Notice to Playerworld Projects Lacking Funding

HoudiniMan · #1 01-29-2008, 12:29 PM

All playerworld project managers please note:

If your project is lacking funding and you cannot afford to (re)subscribe for your own server I highly recommend you do not upload your project to another player's server!

Once you load your content onto a server it belongs to that server according to Graal's content usage policy. At that point, the only thing protecting you from theft is the renter's word.

We can not force removal of content if you want to move the content, quit the project, or have a falling out with the owner of a server you are squatting on.

We do, on a case-by-case basis, try to prevent people from being taken advantage of. We do not condone a player uploading content only to be fired/removed from the project - and we will force removal in these situations - but they are difficult to investigate and do not guarantee the rights to your content remain with you.

Some players have asked about transferring subscriptions to servers from one player to another. This is not possible. You can not rent a server for anybody but yourself. If you have a sponsor, please privately work out a transfer of funds so you can rent your own server. I recommend Paypal's "request money" feature.

GraalOnline can not and will not enforce any agreements made between players.

Switch · #2 01-29-2008, 02:18 PM

Well said :o

MrAnonymous_P2P · #3 01-29-2008, 03:56 PM

This is helpful.

Rufus · #4 01-29-2008, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

Once you load your content onto a server it belongs to that server according to Graal's content usage policy.

Link?

Pimmeh · #5 01-29-2008, 04:20 PM

Yeah, link please.
And what about stealing? I'd like someone to give something straightforward on this one.

Bell · #6 01-30-2008, 02:52 AM

http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=49824

Rufus · #7 01-30-2008, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bell

http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=49824

"Outdated" - Most of the PWA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

Graal's content usage policy.

..is what I'm after.

TSAdmin · #8 01-30-2008, 05:20 AM

I was going to post the exact same link Bell did, but did notice that little part Houdini added to it that you pointed out about "According to GraalOnlines content useage policy", so I went through all the GO rules and policies I could find, :s I couldn't find one specifically about content useage.

HoudiniMan · #9 01-30-2008, 07:57 PM

It simply isn't written out anywhere, which is why I made the thread.

We currently have a project under way in the PWA forum to put together an official outline of the policies of content rights and stuff like that, so it's coming soon

Pimmeh · #10 01-30-2008, 08:00 PM

So wait, since we never approved with anything readable, you cannot force any ownership over our uploaded content?

Bell · #11 01-30-2008, 08:51 PM

The policy used has been the one that Sparks did and was approved years ago. It just needs updated as there are so many more playerworld projects these days and staff hierarchy has changed. So yes, it is outdated which is why we are currently working on changing it. The basic principle is still the same though. If you make and upload anything to a server it belongs to that server alone and permission is needed for it to be used elsewhere.

I'm not sure where you mean there is nothing for anyone to actually read when there clearly is something for you to read though.

Reviving A Playerworld Project:
Any files uploaded into the file-manager becomes the sole property of Graalonline. When a player works for a playerworld as a 'Staff' member all files given to the manager to upload, or uploaded themselves, becomes property of Graalonline. Temporary usage rights (until shutdown of a playerworld) is given to the playerworld manager while the playerworld is online. This right of usage is terminated when the playerworld is shut down. If someone wants to use any of the files again (i.e.: Playerworld Revive Project) Graal and its representatives must be contacted before they can be uploaded again. To gain usage rights to any Playerworld previously online, the individual must contact Graal's representative and the last active manager(s) to gain permission and usage rights to the files of a shutdown Playerworld.

Rufus · #12 01-30-2008, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

It simply isn't written out anywhere, which is why I made the thread.

We currently have a project under way in the PWA forum to put together an official outline of the policies of content rights and stuff like that, so it's coming soon

LOL you can't post a thread quoting some usage policy that doesn't actually exist and expect people to take it seriously.

Crow · #13 01-30-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pimmeh

So wait, since we never approved with anything readable, you cannot force any ownership over our uploaded content?

Seems logic. Is and probably will apply.

cbk1994 · #14 01-30-2008, 11:56 PM

Funny thing is if you got mad at Graal, you could get your lawyer, and there are MANY things you could sue over.

Support center hacked
Absurd content policies WHICH DON'T EXIST
etc

Tigairius · #15 01-31-2008, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbkbud

Funny thing is if you got mad at Graal, you could get your lawyer, and there are MANY things you could sue over.

Support center hacked
Absurd content policies WHICH DON'T EXIST
etc

Unfortunately they're not liable for any of that because you don't own the account names. You're just renting them from GraalOnline.

HoudiniMan · #16 01-31-2008, 12:44 AM

Don't confuse ownership of content with the right to use it on our system.

GraalOnline owns the content, because that is in the User Agreement.

