The Decline of Playerworlds

[killerogue]

I'm what you would say a new person to Graal. Started playing in '03 but stopped and restarted late last year. But I wish to for you the people of Graal to read this and please post on your opinions as this has bothered me for quite some time and I decided to write a small summary about my thoughts of a Graal population.

THE DECLINE OF PLAYERWORLDS

Why do we see more and more failing playerworlds?
Why haven't there been any new late additions to Classic? Gold?
Why are so many playerworlds allowed to be spwned? Then failed?

Simple questions with simple answers. But it goes much more deeper than being just simple. I server hop occasionally and I see dead playerworlds all over the list. This makes me internally sad. What has happened to Graal? What happened to the golden days of Graal (98-02)? Why have things gotten out of hand so? I've seen playerworld owners who know nothing about playerworlds much at all. They bought it just to have one. That's such a waste and it's really a shame. What happened to the time when PWA's actually reviewed 3-4 servers at a time and posted the results on forums. What happened to Graal's global staff? I'd say make people pass tests before owning playerworlds not chump tests that involve low skills of knowledge about playerworlds but hard ass tests. Excuse my language. I see Graal as another online MMORPG going down the drain and losing players. Graal used to have a population of 2000+ it's just not interesting anymore. It's simply an addictive. And also with so many dead playerworlds on the list. They should be taken OFF the list (RC list), another simply implemented idea is for PWA's to set down a list of rules or things PWs would have to abide too (See Thread Pwa Guidelines on Classic Servers by Crono) . Make PWs have a monthly check and if not passed shut them down. This would cause people to think twice about buying one without knowledge as well as making the people who own Graal much more money as people would repay to buy their playerworld back. Take this into consideration. Graal can regain it's population with a few good playerworlds out. Stefan I hear talk of a 3D engine to make 3D Pws. This would bring definite players to Graal. Also the few promising playerworlds now (Cynical,Esteria,Crisis?,G2k1 (Go Koni),SH, and others) could bring some long needed FUN to Graal I ask you to read this post people and post YOUR replies and thoughts on my perception of Graal these days. Because it bothers me so much that it's gotten this way.

Thank you,
killerogue

[Sage_Shadowbane]

I agree with you on many points rogue. I am not really sure on what has happened to graal in the past few years...I feel as if its a drug and its draining money from my pockets. The thing is I complain about playing the game yet I persist to upgrade my account time and time again. I think that if the game was f2p(free to play, for those who dont know) like it used to be, we would have a much larger playercount, but of course Stefan and Unix want to make money off of us even though they are probably getting enough money from the failing playerworlds they are recieving which is what, 60$ for like...6 months, a year? I don't know...I could state plenty of reasons why graal is failing and has failed in its past, but there isnt any true point to do it, because in the the end it will cease to be fixed.

[Spark910]

I didn't read what either of you said, but I will later. But I saw your 3 questions and I agree. I think there should be an official playerworld project started, as Graal seriously could do with a new playerworld and one of a good quality, something which is probably best done via the 'official' cyberjoueurs route.

[Crono]

Not monthly but rather, if something is bad the PWA complain. PWA need to regain their iron fist in quality check.

[MysticalDragon]

I agree to an extent.I have not yet seen a playerworld in development in some years(of GREAT quality).Before the P2P thier was players all over trying to complete playerworlds and have the PWA Admin inspect and pass them, Even after P2P this was happening.I'am not to sure why players lack to develop now a days :/.Its confuseing -_-.

Originally Posted by Gerami

Not monthly but rather, if something is bad the PWA complain. PWA need to regain their iron fist in quality check.

Well Spoken!

[Loakey_P2P]

well there is only two way's graal makes money off us . and that's apying for playerworld's and account's . if you start taking away people's playerworld's that they payed for , just couse it's not progressing or what not is ruder then rude . besides probally a failure in service on graal's part . not that im a civil defence attorney or anything , but paying for a service that isnt being given some how seem's wrong to me . weither server's player's buy make it or not should not be anyone's worry but the player doing it .

if you make it extremelly hard for a player to make a player world player's are just gona stop trying , which will sink graal further down the hole . not to mention it will take even longer for player's to make pw's . and people are complaining player world's arnt comeing out as is ? we see more decline in the pw's due to the lack of development player's . which has been on a steady decline for awhile now . instead of being replaced by newer , younger , yet still know what their doing developer's we get noob's who dont even know what the editing tool's are , let alone how to use them .

