What's the deal, Stefan?

[Polo]

LAT includes scripters, tilers, gani makes, gfx'ers etc on Classic, but as they are all co-ordinated by one admin, they all get braded as on team. It's called LAT instead of Developer because well originally it was called LAt, and I guess it's mainly nostalgia.

Most people looking for a job on Classic usually ask me, then I direct them to the relevant admin, so I don't think the naming really creates much of an issue.

[MysticalDragon]

Originally Posted by Minoc

Fortunately, most people are gifted with common sense.

I don't usually get into these small bikering arguments but I had to state my opinion. You say most people are gifted with "common sense" huh...Well How is calling a LAT a Developer common sense?I been playing Graal Online Since 99 and i was tought as a Player that LAT stood for "Levels Admin Team".SO how is that common sense? When you where tought one thing and a Classic server comes along and changes a common rank like "LAT" into a developer type status.Having LATs be Dev is a type of Oxy***** move in my opinion. When ever i ran a server i had my LATs,NATs and my Devs that did a ittle bit of everything and work got done rather quickly.Maybe this small rank adjustment is why classic fails to speed up progress...Yes?

[jacob_bald6225]

Originally Posted by Codein

Oh, so there is someone, who is highly skilled, yet hasn't played or touched classic, or this post, and they come to Classic, trying it out and notices that they might be in need of their skills, but they're only hiring for Levels Team.

Heck, I didn't know that until you told me. I wouldn't consider myself highly skilled, but I'm not a newbie and I can contribute in some way.

Someone who doesn't or hasn't played classic enough to know that LAT is a mix of staff positions would be useless in making the server more classic-like. This I see is a good choice not to break it into a whole bunch of useless tags.

[maximus_asinus]

Since Classic started the original LAT (which covers scripting/tiling/gfx/etc), wouldn't it be the other servers fault for misleading newbies since they changed the definition of LAT?

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by Polo

LAT includes scripters, tilers, gani makes, gfx'ers etc on Classic, but as they are all co-ordinated by one admin, they all get braded as on team. It's called LAT instead of Developer because well originally it was called LAt, and I guess it's mainly nostalgia.

Most people looking for a job on Classic usually ask me, then I direct them to the relevant admin, so I don't think the naming really creates much of an issue.

I don't understand the desire for nostalgia since the current server has none.

[protagonist]

Why didn't The Adventure get left up while the development team worked on a development server?

[Inspiration]

Originally Posted by protagonist

Why didn't The Adventure get left up while the development team worked on a development server?

I think that was the original plan, then all the content on the development server got erased, so they decided to just go ahead and change the main server with no real content ready.

I worked there over a year ago (about 15 months ago now) and that's the reason they gave me for lack of content.

Now, 15 months later, there is even less content than there was then.

[Minoc]

Originally Posted by MysticalDragon

I don't usually get into these small bikering arguments but I had to state my opinion. You say most people are gifted with "common sense" huh...Well How is calling a LAT a Developer common sense?I been playing Graal Online Since 99 and i was tought as a Player that LAT stood for "Levels Admin Team".SO how is that common sense? When you where tought one thing and a Classic server comes along and changes a common rank like "LAT" into a developer type status.Having LATs be Dev is a type of Oxy***** move in my opinion. When ever i ran a server i had my LATs,NATs and my Devs that did a ittle bit of everything and work got done rather quickly.Maybe this small rank adjustment is why classic fails to speed up progress...Yes?

Rank adjustment? Classic was the first server.

It is common sense.
Most levels are composed of NPCs, graphics, and tiles; therefore, it's wrong to associate the team with tilers alone.

[Mark Sir Link]

Plus, on classic, there was no NPC-Server to add items to. To add items, they had to be in a level, in a script, with a toweapons call.

Cherry Harlot: Well, I have no problem with them complaining; it just annoys me when they don't ask me for info first
*Stefan: well
*Stefan: it would be best if they tell the classic staff & polo what they want
Andrew (RC): true
*Stefan: not always opening new threads on the forum about firing polo
*Stefan: might be some american tradition to first fire the people when you are not ok with them


Stefan, no one is calling out for the firing of Master Storm. Quite the opposite. What I am trying to say is, remove the NPC-Server. From what Storm has told me, you're the one who imposed it on us. Now lift it. It was an interesting experiment, and it failed. The potential to make more money does not lie in classic. It should be the job of new servers. Rather then trying to repackage classic into something it isn't, make a new server. And give us our old server back, .

