Hey, esteemed PWA team

Googi · #1 04-09-2005, 06:10 AM

How come all the playerworlds are so awful? I mean, the best playerworlds out there are Era and Unholy Nation. What's up with that?

Rick · #2 04-09-2005, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Googi

How come all the playerworlds are so awful? I mean, the best playerworlds out there are Era and Unholy Nation. What's up with that?

error: Inquiry contains opinion.

On a more serious note, point us to playerworlds you think are better.

Kaimetsu · #3 04-09-2005, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Googi

How come all the playerworlds are so awful?

Because Graal players are, generally speaking, awful at making playerworlds. And nobody will pay me to make a good one.

ETD · #4 04-09-2005, 09:29 AM

We're working on N-Pulse best we can

It takes time to fix up a PW, but I think we've done well over the past 2 weeks or so.

Look for cool changes/additions to N-Pulse in the comming months

WanDaMan · #5 04-09-2005, 09:41 AM

A lot of the playerworlds on the playerlist are under development.

Spark910 · #6 04-09-2005, 11:49 AM

There should be an offical team who work (paid work) and create worlds, because it's what Graal lacks.

AlexH · #7 04-09-2005, 11:59 AM

I can't see Cyberjoueur paying people to work on playerworlds.
If anything they are going to pay people to work on Graal Kingdoms.
Although I do think N-Pulse looks nice. A lot better than I remember it but it just lacks quantity just now as far as I could see.

Inspiration · #8 04-09-2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Because Graal players are, generally speaking, awful at making playerworlds. And nobody will pay me to make a good one.

Probably how a lot of people feel, though.

"I'm not getting paid, so why bother?"

It is hard to remain driven when there are very few rewards to reap.

Spark910 · #9 04-09-2005, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexH

I can't see Cyberjoueur paying people to work on playerworlds.
If anything they are going to pay people to work on Graal Kingdoms.
Although I do think N-Pulse looks nice. A lot better than I remember it but it just lacks quantity just now as far as I could see.

Hmm, well, I would if I was them. Considering most players play that, and maybe to work on GK like you said - but I don't think a few updates here and there on GK will change anything, it wont make new players come.

Total new projects would more likely increase playercount, although they shouldn't totally abandon the old projects too.

But if there was an actual team developing, working full time or something, then they could actually do big worthwhile updates, that a lot of players care about.

Kaimetsu · #10 04-09-2005, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spark910

There should be an offical team who work (paid work) and create worlds, because it's what Graal lacks.

Yeah. Put a good word in for me

Inspiration · #11 04-09-2005, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spark910

But if there was an actual team developing, working full time or something, then they could actually do big worthwhile updates, that a lot of players care about.

Yeah pay me 100$ a week and I'll make more quality content than anyone knows what to do with.

It's unrealistic mostly because what was produced would have to be drawing in a steady stream of new paying players, to cover the staff costs.

Let's say you hired 2-3 level makers/world planners, 3 scripters, 2-3 graphic artists. That's about the minimun I'd want for such a project.

thats 700-900$ a week to just pay these people. Is it even realistic that that many pay to play accounts can be sold per weekf for this server?

If you start cutting costs or cutting staff, the project becomes undermanned, and neglected.
You would have to be able to offer people a game that can compete with other pay to play games, such as Lineage 2, World of WarCraft, Everquest 2, Ragnarok Online, ect.

With the old technology, this is probably impossible. With the 3D stuff, anything remains to be seen, but what is the chance a bunch of non-professional people can produce a product that can match the major companys?

koopa1128 · #12 04-09-2005, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inspiration

Yeah pay me 100$ a week and I'll make more quality content than anyone knows what to do with.

It's unrealistic mostly because what was produced would have to be drawing in a steady stream of new paying players, to cover the staff costs.

Let's say you hired 2-3 level makers/world planners, 3 scripters, 2-3 graphic artists. That's about the minimun I'd want for such a project.

thats 700-900$ a week to just pay these people. Is it even realistic that that many pay to play accounts can be sold per weekf for this server?

If you start cutting costs or cutting staff, the project becomes undermanned, and neglected.
You would have to be able to offer people a game that can compete with other pay to play games, such as Lineage 2, World of WarCraft, Everquest 2, Ragnarok Online, ect.

With the old technology, this is probably impossible. With the 3D stuff, anything remains to be seen, but what is the chance a bunch of non-professional people can produce a product that can match the major companys?

Graal competeing with WoW.

As you said it is impossible, But if you gave Cyberjoueurs half the money that WoW and Everquest 2 rack in. Figure if they sold accounts like Graal does, Then maybe the game it self wouldn't be so great.

Inspiration · #13 04-09-2005, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by koopa1128

Graal competeing with WoW.

As you said it is impossible, But if you gave Cyberjoueurs half the money that WoW and Everquest 2 rack in. Figure if they sold accounts like Graal does, Then maybe the game it self wouldn't be so great.

To earn that money they would have to be developing on the level those companys do, and to develop on that level they'd have to be willing to take a risk and hire a skilled team.