my suggestion to this would be to make a section or new website that would explain all aspect's of graal development . possable put some time into looking for way's to make it easyer to develop . too many developer's keep leaveing graal and no one is steping up to take their place . for as long as ive been developing on graal ive worked with alot of people . some good developer's , some bad . tho ive been on shaded legend alone for the longest time now , but when i started i worked on a few private server's .

i say a few cuse only a few i stuck with for month's or better . but i spent time jumping around helping server's get started where i could . from that time the problem was that all the quility developer's worked on classic server's . the private server's got the player's who couldnt get job's on classic server's , which sucked . the global team , not to be knocking them but they are a small team working over a large list of server's . even if it wasnt an official graal team , but assemble a team of developer's that can go around the server's and give help to the ones that need it . the point of all of this is , help these server's get going , dont add more restriction's and make the process harder .

[KuJi]

Originally Posted by killerogue

Graal can regain it's population with a few good playerworlds out. Stefan I hear talk of a 3D engine to make 3D Pws. This would bring definite players to Graal. Also the few promising playerworlds now (Cynical,Esteria,Crisis?,G2k1 (Go Koni),SH, and others) could bring some long needed FUN to Graal I ask you to read this post people and post YOUR replies and thoughts on my perception of Graal these days. Because it bothers me so much that it's gotten this way.

Thank you,
killerogue

Hey, several things.
Graal's 2k+ population was when it was free ;o.
G2k1 -> Start of P2P w/ several servers following it so that they can test the npc server stuff (very few maybe 3-4 p2p serversss that existed)

G2k1 was so hawt, infact the first p2p was lent to me for a week by someone on Elven Lands in which I made 100 gralats ( and damn that took FOREVER ) and traded the money for a CC (wtf i was like 9/10?) and got my first p2p (and had it for about 6 months before it went for fraud - damn that 100g was hard ;O)

woops? So then my dad reupgraded it - funfun. Played g2k1 until the pcount dropped to nothing ;(

[warp2ukew]

Graal was much more popular before mandatory P2P. I remember playing N-Pulse with "oodles" of players and it was a lot more fun. Now all we do is sit around in NP SPar :X. Also, I remember whne there were very few developing playerworlds online, and those were private. Those were the ones that usually made it, too. Maloria, for instance, was private until released, as well as Era, Mithica, etc. It was better that way because only playerworlds with quality were even allowed to go online.

[WanDaMan]

The expectations need to be lowerd to get on Classic.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

The expectations need to be lowerd to get on Classic.

I completely agree with this, some of the current Playerworlds dont even have requirements to be on Classic. I also support my idea to have Globals develope playerworlds. Im sure the chances of it are greater, than of a random Private Playerworld.

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

The expectations need to be lowerd to get on Classic.

I've seen this suggestion for a while, but it really doesn't matter if you ask me. At the end of the day, I don't think ANY playerworlds are being submitted for classic in the last x years, no playerworld online is near being a full release, so the criteria is quite irrelevant if there are no playerworlds being submitted to test against.

I do agree they may be a bit high, but it doesn't change the fact that no playerworlds are even getting to the stage when they can be tested against the criteria. I personally think the next playerworld that comes a long, asking to be classic, and has reasonable content and quality will be passed regardless - as Graal needs a new world, so I don't think the criteria for becoming a classic playerworld is the big issue for now.

Changing that wont result in a sudden supply of classic worlds.

[warp2ukew]

Or we need a 2-3 person PWA hiring, and then PWA actually do something. Things got done when CronoIllusion and Psyker manned PWA. Not so much the case anymore.

[killerogue]

I'm glad a majority of you agree with me.

[smirt362]

I think some of it might have to do with a lack of "talented" people to work.
I think scripters are pretty hard to come by.
Level designers arent as hard to come by.
And good graphics people are somewhere in the middle there.

[MysticX2X]

People pay to buy playerworlds. That is their problem. Why would they have to get it checked monthly?

[killerogue]

To make sure it's getting some sort of developement. Get it checked and not passed. IT gets shut down and they rebuy it. More money for Unix and Stefan. Plus it will cause more playerworlds with good developement and ideas to come therefore more players therefore more money for Unix and Stefan. It's a slow process tho.

[MysticX2X]

So if PWAS dont like it after a month of development, it gets shutdown and their money is tooken? Sorry but thats ****ed up. Just let these people develop their worlds, its their money not yours.

[Sum41Freeeeek]

They make money when you pay 50/100 dollars for a playerworld.
I don't think they care if you're doing or not doing something.
If I pay my 100 dollars I want my ****ing year with my playerworld, not get it
shut down.