[Malinko]

I fail to see the logic of discussing the name of "LAT" compared to the development progress of Classic. Just because development staff are called LAT means nothing. If someone was interested in being a development staff for Classic, I'm sure he or she would ask one of the staff members how to fill an application and where to fill an application.

The name of LAT has NOTHING to do with Classic's development? That has no relevant point to what Mark_Sir_Link is speaking of.

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by Inspiration

Now, 15 months later, there is even less content than there was then.

I dont remember exactily how long ago i was helping out but when we were converting the stuff quite a lot of classic had been changed over (I was working with Kat and Evil, thats all I can really remember).

If the content was "Erased" how come one of them did not have a backup of all the content? (I think Com and Tyhm were in the options too, along with a few other notable people who didnt log on often or at all).

There could have been a chance to save all of what was done but i guess no one took it ;(

[Inspiration]

My team and I basically remade every level on N-Pulse, with a ton of NEW NPCs, in about 4 months.

So exactly why is it impossible to do a similar project in triple the time?


I still claim that if I headed a similar project I could have it done before may, assuming I had around 4 people helping.

That's all I'd need. 4 people and 3 months.

[StrykerTFFD]

Before I begin I'd like to say Minoc owns you all and should have my babies.
Beyond that...well...heck I don't have an opinion here.

Classic will never be what it was. If bringing back the old levels would bring back the old players, hell I'd be for it, but it won't. Bringing back the old levels would only mean different things for us to see whenever the oldbies would venture outside of Zol's or level14.graal. What's the difference?

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

Before I begin I'd like to say Minoc owns you all and should have my babies.
Beyond that...well...heck I don't have an opinion here.

Classic will never be what it was. If bringing back the old levels would bring back the old players, hell I'd be for it, but it won't. Bringing back the old levels would only mean different things for us to see whenever the oldbies would venture outside of Zol's or level14.graal. What's the difference?

There would at least be stuff to do.

At the moment, oldbies are irrelevant. The largest part of the case is the potential to gain more noobies with a server that's actually fun.


EDIT:

Today, I walked through Babord on Classic itself. Although it was very broken, it reminded me. It reminded me of things I couldn't remember playing Graal the Adventure offline. Walking through the old city with other players, even if there were no insides, reminded me of what I once played. It was quite fun.

If a broken set of these old levels are fun, then a fixed set of those old levels, exactly the way they were, no updated tiles, or fundamental changes can be just as fun. Stefan, I honestly believe eliminating the NPC-Server could convince more noobs to toss money at you and play the game.

[Mark Sir Link]

BUMP

Nothing's yet to happen. I was hoping someone would at least contact me, besides Master Storm.

EDIT:
Been LAT, nothing to bring classic back

Tried recreating the server, was shut down


Anything else?

[Mafukie]

I think Galen said it best in a chat I had with him; heres a short.


ME:
then why do nothing with classic? you see a 3rd party server crush classic in
players and see this under developed server that is supposed to be official
where all the rich content is supposed to be.

Galen:
because it's long since past time for the old guard to pass the torch to the
younger generation of players. Graal is what the palayers make of it. If the
players truly wanted change, someone would step up to the plate.

ME:
so if the new generation is slow to develop content then we just have to step
back and watch?

Galen:
If you genuinely want to persue change, then you're welcome to do so.

So basically stop complaining, and if you want a situation to change you have to work for it; and not sit around and talk. Apply for LAT on classic and do something about it.

[link master111]

I agree on both sides of this. Maybe if they brought out a dev server so they can do the new version of classic while we play on the old version my be a good idea. However It will take alot of time to change everything (If they can) back to what it was before.

[syltburk]

lolz this s graal! sup minco, peace

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

*Stefan: might be some american tradition to first fire the people when you are not ok with them

Does anyone else resent this comment? It implies that demanding competency is only an American trait.

