A Comedy of Species

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by busyrobot

My 2 cents....I hate it when every player uses an amnesia backstory

Why is that, exactly? I mean, I feel the same way, I'm just wondering what you'd give as your reasons.

Kai is talking about a theoretical danger, that everyone could as it stands, be a bunch of wierd made up races that result in a very disjointed community where no one knows what the heck anyone else is.

However, this has not happened in practice

There's that fox guy, I think? I'm sure there would be others if the average Graal RPer actually bothered to design a backstory. Currently they're not doing that, so we don't see too many objectionable origins. But would you agree that designing an identity and history for your character is something to be encouraged? If we are hoping to have more people undergoing this process, it makes sense to agree on some ground rules beforehand.

Also, the fear of everyone wanting crazy rp based powers as demons that can destroy whole cities - that is not happening either

I dunno. Have you read this thread?

Considering that all of Kai's issues are with hypothetical problems that COULD occur, and given the number of literal and existing problems with RPing in GK today that DO occur and still persist and are problematic, I think the argument should be dismissed on the 'you are worrying about what?' note

What other problems am I capable of addressing?

[busyrobot]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Why is that, exactly? I mean, I feel the same way, I'm just wondering what you'd give as your reasons.

When its overdone its annoying, and is often a lazy way to become mysterious or not think of a backstory. If Gryf had chosen an unknown race at a time that 'everyone was doing it' and didn't think it out at all, that would annoy me too. Its just not the case.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

There's that fox guy, I think? I'm sure there would be others if the average Graal RPer actually bothered to design a backstory. Currently they're not doing that, so we don't see too many objectionable origins. But would you agree that designing an identity and history for your character is something to be encouraged? If we are hoping to have more people undergoing this process, it makes sense to agree on some ground rules beforehand.

There have been a few Furres in Dustari, most with well thought out backstories. Of course, rp character backgrounds are 'good' regardless of how mundane or 'special' they are. As for the process, usually the kingdoms regulate themselves, when a person has a question on what sort of backstory to write, they ask the advice of the King/Queen or an Rper in a senior rank. I helped many people write decent ones. When they work, then it helps RPing work, and if someone's story seems difficult, it works itself out and will likely get modified. In any case that is what kingdoms are for. If there are genuine inter kingdom problems 'ground rule' wise, they are worked out by the leaders if they are any good at engaging with the community as a whole.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I dunno. Have you read this thread?

Doesn't seem to be very encouraging of the idea of having demonic origins, its sure not an endorsment of that by any means. If anything it supports what I am saying.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

What other problems am I capable of addressing?

[/QUOTE]
Use your brain for that one.

Just a side note, about the 'not RPing on Thursdays' and such, you are making bad comparisons here. Same with the purple hats. What determines relevance of experience is participation within the community that it is in regards to. No one says "you don't rp so you don't know" or "you don't rp here so you don't know how" people are saying "you don't rp with this community, and it explains why your theories about this community are wrong and ill informed".

The thing is, we ARE in agreement that people don't want everyone having random races. If a few people added that element to their RP histories, their kingdom community would offer suggestions, and if it looked like it was becoming a fad, the kingdom community would directly discourage it. You are wrong to think it is all chaotic free-form. There is not supposed to be a centralized RP Rule Of Law dictator, the kingdoms are supposed to have good leaders that work with the members to help keep a good consistent community that works fluidly with the other communities. If that is flawed, its another discussion.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by busyrobot

When its overdone its annoying

Well, yeah. But I asked why you find it annoying.

As for the process, usually the kingdoms regulate themselves, when a person has a question on what sort of backstory to write, they ask the advice of the King/Queen or an Rper in a senior rank. I helped many people write decent ones

Excellent, I commend you on your efforts. But what if other kingdom leaders fail to do the same, or do it in a way that encourages bad practices? I mean, wasn't Gryffon once a king? Self-regulation is great, but only when it's done properly.

Doesn't seem to be very encouraging of the idea of having demonic origins, its sure not an endorsment of that by any means

That's not what it's supposed to demonstrate. Rather, it is an indication that people are engaging in this kind of unbalancing make-believe, and that more active discouragement might be a good thing. Certainly we could do without ex-kingdom-leaders setting a bad precedent.

Use your brain for that one

Well, that wasn't a very mature response. If you cannot think of any then just say so.

Just a side note, about the 'not RPing on Thursdays' and such, you are making bad comparisons here. Same with the purple hats. What determines relevance of experience is participation within the community that it is in regards to

I'll say to you what I said to Gryffon: Why? Because you say so? Who gets to draw the line between absolutes and relatives? Do you not agree that some things are universal?

The thing is, we ARE in agreement that people don't want everyone having random races. If a few people added that element to their RP histories, their kingdom community would offer suggestions, and if it looked like it was becoming a fad, the kingdom community would directly discourage it

So, what, is it first-come-first-served? Or I'll-let-you-be-special-because-you're-my-friend? How is either of those fair?