When you have a bunch of kids who are unqualified to plan, develop, or manage a gaming server, and they arent paid, you can't expect impressive results.

koopa1128 · #14 04-09-2005, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inspiration

To earn that money they would have to be developing on the level those companys do, and to develop on that level they'd have to be willing to take a risk and hire a skilled team.

When you have a bunch of kids who are unqualified to plan, develop, or manage a gaming server, and they arent paid, you can't expect impressive results.

True that.

Crono · #15 04-09-2005, 04:42 PM

Servers will never be good. Why? Because they've all lost their strong communities. Ever since p2p hit in 2002, some communities broke down but there were still some. However slowly playerworlds lost it and meh, now graal sucks. The only server I play now is Val and thats because it's different than the rest. Everything is is just a clone of the other.

AlexH · #16 04-09-2005, 05:09 PM

I wouldn't say the introduction of p2p destroyed the communities. Yes it put major dents in them but when Graal 2001 was at its peak it had a strong community and that was all p2p and it was also quite a large community.

Crono · #17 04-09-2005, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexH

I wouldn't say the introduction of p2p destroyed the communities. Yes it put major dents in them but when Graal 2001 was at its peak it had a strong community and that was all p2p and it was also quite a large community.

Graal 2001 was actually fun though. And when playerworlds suck, its usually communities that keep you there. And if that fails, then the server dies out.

WanDaMan · #18 04-09-2005, 05:18 PM

Me and Spark actually made an overworld for Christmas but no one wanted to script it so it's like vanished...

I should've got a P2P for doing that

Andy0687 · #19 04-09-2005, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Because Graal players are, generally speaking, awful at making playerworlds. And nobody will pay me to make a good one.

Woah woah, wait up, Kaimetsu will make playerworld content for money? whats the average cost?

On a more literal note, if people were payed to create content, the better developers would come out of the works. I personally know if I were being paid, I would put more effort into completing a project.

Amagius · #20 04-09-2005, 08:14 PM

Fact 1: True creation is one of the hardest things in the world to do.
Fact 2: True creation is not fun.
Opinion 1: Most people make playerworlds to be held like rockstars in the Graalian community and not to create.
Opinion 2: People begin making a playerworld and having fun -- if they are having fun, they probably aren't creating, (usually duplication or reanimation of an idea) and once the fun ceases, so does their "creative output."
Opinion 3: Most Graalians are either busy or lazy bastards.

True, all of those are opinions, but the first two should be mutually believed. The other three are things I think to be true, but will probably be disagreed with.

Kaimetsu · #21 04-10-2005, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy0687

Woah woah, wait up, Kaimetsu will make playerworld content for money? whats the average cost?

I said I'd make a playerworld for money. I don't really wanna be employed by players. I just want Graalonline to say "Okay, here's a server. Make a playerworld for us and we'll pay you at the end if we think it's good."

falco10291029 · #22 04-10-2005, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy0687

I personally know if I were being paid, I would put more effort into completing a project.

Same.

matt8891 · #23 04-10-2005, 04:22 AM

I think, GST members and a couple of good Developers such as Malinko would do great creating a playerworld.

protagonist · #24 04-10-2005, 05:07 AM

Personally, I think that the PWA should, as a side project, direct a playerworld management team and hire some development people to construct some interesting worlds.

Oh yeah, and also, because playerworlds like 2k1 that could be good have people like Lance in charge.

(NOTE: Some non-2k1ish playerworlds are quite nice, of course, and have reasonably good managers. We'll see about how these do.)

osrs · #25 04-10-2005, 05:23 AM

Graal2230 was a great project, I tried to help Jagen and GhostPirate (They were in charge of it at that time) and probably would have changed Graal a lot, like Graal2001 and Graal Kingdoms did, but it just disappeared. I really disliked the playerworld-renting thing, anyone can be a Manager now, that position used to be a 'desire' some years ago, but no more. (Reminding that it's just my opinion, I'm not arguing or related stuff). There are some playerworlds that look promising anyway, like Zenkou, hope the staffs can finish it somehow.

Googi · #26 04-11-2005, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by protagonist

Oh yeah, and also, because playerworlds like 2k1 that could be good have people like Lance in charge.

Hey hey hey.

You're trying to undercut the purpose of this thread.

Inspiration · #27 04-11-2005, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Googi

Hey hey hey.

You're trying to undercut the purpose of this thread.

What was the exact purpose?

protagonist · #28 04-11-2005, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inspiration

What was the exact purpose?

To mock me, but it failed since it brought about real discussion.

Inspiration · #29 04-11-2005, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by protagonist

To mock me, but it failed since it brought about real discussion.

I think I know what Googi was attempting to get at, and I'm aware it was directed at you, I just want to see exactly what he will say.

Googi · #30 04-11-2005, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inspiration

What was the exact purpose?

To mock VT, but it failed since it brought about real discussion.

WanDaMan · #31 04-11-2005, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by protagonist

Personally, I think that the PWA should, as a side project, direct a playerworld management team and hire some development people to construct some interesting worlds.

Yeah! you really helped when me and Spark made Graalympics!

Protagonist, you're always suggesting, get off your ass and do something about it show people that you are qualified. All you do is blab on about how you could change everything, try it, proove to me that you can do it I highly doubt you can.

