Old Overworld Help

[Luda]

I'm just wondering, how many people would come help us rescript the old overworld/most of the old insides too?

I'm converting the outsides (soon to fix most tile errors)

Here's a screenshot of what i've converted so far(CC and the rest of nimda will be added as soon as i expand the gmap)

Master Storm says:
"But we need new content to please the new people too, it's a difficult situation."

In your replies say wether you would want new content or old content, and if you would like to help.

[Polo]

Theres lots of parts which are just wierd/ugly/inconsistent (like the water). Whilst the old map may please a few old players, it's not necessarily appealing to new players, which at the end of the day, is what we need. Theres also the problem that a lot of the old content its very basic/broken, and would need a lot of touching up. Scripting in particular would be very difficult because of all the changes since some of the was made (NPC Server, GS2).

You then have to add all the new content that's been released, and that just ends up changing what you have. I guess most of you can appreciate how different the overworld has looked each year because of all the changes.

Eventually you end up taking a HUGE ammount of time, when instead you can get very similar results by retouching up the best parts from the old overworld, and integrating them into the new one.

Just my 2 pennies.

I should probably add though, following discussion here, that if people really do want it, and there will be benefits to doing it, then I'm certainly not going to try and stop it.

[nikomi946]

1. Ugly is in the eye of the beholder however I agree that some of it really isn't necessary to restore.
2. Old quests ARE new quests to new players. Why not use the basis of some of these old quests to form new quests.
3. We've waited about 2 years now for all these new quests to materialize and they never seem to make final stages so whats more time.
4. Our current overworld is getting to detailed and path oriented which takes away from its Classic style. It becomes more of the modernized playerworlds.
5. We care more about content than land mass in the end. Haven't many of the old NPC's already been converted, just waiting for a home for them to be placed in?

[Rufus]

This overworld is an updated version of what I'd call Classic, this is in my era as is many other players on Graal right now - this is personally what I would like to see back.

Although I would like it back, as Bell said "ugly is in the eye of the beholder" which I agree with. I don't think some areas need to be added back and some need to be changed to go along with the whole scheme of things, such as the Ninji isle, which I personally hated due to it's shape. I don't however agree with what Bell said about the paths as although this is Classic, it's time to evolve a bit and as the old cliche states, change is good!

Quests are a big issue as it's something to do, again I agree with Bell. I suggest you take old ideas and refresh them, learn from the direction Graal2001 is going.

I can help, and have my own little help on side too so yes, I agree with this and hope it goes ahead

[RiffMetal]

Classic isn't CLASSIC if the CLASSIC material is replaced with MODERN material.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by RiffMetal

Classic isn't CLASSIC if the CLASSIC material is replaced with MODERN material.

So we're stuck with what we have now forever?

[raymond]

I feel that the old overworld should be put back in place, but the houses and such on it should be given new interiors designed by the players, as well as new quests. That way classic stays classic, while giving the new players that more modern feel.

[Door427]

I think I agree with Bell the most here, although I think that Rufus has a rather good point. If making a few compromises are necessary to bring in more people, then please make them, it's certainly better than being stuck with the horrendous void of a server we have at the moment.

Still, being a (apparently wrongly self proclaimed) oldbie, I feel that sticking to the old is a winning situation. I loved Graal back then, and I honestly don't think that there is really all that much that can be done to make it 'move with the times.' I mean, it's a friggin 2d MMO, people play expecting it to be old school to some extent. No way of getting around that. It's a rather cool theme, I think.

[p2p_Sir_Link]

I think everyone has realized that I will support this, and I definitely will.

I'll do anything I can to help, and it seems Luda already has an idea of what I can do, which, for the first time in quite awhile, I'll actually have time to do.

It will mean the people of Classic will see me quite less, though.

[Minoc]

The old content was better, by old I mean pre-G:TA.

[nikomi946]

It will still be impossible to please all the people any of the time regardless of what content stays or goes but I think there can be some compromise made to fit the majority of the players. Life is filled with compromise and this game is no differant. First off its going to take input from players on both fronts, not just those that complain about what they don't like. Changes take some getting used to and often in the long run turn out to be better once you're accustomed to them.

I feel Ray has the right idea here. First impressions are a big part of Classic, people log on and expect to see a certain set of overworld levels. A place they know well and don't have to ask where somethings been moved to or if it even still exists. New players see the advertising of classic as a place they can put their own houses and are excited to make their own mark on a game. They're perfectly happy to add interior space that they can call their own and brag to their friends about. Quests for items and things to do are also key but secondary. Some quests need to be simple, the patience level of many players is short and they want to gather things quickly so they don't feel so much like a noob. Once they settle in and are more comfortable they are willing to go for the harder things to gain.