[bgumeny]

I agree that if someone pays 100 dollars for the server, then it is theres for a year. Whether or not they choose to develop it is their business. I also agree that PWA should tighten up their requirements for active servers.

I also agree with everyone saying that we need a new server on the list. There are many promising servers under development, but they are all very extensive projects with release dates of 1+ years. Perhaps what we need is the release of a classic server that utilizes the current tileset (or perhaps even the old classic one) and focuses more on gameplay such as quests and jobs. While its nice to see lots of new ideas, tilesets, and graphics, a simpler classic server could hold players' attention until these more advanced servers are finally ready to be released.

If all of the developers who say they are concerned that Graal is dying simply pitched in a little time here and there to donate say, a quest or town, or some sort of scripted system or NPC or weapon graphic or gani, and then a few people were dedicated to making sure the content was organized and administered, a Classic server could probably be released fairly quickly.

As a side-note about the lack of developing skills among the newer players these days, I feel that perhaps forums completely dedicated to developing (separate from the GCC forums) might help with this. The more experienced older developers could come together to create tutorials and Q&As with newer players who are interested in breaking into the world of developing. It could be somewhat like the Wiki, only with more interactivity and hands-on learning, which I feel is the most effective way to learn something.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Sum41Freeeeek

They make money when you pay 50/100 dollars for a playerworld.
I don't think they care if you're doing or not doing something.
If I pay my 100 dollars I want my ****ing year with my playerworld, not get it
shut down.

When you Register/Buy a playerworld, it is yours, but you still need to follow the Rules, Manager or not. Im sure GraalOnline as a company would hope alot of Development is getting done on Playerworlds, seeing as how it if it makes it to be a Classic or Gold Server, people are more likely to upgrade due to that server itself.

[MysticX2X]

We know that but i dont want my playerworld shut down and unixmad and stefan running away with my money. If we dont do anything, that is our problem. It still makes money for unixmad and stefan. Graalonline would be a scam if they did that ****.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

We know that but i dont want my playerworld shut down and unixmad and stefan running away with my money.

All players have to do are follow a simple set of rules.

Woah, i didnt read killerogues post, on him suggesting having PWA inspect to see if an inactive playerworld gets shutdown or not. That idea is just...dumb.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by Matt

All players have to do are follow a simple set of rules.

Woah, i didnt read killerogues post, on him suggesting having PWA inspect to see if an inactive playerworld gets shutdown or not. That idea is just...dumb.

Yeah that was what i was talking about. Maybe stans logic could apply to applying to buy a pw but never if the pw is bought. thats a scam.

[Rapidwolve]

Many people pay alot of money for a server that is going to fail, and unix keeps the money. This is one of his best scams :]

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Rapidwolve

Many people pay alot of money for a server that is going to fail, and unix keeps the money. This is one of his best scams :]

My head hurts while wondering how the hell you think that's a scam. Im sure the one of the original ideas while allowing Players to Develop Playerworlds was so that his Global Staff members wouldnt have to concentrate on doing so, and of course to get profits. There's nothing wrong with wanting money, especially when running GraalOnline isnt free. If GraalOnline was shutdown next week because Unixmad couldnt pay, i bet 75% of Graals active players wouldnt know what to do with theirselves. No offense .

Note: Allowing people to buy something, while also setting rules that must be followed, AND a User Agreement, which lets the people know of the rules and consequences (In this case, your playerworld being shutdown permanantly or temporarily), if a rule(s) is broken, is NOT a scam. If im wrong, please prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by killerogue

I'm saying set down some limits. Like after a month they should have at least 20 lvls or so. But if they're making a tileset lower this limit. Like they should set down limits and tests PWs must pass after a month. I'm saying this out of everyone's regard. Because Stone Henge would most likely be shut down after a month because we don't yet have 25 lvls. BUT, we've been developing a tileset so the limit would be lowered for us. Understand? :P

Limits are pointless, as said before, alot of players purchase playerworlds just for the Level4 RC and leadership. For those players who are really skilled and have hopes of actually making their Playerworld to the Classic or Gold Tab, they may not have money to be wasting while getting their world shutdown over a pointless inspection.

Also, i HIGHLY doubt the PWAs would do this, it takes time for 1-2 Playerworld inspections as it is. (No disrespect to the current PWAs) Not all of their lives/time revolve around GraalOnline. Everyone has other things other than Graal going on in their lives.