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by protagonist

Does anyone else resent this comment? It implies that demanding competency is only an American trait.

maybe it is

[Polo]

Originally Posted by protagonist

Does anyone else resent this comment? It implies that demanding competency is only an American trait.

Stefan was refering to how a lot of players like to just shout 'fire! fire! fire!' rather than speaking to the person or making an effort to understand the situation. It is, somewhat, taken out of context above.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by protagonist

Does anyone else resent this comment? It implies that demanding competency is only an American trait.

WTF? No, it does not.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by protagonist

Does anyone else resent this comment? It implies that demanding competency is only an American trait.

Misinterpretation, when people beg for the firing of Storm, they demand perfection

[Vintersorg]

When you started this thread, I decided to Forum PM Stefan in german, to see if he would at least reply. For a sad reason he obviously didn't take the time to read my PM, because all he replied "What's the deal, if you want to help Storm with classic, talk to him".. At no point in my PM I was refering to that I want to help Storm tho...

I dunno, it just seems like Stefan doesn't care for the people that supported him and graal since the beginning ^_^;

[Loriel]

So what were you saying? Perhaps Stefan was suggesting that you help Storm instead of trolling.

[Mark Sir Link]

the help we offer is useless, has the server is already on a set course of doom from Massokre and Storm. We can help, but the help would be unaccepted and wasted. We need a higher up to tell them to bring back classic, not remake it into a piece of ****.

[jacob_bald6225]

[Vintersorg]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

the help we offer is useless, has the server is already on a set course of doom from Massokre and Storm. We can help, but the help would be unaccepted and wasted. We need a higher up to tell them to bring back classic, not remake it into a piece of ****.

Lyndzey and Ibonic tried but failed due to Stefans ignorance :]

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by jacob_bald6225

I lol'ed

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by Loriel

WTF? No, it does not.

Maybe not, but it sounds fairly snide.

[Antago]

There are most likely many other achievements, but I did these all for free and I worked awesomely hard on all of this. I am so pleased with all I have done, and it just goes to show that one person can truly make a huge difference. I also reported many underground hacks (as I used to fancy them and participate in them) to Stefan and cheats and tricks which were used to tighten security on Graal and make the playing experience exponentially better. I spent a LOT of computer hours, though, but that wasn't so bad because I met a lot of wonderful people and it's impossible now to play Graal without seeing mark I made. It was awesome expressing my creativity so abundantly, and I was able to overcome depression, learn a lot about myself and others, and it helped keep me away from things like drug use, overeating, etc.

I agree with people that your best move to get what you want is to manifest what you want, not by talking and complaining so much, but by creating. And, consequently as you can see from what I have done, you could do absolute wonders for the Graal community and world by being such a huge influence in people's lives.

Achievements:

Graal Classic:

• I spent my early days arguing with people, being insulted and even publically ridiculed when I submitted my first levels to graal.goth.net. They made a mockery of my levels and posted their opinion of it, which was just terrible. Lyndzey still remembers them, and I doubt it has nothing to do with the mockery the website gave me. But, publicity either positive or negative may go a long way because ultimately it's not what one person thinks but what the many, including yourself as your opinion is very important to you.
• Long standing Wedding and Divorce chapel from early 1.2 near Graal bridge.
• Many headsets, shields, and swords, including the notorious Power Ranger looking head, head104 (whose original version saw a better day)
• Made various animated "plays", which were game cartoons/slideshows featuring many players and storylines, hosting them from a GServer on my computer.
• House in Nearorner town
• Renamed Onnett town to Nearorner town
• Giant continent, "Destiny" on Graal classic
• Giant continent, "Glowtica" which was actually never finished or officially released, but it did appear on the main map of Graal from like 1.2 to really late until people realized the big underwater blob of levels on the map was inaccessible and got tired of it, nonetheless I worked very hard on it.
• Lots of bird NPCs including a bird with a fullheart that could be carried and dropped in other levels for a fun effect
• Official longstanding lizardon sword quest from the gravity tower on Graal classic in Destiny
• Gravity boots and the big quest
• Opposite boots
• Many other boots :-)
• Graphics Administrator for Graal classic
• I was once a Graal Policeman in the early days of GP in 1.2
• A part of many guilds supplying lots of successful ideas and graphics
• Many different websites, including a famous longstanding #1 ranking site on Graal's top50 (Mafukie's top50) called Graalsoft, as well as other websites including ChronicMan's Shrine, Antago's Shrine, Antago Gravity, and other possibly egotistical works but nonetheless there were humble moments worth a tear of joy or two or a lot more
• I was once on LAT I think, and in fact if I recall correctly I was one of the first LATs for Graal among like 5 of us
• Lots of ideas incorporated into Graal including the "profiles" idea which apparently the Graal Newfeatures TXT mentioned
• Lots of emoticons such as the apple emoticon, the cat emoticon, and the telephone emoticon (there may be others/another)
• Worked on a sky world called "Hyperflash" which featured rainbow bridges and lots of other cool things
• Owned the first official Graal playerworld, which was accessible thorugh my house (this was before Destiny was placed on Graal classic main, it was actually originally first a playerworld). However, I was young, and boys being boys, I exploited the possibility to upload NPCs and using the "canbecarried" option, I managed to create the notorious globe NPC which wreaked much havoc as I carried it through the playerworld portal and onto Graal classic, and threw it and used it to kill people like PACHUKA did. I laugh now, but at the time it was rude and I do feel sorry for the players who I annoyed
• First official Graal halloween event
• First official Graal fourth of july fireworks event
• Invented, and then worked to develop (with Kyle0654) first official Graal new race called "bomy-bopots", perhaps you have heard of them
• I posed under different identities such as "ill panther" and if I recall correctly, there were 3 total "ill panther's tavern"s on Graal classic. One in Nearorner town, one by Graal castle, and one in Destiny. A lovely franchise indeed for me and my learning experience, good thing it served more than just beer. I made it so that I could retrieve the money players paid to the bartenders, and you would be surprised how much rupees I made from that franchise (a lot, so much and so quickly that I stopped caring, if my memory is correct).
• First alternative official body (body2 or something with the cape) which was a collaborative effort between me and GokuX
• Lots of tiles
• Created the official icon for Graal which is actually still being used today (the half fung-si-yan and half ninja head thing)

I could go on and on

Graal2001:

• Icons for Graal level editor and Graalshop (the fancy "save as", "open", etc. icons)
• Came up with the idea for and pushed Stefan to create the NPC Server, which would host NPCs apart from the levels so that they would not be so limited, and there could be overworld NPCs/characters and animals which would not be reset when a level was updated (consequently Graal would suck moreso if I had not pushed this idea for so long and obliged Stefan to manifest it)
• Moved bomy-bopots to Graal2001 after the project was started
• Developed many/most concepts for Graal2001
• Designed the time system concepts with Stefan and pushing for the idea of having two stars/suns which would make for different colored nights and years on the server
• Made many more bomy-bopot graphics
• Designed Mt. Antora
• Made many graphics for Graal2001 including the Gralat, which was done using a design and idea from Stefan
• Founded Antora's Appendage and Bogenera for Graal2001

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by Malinko

You propose to upload the "old" Classic with all the atrributes, levels, etc. restored, which I'm not sure is possible, but if so, can't the people of Classic come up with some sort of compromise between all and the staff? Perhaps if a restore was possible, there could be another "Classic Development" world which will be private for staff to further continue with the NPC-Server conversion without interrupting Classic itself. I know how that was in the past, but it's better than waiting around with "nothing", correct? Perhaps a compromise can be made? I'll read the edits in the first post and pass it on to high staff if I can. I think if this could happen, then the NPC-Server conversion to a future Classic should be assembled with a well put together team to speed up the progress, whether is being globals or people who wish to help.

I've asked Storm several times, so the ball is now in your court. Any progress made at convincing them to do what you and I have suggested?

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by Antago

lots of stuff

Yeah, the graal you seem to keep describing yourself as revolutioning dosent exist anymore.

Maybe you have heard of a guy named Nemesis, and a 10 minute account deletion spree which netted quite a few people free gold time.

Its events like that, that stopped people who could be like you from emerging, because its no longer allowed.

[Polo]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

I've asked Storm several times, so the ball is now in your court. Any progress made at convincing them to do what you and I have suggested?

Asked me what?