Classic has always had major quests and mini side quests with seemingly pointless weapon npc's that people like to use. Like the trident, to me it was an annoying and useless item but many people loved it and still complain its not there anymore. Pking, sparring and guild wars will follow along during the natural course of things. Many fort wars started out as 3 or 4 people fighting and ended up turning into massive guild wars with everyone yelling at each other but having fun doing it.

Lets get this thing moving and bring back classic's egostistical playerbase we all despised but loved.
Btw, gs2 scripters needed by the millions for this to work or the few we do have are going to have total and complete nervous breakdowns trying to keep you guys happy.

[newCappa]

according to me i think the continent have been a bit oversized. still i think it looks really good (looks more alive then the old one and i like it), but the size, i mean there are places on the map were players never ever goes. like the northwest mountain, i know that its suppose to be used for questing in the future, but its a bit oversized. and the south part i dont know what to think off.
I would rater split it up and have like 2 continets. Why not divide it into one "old" (bigger) and one "new" (smaller). This is just an idea that pop't-up right now.
Or just bring back the old one and make it look modern (and more alive). that would probelby be the best solution if this can be calld a problem, i would gladly take part and discuss how to change the storyline to fit the old overworld.

[jake13jake]

The new overworld reflects the old overworld. Delta Island and Ninji Castle will be readded eventually (it's going to shrink the south part of the west mountain). Right now, however, we're focusing on quests. Personally, I'm not on Graal much right now for personal reasons, but I still have left people in charge of projects.

[maximus_asinus]

To be quite frank, I don't care for either overworld. I came to the realization/agreement with Tyhm, that community was Classic, and the levels hardly matter, and even if you restore the old overworld, you'll never satisfy everyone. From a LAT perspective, I hope you don't restore the old overworld, it'll be much harder to have my work used and uploaded. With the current overworld, I can mold areas the way I see fit, and introduce new content. I was/am making a small island area that I was going to sneak online eventually, and it'd be much harder to place on the old overworld, most likely linked through a cave. With this overworld, I doubt anyone would object to its addition, as its content, something we're lacking.

I know people are going to be upset with my opinion, but I consider it an soon to be proven fact. You remake the old overworld, upload it, and we'll attract a few more people for a short while, and they'll leave again. Then we'll be stuck with an overworld with a couple hundred levels and only 50 - 60 people playing it. I think we're going to have to update the overworld, to attract new people, trying to keep oldbies is just futile.

[BruceLee2000]

bring on the old

[Tyhm]

I think the overworld looks just fine the way it is. If you happen to find yourself editing a level and say "Oh, wait, we have a tile for that now", by all means, fix the corners here and there...but I wouldn't put any serious effort into it. There are higher priorities in life.

Mind, if all you CAN do is fix the tiling, then sure, go for it.

Regarding what someone said about every player uploading their own quests with their own weapons, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...from experience, let things break. If for example Antago's Trident Quest shatters between versions, put a worker over the front door and update the weaponscript to destroy; itself (or hide itself until it's fixed, whatever). Boo hoo, it's broken - it was a sidequest anyway, it's more important that the main trunk of quests be in good repair. When someone's got time to kill, they can repair it or replace it.
The disturbing trend all through the history of Classic (and I'm more guilty of this than most) is dedicated revisionism: Every LAT, be they admin or Graphics (*coughZERO33cough*) has to leave their mark, they have to Fix things, Replace things, Improve things. So they spend the first year or so of their career going through, ripping out the Newbie House, putting in a new Newbie House, ripping out the first few quests, replacing them with Better, Prettier, More Sensible quests...and by the time they leave, we have much less progress than we would have if they'd just let it be. It's like everyone comes in on different days to paint a room and they all start at the same place. Again, this isn't criticism of the current administration - gods know I replaced the Newbie House five times on my own watch (Brother's House, Gertrude's Orphanage, newbie house, better newbie house, Tule Village...), just general advice.

Recap: don't bother repainting the world map yet. Focus on stuff like the Pyramid, like bringing back Baddies, like filling in the old quests (I'm sure they'll be Updated Old Quests, and the poor gnomes will be uprooted again, but that's just how it goes). The map can be ugly and path-y for a little while if it has to be.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

I think the overworld looks just fine the way it is. If you happen to find yourself editing a level and say "Oh, wait, we have a tile for that now", by all means, fix the corners here and there...but I wouldn't put any serious effort into it. There are higher priorities in life.

Mind, if all you CAN do is fix the tiling, then sure, go for it.

