Favorite "Classic" Approach

[KidOni]

Graal 2007

[Tyhm]

Originally Posted by Minoc

He could have given full hearts instead of heras. Having a long hard quest for 1/5 of a heart is unreasonable.

Yeah, but what determines A Long Hard Quest really? Everyone submitted a Long Hard Quest in my day, and it was usually "If you has the gyuild tag you gets 5 fullhearts and goldsword lolz!"
So, everyone gets a hera, and instead of "17 heart-chests and the game's full", it became "152 hera-chests, 17 hera huts, and you can add more heras than you need to make other quests optional".
But I was all for making the game longer at all costs, so.

[DustyPorViva]

I would have preferred breaking full hearts into 2 small pieces(like Zelda does it, but just 2 instead of 4), as it makes sense with the ying yang and all.

That would have allowed 34 quests just for health.

[Tyhm]

Aesthetically you have a fine point; mathematically that's not a whole lot of quests. But towards the end we were just stringing together miniquests anyway - you finish This quest to get This key to enter This quest to get That key to get This glove and That lodestone to get That weapon to get to the boss of the First quest to get Magic...
So maybe.
The recurring problem is keeping Classic loaded with quests without having Way Too Many Hearts, Way Too Much Damage, Way Too Many Weapon Choices, or Way Too Many Keys. Figure you start with 3 hearts and a sword that can kill another newbie in 6 hits. You go up to 6 hearts, and you're balanced against the blood axe; 9 hearts and you're still good for 6 strikes from the Lizardon sword (though at this point, newbies die in 2 hits...not sporting). 20 hearts, that's 13 hits? Spars would take bloody AGES. (Add in that I never intended to let people bring the Gold Sword Out of The Golden Land - it was going to be a special Hardcore Only Quest/Spar dimension, so you didn't have 6 heart midbies Still Dying In 3 Hits...)
Then you look at, you've got the Bow/Fireball/Fireblast/Nukeshot/Triplebow/Autobow(/Godbow/Horsebow), Bowlingball, Bomb/Superbomb/Joltbomb, Mace, Bird/Birdshot, Magic, Hammer...how many flavors of spar do you want?!
Then on the nonweapon side there's the Zorbi Ring, Warp Ring, Fishingrod, conch shell, quivver, bomb bag, lodestone amulet, lodeglove, fishbowl, Ratform, GC Toys, (boots) - for the most part these could be Not Even Weapons, they could count as Keys, but they had to be fireable, and had to take up Extra Quest Space. I used to have a tally, and man, in the heyday, it was hard to keep enough rewards for all the quests...them were the days...

Incidentally, if I had the coding skills these new whippersnappers have - give an option to switch out Main and Sub weapon, then you can make Race a largely academic issue. Be a Zorbi who swings a hammer, whatever. (Zorbi wand was fun, I totally want one if I come back.)

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Aesthetically you have a fine point; mathematically that's not a whole lot of quests. But towards the end we were just stringing together miniquests anyway - you finish This quest to get This key to enter This quest to get That key to get This glove and That lodestone to get That weapon to get to the boss of the First quest to get Magic...
So maybe.
The recurring problem is keeping Classic loaded with quests without having Way Too Many Hearts, Way Too Much Damage, Way Too Many Weapon Choices, or Way Too Many Keys. Figure you start with 3 hearts and a sword that can kill another newbie in 6 hits. You go up to 6 hearts, and you're balanced against the blood axe; 9 hearts and you're still good for 6 strikes from the Lizardon sword (though at this point, newbies die in 2 hits...not sporting). 20 hearts, that's 13 hits? Spars would take bloody AGES. (Add in that I never intended to let people bring the Gold Sword Out of The Golden Land - it was going to be a special Hardcore Only Quest/Spar dimension, so you didn't have 6 heart midbies Still Dying In 3 Hits...)
Then you look at, you've got the Bow/Fireball/Fireblast/Nukeshot/Triplebow/Autobow(/Godbow/Horsebow), Bowlingball, Bomb/Superbomb/Joltbomb, Mace, Bird/Birdshot, Magic, Hammer...how many flavors of spar do you want?!
Then on the nonweapon side there's the Zorbi Ring, Warp Ring, Fishingrod, conch shell, quivver, bomb bag, lodestone amulet, lodeglove, fishbowl, Ratform, GC Toys, (boots) - for the most part these could be Not Even Weapons, they could count as Keys, but they had to be fireable, and had to take up Extra Quest Space. I used to have a tally, and man, in the heyday, it was hard to keep enough rewards for all the quests...them were the days...

