The Money Problem

[darthSaKi]

What data is available on Era's economy? Is the total amount of cash in circulation even known? Also, are there ways of finding out how much cash is exchanged between accounts per day? If Era staff considered making an effective tax, some of this information would be helpful.

[CharlieM]

All by script. If you work you achieve. No one got the items without working for it you have to look at that. Yes rare guns are rare and make you rich. Dont focus on being rich focus on being good. I focused on being rich so now I have a lot of stuff but i'm not good at PK as others with the same guns, I had to use my stuff to get alright with them and when I wasn't good and had the stuff I didn't have as much fun..
[/rant]

[Frankie]

Originally Posted by Codein

I'm really, really sorry if you're just so short-sighted as to not see it needs improvement. Why leave something that can be improved?

that's not what I was trying to imply at all.

I know exactly what's wrong with the economy and how to fix it. unfortunately, even though certain solutions may look good in writing, I guarantee that something is bound to screw up when it's actually implemented into the game. trying to create the perfect economy is just way too complicated and I believe that a lot of effort is being wasted for such achievement.

just ask yourself; why does it matter? why does it matter how much money is in the economy? do you think players are going to enjoy the game more because of technical bull**** systems that are put in place to keep the economy balanced? not really. players just want to pk, play instruments, skateboard, whatever they enjoy.

why not just let it the **** go? stop wasting time and effort trying to fix the economy and instead use that effort towards content that will make the game more enjoyable. the game shouldn't be based around an economy.

that's just my opinion.

[darthSaKi]

Because, the really fun games have good designs. Games are systems with rules and guidelines that you exploit and manipulate for enjoyment. Enjoyment comes from being successful (within the guidelines). There is a problem because new players are too outmatched to be successful, and (the way things work now) woe onto the noob who does enough mining/pizza baking to do something about it. By and large, anyway.

Although, I have found, mk23s are a very good option to the Era have-not.

One simple way to assist new players could be to give profession items market value. I used to play Diablo 2, which is a game, like Era, that has items ranging from bare basics to godly elite. If you start from scratch in D2 it can be very difficult to get your hands on decent equipment, not because there isn't an active market, but because new players don't have any items they can use to get there foot in the door. Back when I played, however, there was a grace for the newbie. Chipped gems, which any new player comes across, had market value. End game players could use these gems in item crafting, and if new player saved up 40 chipped gems they could be traded for a Stone of Jordan ring (the basic unit of currency in high level trading on D2).

So how could this apply to Era? I am going to use mining for my example because I am most familiar with this profession and there is the hierarchy of resources mining produces. It could be said that iron and lead have a market value because they can be used to construct ammo or nails, but realistically no player will go and shop for them on the market because they are, by and large, useless. But this could change. Take diamonds, these items are somewhat rare to come across and yet they sell for a measly $30 a pop to Era Mining Co. Why? Because Era Mining Co. is the only place on the planet that gives a **** about diamonds. What if there was a demand for diamonds by high-rolling players. Suddenly any newb with a drill could save up his/her diamonds and be guaranteed to make a killing (relative to what professions currently pay). Picture a scenario where there is an NPC aristocrat in Era who collects diamonds for consuming optical experiments. He goes through quite a few resources and will trade his special concoction for 50 Diamonds. This concoction gives players a 48 hour buff, say it gives them a speed bonus or a temporary buff to max life (you oldbies with a grasp on what's valuable to established players give input here), whatever it is it has to be something worthwhile. 50 diamonds sell for $1500 to Era Mining Co., so that sets a minimum market value. If the buff is enticing enough, 50 Diamond stacks could go for 5k+. Now here's for the best part, there's NO NEW MONEY introduced. Rich players are in demand for diamonds, new players have plenty of incentive and means to be suppliers, and money gets passed down the ladder. Furthermore, buffs are temporary so the market for diamonds stays active.

[BigBear3]

Originally Posted by Venom_Fish

Often if a new player asks me for a gun, one of the two is what he receives.

sup

[MontyPython]

Originally Posted by Codein

I'm thinking of experimenting with a socialist-style taxation concept, where by richer players are taxed a higher percentage where as poorer players are taxed at a lower rate.

There could be bands, such as:

Band A: Highest rate. (30 percent)
Band B: Middle rate. (20 percent)
Band C: Low rate. (10 percent)
Band D: Exemption rate.

I disagree with this idea. Socialism's way of operation discourages success and glorifies mediocrity. If you climb up the ladder only to be taxed more heavily than your fellow player who's not working as hard as you to make money, it really kills the incentive. When everyone is essentially brought down to the same level, regardless of how hard they work, it destroys the will to work/succeed. Socialism doesn't work out well in real life, and it wouldn't work in Era.

[Venom_Fish]

Originally Posted by darthSaKi

What data is available on Era's economy? Is the total amount of cash in circulation even known? Also, are there ways of finding out how much cash is exchanged between accounts per day? If Era staff considered making an effective tax, some of this information would be helpful.