[killerogue]

I'm saying set down some limits. Like after a month they should have at least 20 lvls or so. But if they're making a tileset lower this limit. Like they should set down limits and tests PWs must pass after a month. I'm saying this out of everyone's regard. Because Stone Henge would most likely be shut down after a month because we don't yet have 25 lvls. BUT, we've been developing a tileset so the limit would be lowered for us. Understand? :P

[killerogue]

This is my point. To stop people from buying PWs for the level 4 and leadership. If you really want to do something with a PW you'd have something considerabley nice done over the course of a month. Hey if it floats your boat expection time could be for every 6 months allowing players to get something really good up. And if they pass limits they don't get shutdown and if it's and inactive piece of crap it get's shut down. And there are so many PWs not being used it's not funny. I've read the RC server list and logged onto about 20 PWs not being used. These should be taken off the list really. Also Mystic stop threatening me over PMs with bats and metal rods or I will have to ban you from my server for 1 month for harassment and put you on ignore. Matt my main point in this article was the state of the Playerworld community currently on Graal.

Edit: Also Zenkou could go classic if they wanted but they have to finish the battle system as everything revolves around it.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by killerogue

This is my point. To stop people from buying PWs for the level 4 and leadership.

My question to you is, why?

Originally Posted by killerogue

Initial Post
I've seen playerworld owners who know nothing about playerworlds much at all. They bought it just to have one. That's such a waste and it's really a shame.

Why does this matter?

These Owners who know nothing about playerworlds, own playerworlds on a private list. What's wrong with that?It let's playerworld owners have fun, learn new things, test ect. It's not like the playerworld is on the Classic Tab .

[bgumeny]

Often people purchase playerworlds just to test things out, not ever having the intention of going classic or gold. As Matt said it is a private tab, and as long as Stefan and Unix have sufficient space to host the servers, it doesn't particularly matter how many inactive servers there are. The only people who see them are the people who are logging onto RC, and then only briefly.

I think the primary concern should be the inactive playerworlds on the CLASSIC tab. There is absolutely no excuse for that. The Classic tab should be full of active servers with consantly evolving content. If GraalOnline were to set standards for the Classic tab and enforce them, then I think we would see an increase in active players.

It is also very difficult for a new player on most of the playerworlds these days, and I think this may also be hurting the playercount. When a new player logs on to most servers, the first thing they hear is "noob" or people making fun of them, especially when they are a trial. If I was on a trial to get a glimpse at what the game was like, and I was treated like garbage, I probably wouldn't pay money for the game either. I think if we want new players to come we, the Graal community, have to reach out and accept them.

[killerogue]

I know. It's just like such a waste to me when so long ago I remember most UC PWs actaually doing something. And in response to the first question like I said it seems like a waste to me. O_O When people buy PWs just to be a dictator and not actually DO anything with it. Then complain about the lack of new PWs for Graal.

[killerogue]

This is true. I meant for non-testing servers servers that are actually meant to do something. That have promise.

[James205]

I see what you are trying to say here, but your whole concept needs a bit of a make over. You can't simply shut down a server that someone pays for because there is simply no development. However, there should be check-ups on playerworlds. There are simply way too many out there and each one just ends up dying. Graal has a significant amount of quality talented players that can produce great work. The real problem is each one of them try to make their own playerworld and don't realize the massive amount of work that truly takes.

Take this into consideration...

50 Great scripters play Graal
100 Great level designers play Graal
80 Great graphics designers play graal
5 Multi-Talented players play graal (Meaning they can do it all).

You have scripter, levelers and graphics designers all trying to create their own playerworlds. So the level designer starts creating their playerworld and makes the overworld... but they need scripters and graphic artists! They then need to find more staff.

You then have a scripter that has recently started their own playerworld and gets all the basic functions out of the way but to continue they need gui graphics and levels and so on, so they need staff!

Then the graphics artist starts, they really don't have anything done but they have a concept and the tileset done, but they need a leveler and scripter.

Graal in total has about 100+ playerworlds (this is a rough estimate) and each individual seems to try to take on their own project. So every person is looking for constant staff, but with each player (since Graal's population isn't anything to brag about) making their own projects and trying to find staff... then starts what I like to call "Recycle Staff" cycle. Basically players start ending up working for one playerworld, then decide to take on 2 playerworlds then 3...4 and 5. Then they simply drift from the other jobs and never eventually get things done. This usually concludes with a playerworld failure because the lack of dedicated staff.