This thread is just to clarify how GraalOnline chooses to allow content to be used on it's servers. The policy doesn't need to be written down or posted to be in effect, it is just a record of what to expect for your convenience.

We of course have the right to make exceptions to policies as we see fit, that is what the PWA is for. We don't have the power to change or ignore the User Agreement, as that is a legal binding contract between Graal and the players.

So to answer your questions:

Does Graal really own old content?
Yes, read the User Agreement

Does the old policy Spark posted in 2003 still apply?
In parts, there are places where we have improved policies that haven't been re-written. It's a combination of old policy, new policy, and common sense.

What can I expect in ______ situations?
That is why the updated policy will be posted. It's a guideline to help people with playerworld projects know what we allow in the game and what we don't. Also, how disputes are generally handled to remain fair.

The added benefit of posting the standard operating procedures is the chance for critique from the player base. There are some things we have to do a certain way, and others are more flexible. When I post the procedures the PWA follow it will let us discuss them more in-depth.

Rufus · #17 01-31-2008, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

GraalOnline owns the content, because that is in the User Agreement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

We don't have the power to change or ignore the User Agreement, as that is a legal binding contract between Graal and the players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

Does Graal really own old content?
Yes, read the User Agreement

Link?

napo_p2p · #18 01-31-2008, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rufus

Link?

The Graal User Agreement: http://www.graalonline.com/docs/agreement
(The only thing titled 'User Agreement' I could find).

However, I do not see anything about content rights.

Also,

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

We don't have the power to change or ignore the User Agreement, as that is a legal binding contract between Graal and the players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graal User Agreement

LINUX Cyberjoueurs may revise this Agreement at any time, and such revision shall be effective thirty (30) days after posting of the revised Agreement at this location.

Twinny · #19 01-31-2008, 04:44 AM

Kinda annoying, ay? You hear about these phantom documents so damn often.

coreys · #20 01-31-2008, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Unfortunately they're not liable for any of that because you don't own the account names. You're just renting them from GraalOnline.

we have a winrar

Inverness · #21 01-31-2008, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pimmeh

So wait, since we never approved with anything readable, you cannot force any ownership over our uploaded content?

I dare you to try any legal action against Graal with something like that then laugh in your face when you get your ass handed to you.

I always find it amusing when people (Yen) think they can take legal action for stuff they upload to Graal.

Ziro_of_the_Turks · #22 01-31-2008, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

I always find it amusing when people (Yen) think they can take legal action for stuff they upload to Graal.

Why's it funny? Didn't some people actually succeed in doing this, one way or another? Antago or Pachuka? Maybe someone else?

Codein · #23 02-02-2008, 01:23 PM

I always thought that any piece of work made by yourself is copyrighted to you. Since there's no real agreement and most of the the players here "agreed" to this contract far under the legal age of being able to agree to one, I'd say it's all null and void.

I'm not sure though. I'll have to ask a friend of mine who's in to Law.

Bell · #24 02-02-2008, 11:36 PM

Copyright law is far more complicated than "I make it and its mine". There are also degrees of ownership in comparison to what you can actually use in court. Personally I feel if you're that worried about it you should a. Not develop on a server if you're that worried about it or b. Pay a fee and check with an international copyright attorney for specific details.

cyan3 · #25 02-03-2008, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Codein

I always thought that any piece of work made by yourself is copyrighted to you. Since there's no real agreement and most of the the players here "agreed" to this contract far under the legal age of being able to agree to one, I'd say it's all null and void.

I'm not sure though. I'll have to ask a friend of mine who's in to Law.

In England the copyright law's state all work you create or design is copyrighted to you automatily the second you create it. But like Bell said if you make something for somebody in this case a manager of a server they have the right to use it but it's hard to say who really owns it.

HoudiniMan · #26 02-03-2008, 12:06 AM

The PWA can't officially comment on any issues of copyright, because we're not lawyers. Our jurisdiction is how content is used within the game.

Kirble · #27 02-03-2008, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyan3

In England the copyright law's state all work you create or design is copyrighted to you automatically the second you create it.

This is correct. However, there are precautions that can be taken. This method cannot be used in the United States as it is dismissed as feasible copyright evidence: In the UK, you can send all of your work through, printed off I'd imagine, via registered mail and make sure it is post-marked, this provides proof that it is your work and shows the date that it was made. However, I can see the obvious downfalls to this due to levels being able to be accessed etc. This is known as the "Poor man's copyright"

However, as cyan3 stated, once the piece of work has been created, it is under copyright to the creator, as in the UK and Australia it states that a binding copyright for a limited period of time is set upon a piece of work as long as some skill, labour and judgement has gone into the piece.
I am not too sure about the length nor the relevance of this to the United States.