Regarding what someone said about every player uploading their own quests with their own weapons, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...from experience, let things break. If for example Antago's Trident Quest shatters between versions, put a worker over the front door and update the weaponscript to destroy; itself (or hide itself until it's fixed, whatever). Boo hoo, it's broken - it was a sidequest anyway, it's more important that the main trunk of quests be in good repair. When someone's got time to kill, they can repair it or replace it.
The disturbing trend all through the history of Classic (and I'm more guilty of this than most) is dedicated revisionism: Every LAT, be they admin or Graphics (*coughZERO33cough*) has to leave their mark, they have to Fix things, Replace things, Improve things. So they spend the first year or so of their career going through, ripping out the Newbie House, putting in a new Newbie House, ripping out the first few quests, replacing them with Better, Prettier, More Sensible quests...and by the time they leave, we have much less progress than we would have if they'd just let it be. It's like everyone comes in on different days to paint a room and they all start at the same place. Again, this isn't criticism of the current administration - gods know I replaced the Newbie House five times on my own watch (Brother's House, Gertrude's Orphanage, newbie house, better newbie house, Tule Village...), just general advice.

Recap: don't bother repainting the world map yet. Focus on stuff like the Pyramid, like bringing back Baddies, like filling in the old quests (I'm sure they'll be Updated Old Quests, and the poor gnomes will be uprooted again, but that's just how it goes). The map can be ugly and path-y for a little while if it has to be.

Well, my major goal with rescripting systems is to make it so a million quests don't break, and also make the scripts for quests are easier. For instance, when arrows are finally rescripted, the boss of the first quest will break and a few other things as well.

My personal goal for the quality of quests is to make them less one-dimensional. In essence, I'll want the player to have to return to certain rooms in a dungeon, etc. Sardon's Tower was a good example of a well layed-out quest, although not well tiled. The layout for Kulls was also not so bad (once again, the tiling sucked), but unless we finish rescripting projectiles, the old layout just won't work.

EDIT: I'll give an extra example on how important the system working properly is to adding quests. I had to rescript the damage system and the movement system for the Castle Dungeon quest to even come close to any functionality. The now resolved bugs with that quest were caused by reused scripts from the previous system. (ie. I'm not going to put up new content if that content is going to be empty)

[BruceLee2000]

Tyhm ...plz come back to us

<3 tony

[Tyhm]

Yeah...I can't comment on how to script a system...we've all seen my Clientside attempt, it sucked...and it had Stefan's core system to fall back on, at that.
*shrugs* If everything's gonna change, then everything's gotta wait on the system. That's all there is to it. Unless you can make a super-clever Join script such that you can script everything in the game to emulate, and thus update every script in the game at once...like, join standardcommands;, which has IfIWasShot() or something.

I dunno, you're the scripter, I just advise blindly. :-P

Tony, there's no coming back. Sorry. I don't have it in me to take the reins again.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Yeah...I can't comment on how to script a system...we've all seen my Clientside attempt, it sucked...and it had Stefan's core system to fall back on, at that.
*shrugs* If everything's gonna change, then everything's gotta wait on the system. That's all there is to it. Unless you can make a super-clever Join script such that you can script everything in the game to emulate, and thus update every script in the game at once...like, join standardcommands;, which has IfIWasShot() or something.

I dunno, you're the scripter, I just advise blindly. :-P

Tony, there's no coming back. Sorry. I don't have it in me to take the reins again.

Well Tyhm, the largest problem I'm having with LAT is that I assign project leaders and the project leaders can't take charge for themselves. I say, okay, gnome caves, these are my basic instructions, complete them, make everything as good as you can, make your own decisions on how these instructions should be executed. Make sure to reuse some of the old stuff, though I don't want that to be the major focus. Project leaders just don't know what there is to do on the project? Just make up stuff to do, my god. I don't even care if the project leader does any work on the project, just to make sure the work gets done. For such a position you, Tyhm, would certainly be qualified. It's just a pain.

[maximus_asinus]

When I was LAT back in December - January you asked me to finish Gnome Caves (and when I seen the work Floydian did, I was forced to scap everything and start from scratch), you didn't give ANY guildlines. You said make these caves to resemble this poorly drawn out map. I hadn't the slightest idea what to do, and I came back to you for input, and direction several times, and wasn't helped out in the slightest, so I quit and you screwed around with my character. You expect people just to pick up something, with no motivation at all, and create a masterpiece. I think if you want something done, you have to give some detail of what you want. You're the LAT Admin.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

When I was LAT back in December - January you asked me to finish Gnome Caves (and when I seen the work Floydian did, I was forced to scap everything and start from scratch), you didn't give ANY guildlines. You said make these caves to resemble this poorly drawn out map. I hadn't the slightest idea what to do, and I came back to you for input, and direction several times, and wasn't helped out in the slightest, so I quit and you screwed around with my character. You expect people just to pick up something, with no motivation at all, and create a masterpiece. I think if you want something done, you have to give some detail of what you want. You're the LAT Admin.