Playerworlds that I see becoming more successful are the ones with multi-talented staff because they simply can do everything. The other staff are talented people but are not consistant enough to actually get a full project done. Even the so called "Legend" playerworlds end up failing (ToT,Faheria and Oasis). There seems to be so much hype about one specific playerworld because of simple previews but they never got past the big part that truly makes a playerworld successful... getting released.

Now many people say "Unholy Nation sucks!" but in an honest answer... look at what number they are on the playerlist. They are always #1, even when other playerworlds are released they still manage to climb up that ladder. Many people will say because they have been around so long and more people are addicted to it... I don't think that's the case. It seems to be more consistant than most players. It doesn't try to bring some bogus big project around every week. As much as I hate to say it, they actually pay attention more to player interactivity than any other playerworlds. Other playerworlds are just way too concentrated on the look/appeal of the overworld that they forget what really makes an online playerworld worthy.

If you're going to make a playerworld don't just come up with a dumb concept them buy a playerworld. Make sure you can do your own work to some extent and make sure you have some dedicated staff that will support you. And also don't go around posting screenshots on the OGCC of just one level that you completed. Keep the project more of a secret because in the end, people will appreciate the surprise more rather than get a bunch of people hyped up about it because of how it looks... then when it's released it just seems like another playerworld. Also, be original with your ideas, don't just do what everyone else is doing (like every single job and event). I guess I kind of got off topic a bit and typed too much, oh well!

As for my final suggestion and where I was kind of going... Graal doesn't have an unlimited amount of quality staff. I really think there should be more official graal playerworlds so more quality staff work together and get the job done and get it released. Once it's released let it be player maintained (with few staff) then create another one and see which will be successful and what works and what doesn't.



AS FOR CRONO'S RESPONSE:

Man those numbers are exaggerated. I said there is roughly around 100 playerworlds on graal, and I was giving an example of how the numbers I said (In no way represent the correct numbers of scripters, levelers and graphics designers) and how there just isn't enough staff to complete any of the playerworlds. You kind of missed the whole point.

[Crono]

50 Great scripters play Graal

Are you able to name them?

100 Great level designers play Graal

I have a hard time naming 10.

80 Great graphics designers play graal

Names?

5 Multi-Talented players play graal (Meaning they can do it all).

Sounds right.

[killerogue]

He said roughly Cron. :P

[Sum41Freeeeek]

I don't care.
If I pay 100 dollars for a playerworld, it's not fair that just because I'm not doing anything
(or next to nothing) that it should be tooken away from me :s
If you start taking playerworlds away people are going to be afraid to buy one, thinking
they might waste their money and it will get tooken away.

[killerogue]

Exactly. People won't waste their money and will think twice. And people that really want to keep it will repay. But what James says is cool too. Their should be Monthly PW Inspections but they shouldn't shut it down if it doesn't pass. Maybe 3-5 fails get's it shut down or something.

[KuJi]

No, not at all should a PW be put down after paying.

Clearly a lot of people play with them etc.., some people dont work on them for several months but go back - doesn't matter. They payed, unless they cancel it @ graal.net it should NOT be closed until it expires.

[killerogue]

:O Well let's say use James Revision that PWs should still pass tests or inspections but don't get shut down. Maybe get cited or a warning.

[konidias]

Shutting down PRIVATE servers that people PAID FOR is a REALLY bad idea.

There is no obligation to make a successful playerworld in x amount of time when you pay for a server. When exactly would be a decent time to shut it down anyway? Do you expect someone to have a server ready for release in 6 months? 8 months? 12 months? (hey that's a full year the server subscription is over anyway)

What I think needs to be done in order to see playerworlds be successful... is that there needs to be more benefits for successful worlds. Some examples:

1. If your private playeworld passes inspection and makes it online you and all of the staff on your server would get their accounts flagged for special advantages. Namely that you would be able to post on the forums even if your account expires as long as you're active staff on a public server.

2. You get a free item from the Graal store if you remain an active staff on a public server for x amount of months.

3. Public servers don't have to be paid for (obviously)

4. Access to a private forum where you can contact Stefan or globals really quickly. (of course abuse of the forum or someone non-deserving could be removed from access)

I just think there need to be more benefits for being part of the development for a public server that is bringing players to Graal and keeping the game alive.

These sort of benefits would hardly cost Graal anything...

[killerogue]

:P Let's use Koni's ideas and the edited idea of mine by James. Let's say Playerworlds should be inspected and if they don't pass they WONT be shut down. But will be cited or whatever or something. Then use Koni's ideas as well. Would be nice.