[/END CHANT AGAINST PROTAGONIST]

protagonist · #32 04-11-2005, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

Yeah! you really helped when me and Spark made Graalympics!

I volunteered, and I started making the menu for choosing a playerworld, but the scripting I was doing wasn't efficient so I decided to forfeit my job so that someone more qualified could make it. I wasn't asked to do anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

Protagonist, you're always suggesting, get off your ass and do something about it show people that you are qualified. All you do is blab on about how you could change everything, try it, proove to me that you can do it I highly doubt you can.

Why? What incentive do I have? I have no desire to make things simply to show off. Give me a reason to spend more time than I would like to showing off (other than trying to please a relatively small group of the community).

WanDaMan · #33 04-11-2005, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by protagonist

I volunteered, and I started making the menu for choosing a playerworld, but the scripting I was doing wasn't efficient so I decided to forfeit my job so that someone more qualified could make it. I wasn't asked to do anything else.).

Dude, you don't only just script. Wasn't you LAT Chief on UN before you started scripting? Bit too late now

[QUOTE=protagonist]Why? What incentive do I have? I have no desire to make things simply to show off. Give me a reason to spend more time than I would like to showing off (other than trying to please a relatively small group of the community).[/QUOTE

You want G2K1 back? your more incompetitent than Lance,. I guess I myself and some of the community would take you more seriously if you did show off some of your work or something.

NOW DER IS A SUMMER PLAYRWURLD WIL U HELP SPARK?

Shaun · #34 04-11-2005, 05:58 PM

If any group has the skills to make a really good playerworld, they would likely figure out it's better to make their own game. That way, they own the rights to it (instead of GraalOnline grabbing them up), they don't have to pay Graal's rediculous fees (or require that each player on the world has to pay Graal), they have more control of the in-game content, they are limited only by their programming ability, and there are likely other advantages.

Right now, this is how Graal's playerworld system works:

Alpha needs a VIP account to even think about registering a playerworld: Alpha.money-=a;
Alpha registers a playerworld: Alpha.money-=b; Cyberjoueur.money+=b;
Alpha makes content for playerworld. Alpha.time-=c;
Linux Cyberjoueur owns intellectual rights to said content: Alpha.conent-=d; Cyberjoueur.content+=d;
Playerworld staff need to pay to work on playerworld: Staff.money-=a; Cyberjoueur.money+=xa;
Playerworld staff work on content: Staff.time-=kc;
Players need to pay to access playerworld: Player.money-=a; Cyberjoueur.money+=ya;

We take the sum of that, and we get:

Playerworld Manager's money: Initial - a -b
Playerworld Manager's time: Initial - c
Playerworld Manager's content ownership: Initial - d

Playerworld Staff's money: Initial - a
Playerworld Staff's time: Initial - kc

Playerworld Player's money: Initial - a

Cyberjoueur's money: Initial + a(x+y+1) + b
Cyberjoueur's content ownership: Initial + d

In the end, everybody loses, GraalOnline wins. Whenever you produce stuff, you are, in reality, paying GraalOnline to be given the right to volunteer.Yes, they do have all this available for you to use, but if you have the talent, you may as well make your own game.

Kaimetsu · #35 04-11-2005, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun

In the end, everybody loses, GraalOnline wins

That's a little oversimplistic, dude. Most people enjoy developing playerworlds.

GoZelda · #36 04-11-2005, 06:22 PM

I think it might be possible for Graalonline to spawn some decent PW's if they used the old system where you created an offline world and that would be reviewed. If it was good enough, it'd just be put online and no need to worry about paying cash.

Kaimetsu · #37 04-11-2005, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoZelda

I think it might be possible for Graalonline to spawn some decent PW's if they used the old system where you created an offline world and that would be reviewed

How would that lead to better playerworlds?

Also, would it be worth the loss of income? If Graal doesn't get enough funds, there won't be any playerworlds.

GoZelda · #38 04-11-2005, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

How would that lead to better playerworlds?

They'd need to pass a certain level of decency to be even allowed on the playerworld list.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Also, would it be worth the loss of income? If Graal doesn't get enough funds, there won't be any playerworlds.

There won't really be any loss of income. Until the playerworld has passed the test, it won't be taking up any server space and when it has passed the test and passed like 2 months in beta then GraalOnline has atleast one more better PW that'll attract more players.

Kaimetsu · #39 04-11-2005, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoZelda

They'd need to pass a certain level of decency to be even allowed on the playerworld list

Well, it might increase the average quality, but is that so significant? People will gravitate towards whichever server they prefer. The less impressive ones will quietly die and harm nobody in the process.

Quote:

There won't really be any loss of income. Until the playerworld has passed the test, it won't be taking up any server space

Right. But will Graal be getting money from the server renting?

GoZelda · #40 04-11-2005, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Right. But will Graal be getting money from the server renting?

No, but they'll have a quality server almost for free. This will probably draw more players to Graal. (And, if Graal decides to be greedy, they can make it P2P so more people sign up for P2P to play it. Heck, with some marketing like releasing it fully for classics the first month then going P2P this might even work. All given it is good, of course.)