[Aknts]

Originally Posted by Andy0687

Yeah, the graal you seem to keep describing yourself as revolutioning dosent exist anymore.

Maybe you have heard of a guy named Nemesis, and a 10 minute account deletion spree which netted quite a few people free gold time.

Its events like that, that stopped people who could be like you from emerging, because its no longer allowed.

Wow, nice reply. Antago did alot for Graal though. It wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't for him.

The thing with Stefan though, when you message him on how you think you could improve something and it is a good idea he usually replies and tells you to do it. Then the next day rolls around and well he don't remember his conversation or the PM that is saved on the forum. One day he wants you to do this thing that could change Graal then the next he wants you to not talk to him. It is odd. =\

[Antago]

I did most of my work when I was not in power, don't you know, Andy?

I was usually not an administrator when I did work. For instance, I wasn't an administrator when Destiny was uploaded. I was not when bomy-bopots were being worked on, etc. I humbly worked in my free time and worked long, long hours trying to contact people, waiting for replies, talking to administrators over ICQ, e-mail, etc. to try to get things to work. When mistakes were made, I would patiently wait for them to update the server with the new files.

So, fortunately for anyone reading this, I do know you can be happy and a huge inspiration by being on the "side-lines" and doing work. I had to promote my ideas and work by taking the initiative to confidently pass the material by administrators like Stefan, unixmad, Galen, and a bunch of others including some people like Gandarian, Bruges, Fuitad maybe even, Vangel, Olorin, etc. I admit it was a lot of work, and I even started new websites for ideas, like bomy-bopots and the NPC Server idea I had supported on Antago Press (an old website), and I discussed the ideas on the forums, messaged Stefan about them a lot and explained to him why they were such great ideas and why they would be beneficial, etc.

Oh, yes, some other accomplishments worth mentioning:

• Worked on original Graal3D, and designed its logo.
• Webmastered and designed the original Graal3d website (www.graal3d.com from long ago) including also a flash version which emulated the windows system of an GUI OS
• Worked on original Graal Gameboy project (though the thing went inactive)

So don't think you need to have a bunch of power to get somewhere. I "made a name for myself" by being self-motivated and creative. I found support where I needed it. It took a lot of compromise, but it worked, and, ultimately, without the NPC Server and bomy-bopots and even a bunch of other work I did for Graal, it would actually probably not be financially successful. It still does piss me off that they have not given me any money. I just think that's sad, because if I became a huge success off of someone's work who so generously gave so much to me, I'd be nice and help them out especially when they really needed money like I do right now in my life.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Antago

For instance, I wasn't an administrator when Destiny was uploaded.

Destiny, we're actually going to be rebuilding that and bringing back the Boot Shop and some other places. --Some people are angry because I made it so all the boots aren't bugged anymore. I have to take pride in my one line of code Opposite Boots xD.

Got Opposite Boots done, Gravity Boots done, and Splash Boots done. I don't know how I'm going to do the bomb stuff yet, and making the Ice Boots are probably going to be the hardest of them all, I just have to remember what direction I'm going. Probably going to have to make some distance to wall function to complement the rest of my movement functions.

[Antago]

lol ya I modified a circular moving npc to like 2 lines of code :-) hehe so it's fun to expand knowledge

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Antago

lol ya I modified a circular moving npc to like 2 lines of code :-) hehe so it's fun to expand knowledge

I wish there were a serverside movement functions that would let us do acceleration and circular stuff. Baddies that go in circles can be fun.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by jake13jake

Destiny, we're actually going to be rebuilding that and bringing back the Boot Shop and some other places. --Some people are angry because I made it so all the boots aren't bugged anymore. I have to take pride in my one line of code Opposite Boots xD.

Got Opposite Boots done, Gravity Boots done, and Splash Boots done. I don't know how I'm going to do the bomb stuff yet, and making the Ice Boots are probably going to be the hardest of them all, I just have to remember what direction I'm going. Probably going to have to make some distance to wall function to complement the rest of my movement functions.

Thanks for hijacking the thread, this is clearly in no way relevant to my suggestion of restoring classic, nor relevant to the arguement of why current classic should remain

-EDIT: I don't think you'll ever get it.