In the case where the work is uploaded to a server, I would imagine that the work, once passed on to a 3rd member.. I.e. other than your person in order to use it on their own property (In this case a Graal server) that the copyright is null and void and the piece then would belong to whomever has control of the server file-system. Which would be the server owner, unless Linux Cyberjouers considers this to be their data seeing as it is on THEIR file-system but it is being leased to a 3rd party.

Codein · #28 02-03-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirble

This is correct. However, there are precautions that can be taken. This method cannot be used in the United States as it is dismissed as feasible copyright evidence: In the UK, you can send all of your work through, printed off I'd imagine, via registered mail and make sure it is post-marked, this provides proof that it is your work and shows the date that it was made. However, I can see the obvious downfalls to this due to levels being able to be accessed etc. This is known as the "Poor man's copyright"

However, as cyan3 stated, once the piece of work has been created, it is under copyright to the creator, as in the UK and Australia it states that a binding copyright for a limited period of time is set upon a piece of work as long as some skill, labour and judgement has gone into the piece.
I am not too sure about the length nor the relevance of this to the United States.

In the case where the work is uploaded to a server, I would imagine that the work, once passed on to a 3rd member.. I.e. other than your person in order to use it on their own property (In this case a Graal server) that the copyright is null and void and the piece then would belong to whomever has control of the server file-system. Which would be the server owner, unless Linux Cyberjouers considers this to be their data seeing as it is on THEIR file-system but it is being leased to a 3rd party.

Well, saved me asking you over MSN xD

Twinny · #29 02-03-2008, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

The PWA can't officially comment on any issues of copyright, because we're not lawyers. Our jurisdiction is how content is used within the game.

Considering the only comments we've heard about ownership and copyright has been from pwas......

cbk1994 · #30 02-03-2008, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twinny

Considering the only comments we've heard about ownership and copyright has been from pwas......

So true

HoudiniMan · #31 02-04-2008, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twinny

Considering the only comments we've heard about ownership and copyright has been from pwas......

Ownership in the sense of rights to use the content on Graal.

Unixmad told us that content uploaded to Graal is Graal property, and it's not my department to validate that claim.

I seem to remember it being in the license agreement too, but I don't see it now... I'll be sure to bring it up when I talk to him next.

cbk1994 · #32 02-04-2008, 02:09 AM

If it's not in now, does it state anywhere anything about it? Otherwise I want my content back and I'll talk to my parent's lawyer if I see it anywhere.

Twinny · #33 02-04-2008, 02:42 AM

Unixmad should hire the services of an international lawyer and get a lovely agreement and contract written out to be used when players register and perhaps when they first use RC on a server. I see Graals ownership as, "We own the actual files you upload on the server but you still own the intellectual property". Since this agreement is not visible anywhere or official (You can't call implied here), I find it to be that the players are giving servers and, by extension Graal Online, a limited license to display/use the uploaded content. Places like Myspace and Facebook would use this agreement.

This situation needs to be recitified!

HoudiniMan · #34 02-04-2008, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbkbud

If it's not in now, does it state anywhere anything about it? Otherwise I want my content back and I'll talk to my parent's lawyer if I see it anywhere.

Legal threats should go through the support center.

Novo · #35 02-04-2008, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

Legal threats should go through the support center.

Haha... I can guess how long that one's going to take to get a reply!

Alternatively, I'd be curious as to whether it is exclusive rights to redistribution and modification... Or they're non-exclusive rights. In this sense... Could one use their Intellectual Property elsewhere?

Pimmeh · #36 02-04-2008, 09:33 AM

Hm, for now, since there is no one who can validate this legal claim, I think that I will shut down my server before you guys can get any ownership over it...
I think...

zokemon · #37 02-04-2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

Legal threats should go through the support center.

That's signature worthy. Any takers?

Pimmeh · #38 02-04-2008, 01:35 PM

Mememe! Damn, I realized it at the moment that you posted it

Skyld · #39 02-04-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbkbud

If it's not in now, does it state anywhere anything about it? Otherwise I want my content back and I'll talk to my parent's lawyer if I see it anywhere.

You've got to be kidding me.

What exactly do you think Cyberjoueurs are going to do with your work? Target your work specifically, steal it and put it into some other project? Sell it?

I'm intrigued to hear what you think becomes of your work just because the ownership is transferred. Mommy's lawyer won't help you.

Inverness · #40 02-04-2008, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zokemon

That's signature worthy. Any takers?

I'll help myself to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbkbud

If it's not in now, does it state anywhere anything about it? Otherwise I want my content back and I'll talk to my parent's lawyer if I see it anywhere.

Your parents' lawyer is an it?

You provide Invy with much lulz.