Incidentally, if I had the coding skills these new whippersnappers have - give an option to switch out Main and Sub weapon, then you can make Race a largely academic issue. Be a Zorbi who swings a hammer, whatever. (Zorbi wand was fun, I totally want one if I come back.)

34 quests is A LOT of quests for just hearts. Has Classic EVER, in all its combined quests, reached 34 quests? Not to mention there should be more offered than hearts, so that gives even more quests for just items.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

The recurring problem is keeping Classic loaded with quests without having Way Too Many Hearts, Way Too Much Damage, Way Too Many Weapon Choices, or Way Too Many Keys.

Can Classic have content that is not quests while staying classic?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Way Too Many Keys

I tried to offer a solution (http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=81096) but well..

[Tyhm]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I tried to offer a solution (http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=81096) but well..

*L* That too, but I meant keys in the old addinventory sense of "set dungeonkey1got". Flags with graphics. There were a few weapons that weren't too useful In The Wide World, you just needed them to get through the same quest you got 'em in.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

*L* That too, but I meant keys in the old addinventory sense of "set dungeonkey1got". Flags with graphics. There were a few weapons that weren't too useful In The Wide World, you just needed them to get through the same quest you got 'em in.

Things just need better organization.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Things just need better organization.

A pretty basic Zelda-like replacement of the Q window could just display a bunch of flags graphically.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Loriel

A pretty basic Zelda-like replacement of the Q window could just display a bunch of flags graphically.

Oh but that wouldn't be Classic.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Oh but that wouldn't be Classic.

It could be made to look just like the old Q menu, except a separate section at the bottom, which also looks just like the old Q menu.

[Tyhm]

Classic is a fallacy. You can't get back the innocence, patience, and low expectations you had when you started playing Graal. Super Mario Bros isn't the game you remember either.

Classic as a standing attempt to mimic Zelda 3 and a milieu of similar 2d games, on the other hand...

Further, True Classic had all the keys appear on the left, right under the Hypothetical Magic Meter.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Super Mario Bros isn't the game you remember either.

I still play through Super Mario World (generation gap blah blah) every once in a while

Further, True Classic had all the keys appear on the left, right under the Hypothetical Magic Meter.

Yeah but that is bound to get annoying after you accumulate a few keys and stop doing the related quests.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Classic is a fallacy. You can't get back the innocence, patience, and low expectations you had when you started playing Graal. Super Mario Bros isn't the game you remember either.

Classic as a standing attempt to mimic Zelda 3 and a milieu of similar 2d games, on the other hand...

Further, True Classic had all the keys appear on the left, right under the Hypothetical Magic Meter.

This is true, however, I doubt anyone would mind a fix to the annoying things like the inventory(real inventory, not the qmenu).

[DutchGuy]

i miss the classic where you had major guild wars on mod fort. Where laming was a part of the war, where everyone could fight in, laggers, people on slow connection. Everything changed when when suddenly classic (or whoever) decided to add more forts, to babord and in destiny, and those small changes were the effect of the downfall of classic as we know it. Suddenly we had more places to war on, when mod fort was normal to go to.
Furthur i remember a big house that was under babords entrance (from osl) and ofcourse the singles bar under the bridge, where you had to pay toll to enter.

Nowadays classic is full of " 2000" leftovers who think they can bring a change of the current content to what it "was" . While every other server has moved on to reality and that is the modern day.

We need to remember classic for what it was and respect that. And accept that it will never be as it was. Other servers are now popular because they changed their inputs every once in a while to what is popular for the people nowadays, while classic has always been more of a server for old stuff.
People nowadays dont care about old stuff, and look for new and fun adventures.

The thing i miss on every server though , something Classic did have was a community to die for.

Everyone is so focused on gameplay that interacting has become kind of a second plan to most people. Where Classic always had a interactive community where everyone talked to eachother no matter what.
Now servers are full of loners.

I respect the period when tyhm used his skills to make classic the way it was. and i Accept the fact that classic is at the bottom of a pit.

[Tyhm]

Dutch - you've touched on something I figured out pretty late into the game, that fun is a factor of scarcity, and doubling the supply of something (even by popular request) kills the demand. Mod Fort was popular, so I made more. It was fun making a Vampire Tower, but since I didn't have access to global scripting (except through Server Strings) I never got to take the next step, using the Forts as a sort of Semifinal and creating another tier where Fort-Owning Guilds could war, sending major ranged attacks against the other forts, turf wars for supremacy, etc....
which wasn't apparently what made Mod Fort fun anyway, which just goes to show you can't fix everything with clever scripting. :-D

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

you can't fix everything with clever scripting.

You probably just were not applying enough of it.