You are wrong to think it is all chaotic free-form. There is not supposed to be a centralized RP Rule Of Law dictator, the kingdoms are supposed to have good leaders that work with the members

But is that actually the case? If not, it is chaotic.

[busyrobot]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Well, yeah. But I asked why you find it annoying.

Same reason other people find it annoying - when everyone is doing it usually its a quick solution to not having any other ideas. It rarely contributes something unique and creative.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Excellent, I commend you on your efforts. But what if other kingdom leaders fail to do the same, or do it in a way that encourages bad practices? I mean, wasn't Gryffon once a king? Self-regulation is great, but only when it's done properly.

Um, he is the current leader of Forest, unless I missed something recently. When its not done properly, we all post threads about how much the kingdom of such and such sucks and how its ruining GK. Search for references to KJ etc, you'll get the idea.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

That's not what it's supposed to demonstrate. Rather, it is an indication that people are engaging in this kind of unbalancing make-believe, and that more active discouragement might be a good thing. Certainly we could do without ex-kingdom-leaders setting a bad precedent.

Its only a bad precedent if there is a problem, and it has not. If there was a pandemic of people rping as unsual creatures I could consider agreeing with you, but that would be a stretch. For instance, paladins are rare there is only able to be one Paladin of Dustari, and if he did that job well, would he be encouraging a problem of lots of people wanting to play paladins who are not in Dustari? Gryf, as one of a very few who play unsual species is not causing a problem any more than one good paladin would.

What determines the problem or level of unbalance is not myself or you, but whether the community is caused problems by it.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Well, that wasn't a very mature response. If you cannot think of any then just say so.

I can, I just don't have any interest in discussing them. I have already in many posts.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I'll say to you what I said to Gryffon: Why? Because you say so? Who gets to draw the line between absolutes and relatives? Do you not agree that some things are universal?

Its by loose consensus of the community as a whole.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

So, what, is it first-come-first-served? Or I'll-let-you-be-special-because-you're-my-friend? How is either of those fair?

Usually its first come first serve, because when something is unique and creative it contributes to the community in a novel way, but when someone tries to do something that has already been done before that just doesn't fit at all, its a drag on the community. That is perfectly fair, because its about what works and what doesn't. Ironically, you are proposing that no one be allowed to, even when it doesn't cause any problems, which is unfair to people who are currently playing such characters.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

But is that actually the case? If not, it is chaotic.

It is not so chaotic that everyone is playing some strange race from beyond the known lands. It is managed to a degree, and certianly can be better. However, improvement will be based on fixing the problems that bother the community, not fixing 'problems' that you, who does not RP with the community feel exist on a theoretical level.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by busyrobot

Same reason other people find it annoying - when everyone is doing it usually its a quick solution to not having any other ideas

So you just get annoyed by things that happen frequently? Does the amnesia thing do any real harm?

Um, he is the current leader of Forest, unless I missed something recently

I probably misinterpreted something. Of course, I only see what is posted to the board.

Its only a bad precedent if there is a problem, and it has not

Um. A precedent is something that precedes something else. The point isn't such much what has happened, but what might. If kingdom leaders are doing something, it kind of sets the message that it's okay.

For instance, paladins are rare there is only able to be one Paladin of Dustari

Yeah, but:

1) That's Dustari. One kingdom - one that's probably managed better than most of the others. If those mechanisms aren't in place in other kingdoms then it makes sense to empathise now that elaborate, dramatic, super-special world-altering backstories are something to avoid.
2) Choosing a paladin is much different to choosing who gets to invent a race. You can do it based on merits and objective factors like experience, length of membership, etc.

I can, I just don't have any interest in discussing them

Then you can't really use that point.

Its by loose consensus of the community as a whole

That answer doesn't make any sense. If a polarised group of people selects the absolutes then they're just not absolute anymore.

Usually its first come first serve

Okay. Should/will the devil guy get to keep his origin story? If not, why not?

Ironically, you are proposing that no one be allowed to, even when it doesn't cause any problems, which is unfair to people who are currently playing such characters

Wah. Maybe they'll need to invent characters that don't make them feel so special. Maybe they should've done that in the first place.

It is not so chaotic that everyone is playing some strange race from beyond the known lands

But what is stopping them from doing that? I mean, sure, some of the kingdoms oppose it, but they could always just move to another one.

However, improvement will be based on fixing the problems that bother the community

This is always such a lousy copout. Like you can't fix more than one thing at once?

[busyrobot]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

So you just get annoyed by things that happen frequently? Does the amnesia thing do any real harm?

When lots of people adopt it it breaks the suspension of disbelief and it limits the creativtity. So I wouldn't say 'yes it does' but 'yes it can' and it is thusly discouraged. People aren't told they can't, its just pointed out to them how common it is and if they are looking for something more original they should keep trying ideas or at least add something into the amesia story.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I probably misinterpreted something. Of course, I only see what is posted to the board.