I'm trying to make development more efficient. I have many projects to worry about, and many projects that I have to face on my own. I give loose guidelines, yes, but in general I'm just worrying about the concept. I wonder how many guidelines Tyhm got when he was told to make Babord... Put this house there, put that house here, make sure there's this and that.

I'd sum up what I'd like to see like this:
We need to make the Gnome Caves. These are the things we need in here for a storyline, other than that I'm giving you the freedom to make all the decisions of what to do and what not to do. You don't have to do all the work yourself; you can assign other LATs some work within the Gnome Caves since you're in charge of the project. Use your own vision here.

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by jake13jake

I'd sum up what I'd like to see like this:
We need to make the Gnome Caves. These are the things we need in here for a storyline, other than that I'm giving you the freedom to make all the decisions of what to do and what not to do. You don't have to do all the work yourself; you can assign other LATs some work within the Gnome Caves since you're in charge of the project. Use your own vision here.

I wish you went into even that amount of detail when I was working on the levels. You never said anything about a storyline, you just gave me a sketch you did in mspaint, which was both confusing, and horribly laid out. As for assigning work to other LATs, at the time we barely had anyone else on the team, Floydian had just quit, and two or three others were just inactive. Nobody had worked with my styling either, so I would of had to go back and redo everything they did.

[Luda]

I'm looking for help, not some discussion about caves.

[Tyhm]

Luda-I hadn't thought you needed it specifically spelled out for you, but those of us who haven't volunteered are saying No. In fact, we're delineating the reasons we suspect it's not the most important thing to focus on and discussing whether or not we're right. If you have some input as to why retiling and reconverting the overworld are important, perhaps more people will be able to help.

Regarding Babord - Rag asked me to put a town there, and walked me along the coast where the world ended. Said 3x3, with an ocean and a harbor. That's why it was always so boxy - I've never been a good tiler (that was Floydian's forte and I was sorry to see him go), and my scripting aptitude was primarily in the form of stubbornness - I won't find an elegant solution, but dammit I'll tweak it until it works. Thus I decided there should be a warehouse district, because I can do warehouses, and a cave, because I can do caves, and LordChimp decided on the pirate ship, and the newbie's ghost's house was just there because big houses take less work than many small houses. I took some house submissions, slapped 'em in there, and it was done.

Then I had to work out a quest involving a cave and some gnomes...for no easily discernable reason...and a moving wall...I think I wound up putting something Behind the moving wall...then there was supposed to be a way to get to Avalon, so the Barrel Ride got badly-scripted in there...notice that there's a rock at the level edges, that was to keep people from drowning on the loading screen...those were the days.

Anyway. Regarding delegation: There are two ways to do it. One, you have a clear picture in your head and have to communicate it exactly to the team leaders. Hopefully they'll get it and make it to specifications. The other, which I learned after two or three years, is to stringently avoid getting any ideas as to what it should look like and telling them so. For instance, Nimda Island had practically no specifications, and came out pretty nice...likewise Floydia Island. On the other hand, I went through 4 or 5 graphics admins trying to get a spire with a cave in it, so the Lizardon Shield Quest could be continued with the second half of the dungeon rising from the dirt near Brothers' House (where, for the purists, the original was. I think.)

IMHO, tell the team where the fences are and how it hooks up. Think Pipe Dream, or any of the clones of the game-where-you-put-together-a-bunch-of-pipes-to-conduct-the-Flooz- from-start-to-finish-with-bonus-points-for-loops: "I need you to build a quest, starting in Graal Castle, working with the Ninji Castle area, it gives the player a L2 sword, and ends back in Graal Castle. The player will have the bow, bomb, L2 gloves and hammer by this point, and since they just got the hammer try to work in plenty of chances for them to use it. The hammer triggers the action wasHammered(), and since I'm still working on the throneroom, lets say the king will say some text and set the flag clientr.StartNinjiQuest when the quest starts, and you can have the quest set the flag clientr.EndNinjiQuest so he'll say something different when they get back."

This is why I never delegated. It was less effort to do it myself. Seriously, all the best stuff from my reign was from when the rest of the LAT got pissed off and threw stuff at me - honds' ship wasn't comissioned, it was hurled at my head. The magic quest went through 3 teams over 2 years, because I kept asking people to work on it; the Ninji Barrel Run was someone's LAT Application if memory serves...I made Bowling as a joke...I think I got Sword to do the gaffing on it (sound work), and he just went out back with a bunch of old bottles and a hammer...