[Bell]

With each new generation of players comes a new 'favorite'. This has been rehashed hundreds of times over but what the hay, I'll say it again. You can never please any of the people all the time so my advice to Thor is to develop Classic into what he wants and start ignoring all the complainers. They often just log on, see piece of tiling is different and go drama queen over the change. Yes, the singles bar was a cool hangout, during its time, but by the time it was replaced you rarely saw anyone in it. Angel Clan headquarters rocked for warring but now.... dead empty and has been for years. But don't touch it or you'll be driven from the hallowed halls of Graal as a traitor. When was the last time supernicks spar was popular? When was the last time any of you actually went to Avalon? But I can assure you if those places were removed there would be riots in the streets. Speaking of which, where's Amos, haven't had a good bridge protest in years either.

There has been some really nice content made by many developers over the past few years but it sits gathering dust because someone saw it ahead of its release and started a massive protest over how it wasn't "Classic" enough. Shame people are so dead set on revival that it only results in its demise.

Seriously though, this isn't actually a problem confined to Classic. This happens on every server that someone once called home. Life changes, games change. Either you live with that or you move on.

[Oni]

this sux
i have so many ideas
but thors hates most of them
and people say
"NO iTS NOT CLASSIC"

so nothing new can be tryd out becasue its auto not classic? so basically nothing can be released or destroyed?

cant classic get over the passed and make a new server
becasue the current one = DEAD liek yo grandmama

[Tyhm]

If Classic gets over the past and makes a new server, it'll be a new server. That's how we get stuff like Zone, and all the good and bad that implies.

Then someone else will make a Classic Classic server, and they'll get shut down officially or unofficially, because there has to be a bizarre bloodline tying any Level13.graal to the original Server, you can't just break the line of succession.

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by Bell

POST

What is it about expansion do you people not understand? You don't have to replace Classic landmarks when there is plenty of EMPTY SPACE all over Classic. It seems like the people in charge see a location on the server and think "this place isn't that important, I'll just drop one of my own projects into the level, nostalgia be damned!". It has been going on since the new overworld was released. I think the people in charge see these places as prime real estate for their own version of Classic. Is it because the people in charge can rebuild in their own image, to ensure their own place in Classic's history? I cannot say for certain, but if so they need to break from that way of thinking.

So what if Angel Clan doesn't see as many people as it did back in the day? What is so much important than it that you need to replace AC? Why remove the Singles Bar and replace it with the GC studios (don't get me started on the stupidity of the location)? I just don't get it.

[Bell]

My point proven by maximus. It wouldn't of mattered what real estate I said, the end result would of been the same. I recall Thor readding a pond by Zols and those that didn't remember it being there having a hissy fit. It was an area the equivalent of 20 tiles maybe and the drama that came from it was ridiculous.

Thor is not trying to remake it in his image. He is trying to remake parts of old classic that were coveted by so many but add in some fresh, new things so its not so out of date. It would just be nice for once in Graalian history if a developer didn't have to get bashed against walls for their effort when they even begin discussions of some actual change.

Ever wonder why it is Classic has been through so many dev admins in the past few years? Because they can only handle the abuse they get for so long before they decide it isn't worth their time and effort to continue for people that will be completely ungrateful in the end anyway.

[Tyhm]

There's always room in Big City. So much, in fact, that I sank the damn thing.

Here's the central Graal Classic Paradox: Nostalgia. (I renamed Silmarilia for a reason).

What happened to Big City?
I put a volcano in the middle and sank it.
But I liked it!
It's still available in Nostalgia.
But it's not the same! The backpal is different!
Fine, I'll turn off the backpal and setpics so it uses the old pics1.png
It's not the same! It's in an alternate world, not the main world! I won't be happy until it's on the main world!
Fine, I'll revert the entire server until it's exactly the way you remember it.
But nobody's playing! When I remember it there were lots of people playing all the time! And it's not the only server anymore!

Classic was The Only Server. You can't make Graal2000 work, because it's not The Only Server like it Should be; it's not even An Official Server, it's a derivative work, a knockoff.

Some of us won't be happy until Unixmad descendeth from on high and says "Okay, Graal is now just one server, this one right here, and it's free to play forever, go have fun." That's the only True Classic.

Realistically speaking, currently, there's only Classic's Derivatives:
The Quest Server
The Newbie Server
The Free Server
The Oldschool Server
The Official Server
and The Server I Got My House On

Most of these are mutually exclusive....

I'd love to come back and make an Oldschool Free Newbie Official Server people can put their houses on, but that'd require Unixmad to care enough to promise not to permaban me for implementing a Newbie Password System...(and, you know, a staff, and money to host a server, and time...;-D)

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

When I remember it there were lots of people playing all the time!