Its been mentioned on this board a lot.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Um. A precedent is something that precedes something else. The point isn't such much what has happened, but what might. If kingdom leaders are doing something, it kind of sets the message that it's okay.

I know what precedent is, and the thing is that it IS okay for Gryf because its not overused. Bad, would be setting a precedent about using something that IS overused.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Yeah, but:

1) That's Dustari. One kingdom - one that's probably managed better than most of the others.

You base this on?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

If those mechanisms aren't in place in other kingdoms then it makes sense to empathise now that elaborate, dramatic, super-special world-altering backstories are something to avoid.

He's from an obsure race, it has no world altering super special elements. OMG a different humanoid exists...so what? He isn't more powerful for it.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

2) Choosing a paladin is much different to choosing who gets to invent a race. You can do it based on merits and objective factors like experience, length of membership, etc.

Being a paladin has more influence than having a special race.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Then you can't really use that point.

I think you would agree that I can, if we use a slightly different example. For instance, if someone read that the town you live in has a low rate of church attendance, and no one in that town cares, and the town was facing other issues of economics and safety. Does the fact that you don't want to name the specifics of the economic issues prevent you from making the observation that out of towner's grevience is of little importance compared to other issues?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

That answer doesn't make any sense. If a polarised group of people selects the absolutes then they're just not absolute anymore.

There are no absolutes of rules, only a loose desire for everyone to be happy with how things go.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Okay. Should/will the devil guy get to keep his origin story? If not, why not?

Its not up to me, I assume they'll "see how it goes" and all that.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Wah. Maybe they'll need to invent characters that don't make them feel so special. Maybe they should've done that in the first place.

Wah, maybe you need to find something that concerns you to get upset about.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

But what is stopping them from doing that? I mean, sure, some of the kingdoms oppose it, but they could always just move to another one.

They want a story that works with the group they play with. If the group says they feel it doesn't work, then most of the time they will get suggestions on how to refine it.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

This is always such a lousy copout. Like you can't fix more than one thing at once?

This ain't broke.



This is really dumb and kinda simple: Gryf and a few people have unusual races, which at this time don't have any negative impact on the game. Other things, yes, these factors, no. You are against the idea in general, and are worried that there are no safeguards. Well, we haven't needed those safeguards yet, and the fact you don't like the idea doesn't mean much to the majority of the community here, who are more than content with this elements. You made your point, it wasn't that well recieved, no one wants to adhere to your suggestions. Enough said.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by busyrobot

Its been mentioned on this board a lot

I was judging from this thread. I couldn't bear to read through the entire thing, but the gist seemed to be that he had been denied leadership. Presumably it didn't end that way, but these details are irrelevant. That he is currently a kingdom leader only strengthens my point.

I know what precedent is, and the thing is that it IS okay for Gryf because its not overused

...

You recognise that the present and the future are different things, right?

You base this on?

Occasional observations. The Pirates, Samurai and Zormite seem to come under fire more often than Forest and Dustari. If I am mistaken, please let me know.

He's from an obsure race, it has no world altering super special elements

World-altering: It posits the existence of an entire race. That doesn't alter the world?
And it's not special to be a centuries-old dewinged-bird-turned-redeemed-elf creature?

He isn't more powerful for it

When was that ever the issue?

Being a paladin has more influence than having a special race

It is also more likely to involve wearing a shiny hat. What's the relevance?

I think you would agree that I can, if we use a slightly different example. For instance, if someone read that the town you live in has a low rate of church attendance, and no one in that town cares, and the town was facing other issues of economics and safety. Does the fact that you don't want to name the specifics of the economic issues prevent you from making the observation that out of towner's grevience is of little importance compared to other issues?

You're begging the question. Here's a better example:

A: "Hey, we shouldn't be worrying about (saving the rainforests/achieving world peace/finding a clean energy source/etc) while there's so much other stuff to be concerned about!!"
B: "Like what?"
A: "Um. I don't feel like answering that question"

Should we heed A's objection?

There are no absolutes of rules, only a loose desire for everyone to be happy with how things go

If there are no absolutes then the hat thing stands. If all rules are relative to the situation then you have absolutely no idea how to roleplay while wearing a huge purple hat. How could you? You don't have the experience.

Its not up to me, I assume they'll "see how it goes" and all that

Should/will the devil guy get to keep his origin story?

Wah, maybe you need to find something that concerns you to get upset about

Haha, please try to stay on topic.

They want a story that works with the group they play with

Who does? Every roleplayer in existence? And are all the kingdoms strict about what 'works'?

Gryf and a few people have unusual races, which at this time don't have any negative impact on the game

Or, rather, on your enjoyment of the game.

no one wants to adhere to your suggestions

Man, my objective here isn't to convert people like Gryffon. I'm just not that optimistic. This whole thing is primarily a fun debate, but there's a slim possibility that some of you will actually think about what's been said here, and if that leads to improvement then all the better. Just don't think that I'm depending on it.