So really the solution is to close down all other servers.

[DutchGuy]

my favorite classic approach is bring back tyhm.
get rid of all the cool-acting admin dudes who feel important while not contributing anything. give tyhm 2 years to work on something big.
then return.

[draygin]

I'd work for Tyhm again in a heart beat. I always felt his vision of classic was the most in line with what classic really is/was.

I have considerable level making skills. Granted they would be for the most part underutilized in a true classic project. It's still possible to make good levels witha classic look/theme.

He'd have to put up with my endless jokes regarding what Tyhm it is.

[DutchGuy]

we should vouch for tyhm to return.

[Tyhm]

Meh, won't do me any good if I DO come back; the owners still won't listen to me, we won't have a default codebase for movement/combat/baddies, and even if I put Classic back to the levels we all remember and love, nobody's gonna be playing it 'cuz graal.com goes to "Zone, Kingdoms, or Poker!" - and without Owner Approval I can't make it The Free Intro Server at Classic.Graal.Com or anything.

[DutchGuy]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Meh, won't do me any good if I DO come back; the owners still won't listen to me, we won't have a default codebase for movement/combat/baddies, and even if I put Classic back to the levels we all remember and love, nobody's gonna be playing it 'cuz graal.com goes to "Zone, Kingdoms, or Poker!" - and without Owner Approval I can't make it The Free Intro Server at Classic.Graal.Com or anything.

then make classic apart from graal, we'll buy off the server itself and make it a free based game:P i dunno

[DustyPorViva]

The only level ever populated is level14. Lets scrap the rest.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by Bell

My point proven by maximus. It wouldn't of mattered what real estate I said, the end result would of been the same. I recall Thor readding a pond by Zols and those that didn't remember it being there having a hissy fit. It was an area the equivalent of 20 tiles maybe and the drama that came from it was ridiculous.

What do you mean was? It's still there.

Thor is not trying to remake it in his image. He is trying to remake parts of old classic that were coveted by so many but add in some fresh, new things so its not so out of date. It would just be nice for once in Graalian history if a developer didn't have to get bashed against walls for their effort when they even begin discussions of some actual change.

There's plenty of empty houses all over the overworld but rather than using those buildings and areas, every single LAT Admin has decided it'd be better to get rid of what's already there while the overworld remains huge for no reason.

Ever wonder why it is Classic has been through so many dev admins in the past few years? Because they can only handle the abuse they get for so long before they decide it isn't worth their time and effort to continue for people that will be completely ungrateful in the end anyway.

The dev admins get this abuse because they were seeking to become dev admin for their own gains rather than for the good of the players. Every single Dev Admin and admittedly a vast amount of the dev team have come to become staff for selfish reasons, looking for praise for the work they're doing.

When it doesn't come, you see it as them being upset at people being ungrateful, I see it as them being upset because no one liked their work that was going to revolutionize and save Classic and permanently attach their name to the server.

which is kinda pointless cause we'd be lucky to see Graal last another year or so with a heavy hitting recession and parents finally restricting their children from using credit cards

[BigBear3]

Graal The Adventure

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by Bell

My point proven by maximus. It wouldn't of mattered what real estate I said, the end result would of been the same. I recall Thor readding a pond by Zols and those that didn't remember it being there having a hissy fit. It was an area the equivalent of 20 tiles maybe and the drama that came from it was ridiculous.

I hardly see how I'm proving your point. I fail to see the connection between a simple edit (your example) and the complete removal of a certain area (which I am complaining about).

Originally Posted by Bell

Thor is not trying to remake it in his image. He is trying to remake parts of old classic that were coveted by so many but add in some fresh, new things so its not so out of date. It would just be nice for once in Graalian history if a developer didn't have to get bashed against walls for their effort when they even begin discussions of some actual change.

I'm not sure if you're directing this at me, I don't ever recall criticizing him for that. I am talking about the big things, I don't care about a revision to a level (as long as it has some semblance to what it was originally). I'm talking about big things, like how you suggested the LAT team should remove SN (a long standing Classic landmark) for something unimportant.

Originally Posted by Bell

Ever wonder why it is Classic has been through so many dev admins in the past few years? Because they can only handle the abuse they get for so long before they decide it isn't worth their time and effort to continue for people that will be completely ungrateful in the end anyway.

I'm going to agree with Kevin on this one. They don't quit because of the abuse (they try to trigger seizures in the abusers!). They quit because they're shocked to learn that all the work they said we wanted was actually hated and the complete opposite of what we've been asking for.

[xnervNATx]

WOW whoever Voted on CLASSIC is a retard classic suck today , only gta was good