Trying to record or collect that data at this point in time would be almost impossible, and an unnecessary pain in the neck. To implement such an economic-fix, there would need to be a reset during which all of this data is recorded and kept track of. Excluding the how much money is exchanged between counts per day, it can be recorded and tracked but has little to no importance outside of GP-Related Matters.

[Pelikano]

When will you kids finally give up?

y'all need to be banned to learn what life is and to grow the hell up

[Venom_Fish]

Sadly, being banned and undergoing that course is luxury only you enjoy. It'd be more flagrant if you didn't make it such a commodity.

Anyways, Charlie has a point.
The Key to Era is becoming a good player, not a wealthy player.
Once you're good, things just come to you and once you're good, you're for the most part, always good to some degree. Your skill can't be reset, altered and etc.

That is the one item that you have permanently and that is the seed that gets you many more items. So buy an Uzi, mine for ammo... spar, spar, spar, pk,pk,pk until you can do neither no more. After you've become well-accomplished in both of those, you'll see gang leaders and people "lending" and eventually "giving" you guns.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by Codein

I'm thinking of experimenting with a socialist-style taxation concept, where by richer players are taxed a higher percentage where as poorer players are taxed at a lower rate.

There could be bands, such as:

Band A: Highest rate. (30 percent)
Band B: Middle rate. (20 percent)
Band C: Low rate. (10 percent)
Band D: Exemption rate.

Also, I would keep a log of transactions and produce visual aids, such as graphs, using a sample of the data and make predictions.

I'm sure if the current system was researched into deep enough, looking at it from an economist point of view rather than a technical point of view, you could effectively curb inflation and deflate the economy without constant resets.

However, I'm unsure what measures you ARE already taking, so I can't say you're not looking into it deeply either way.

the correct term is progressive tax, please don't confuse it with socialism.

Originally Posted by MontyPython

I disagree with this idea. Socialism's way of operation discourages success and glorifies mediocrity. If you climb up the ladder only to be taxed more heavily than your fellow player who's not working as hard as you to make money, it really kills the incentive. When everyone is essentially brought down to the same level, regardless of how hard they work, it destroys the will to work/succeed. Socialism doesn't work out well in real life, and it wouldn't work in Era.

I'm guessing you saw the word socialism and decided not to read the rest of the post.

Unless wealth is already worthless, there is always an incentive to make more money. If someone making 500,000 were taxed 20 percent, they'd have 400,000 after taxes. If someone making 1 million were taxed 25 percent, they'd have 750,000 after taxes. What was once twice has much is now 1.875 as much, which is still a considerable amount of money.

The issues you'll typically see with a progressive tax is people trying to skew the amount of money they make based on tax proportions IE, if the 20 percent scaled from 500,000 to 999,999 you'd be better off taking 999,999 instead of 1 million. This is combated by vastly reducing the tax brackets.

[MontyPython]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

I'm guessing you saw the word socialism and decided not to read the rest of the post.

Unless wealth is already worthless, there is always an incentive to make more money. If someone making 500,000 were taxed 20 percent, they'd have 400,000 after taxes. If someone making 1 million were taxed 25 percent, they'd have 750,000 after taxes. What was once twice has much is now 1.875 as much, which is still a considerable amount of money.

The issues you'll typically see with a progressive tax is people trying to skew the amount of money they make based on tax proportions IE, if the 20 percent scaled from 500,000 to 999,999 you'd be better off taking 999,999 instead of 1 million. This is combated by vastly reducing the tax brackets.

No, I read the rest of the post. Call it what you will, it still resonates with the socialistic concept. Granted, you're not all put down to the exact same level like you would be in an ideal socialistic environment, but it's edging closer.

Yes, you still have more money in the end, but you're also losing much more money. There's no reason why just because you took the time to make more money, you should be losing more money. There's other solutions rather than just forcibly removing money from people's accounts via taxation. I agree with darthSaKi's concept of having there be a more approachable way to get your foot in the door with economy. And furthermore, a tax system makes no sense in a virtual world where there's no government to make use of it.

[darthSaKi]

Yes, PKing is a major part of Era. Yes, sparring is a lot of fun. But a great game has many facets, and right now it takes way more skill than can be easily acquired for a noob to match players running around with automatic shotguns, SMGPKs, SG552s, and other high-grade street guns.

So, allow new players to be successful in other aspects of Era.

Originally Posted by darthSaKi

One simple way to assist new players could be to give profession items market value.

I stand by this suggestion.

[Dark_Zeratul101]

Socialism glorifies mediocrity? I don't know about that, but I sure as hell know that capitalism does.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by MontyPython

No, I read the rest of the post. Call it what you will, it still resonates with the socialistic concept. Granted, you're not all put down to the exact same level like you would be in an ideal socialistic environment, but it's edging closer.

Yes, you still have more money in the end, but you're also losing much more money. There's no reason why just because you took the time to make more money, you should be losing more money. There's other solutions rather than just forcibly removing money from people's accounts via taxation. I agree with darthSaKi's concept of having there be a more approachable way to get your foot in the door with economy. And furthermore, a tax system makes no sense in a virtual world where there's no government to make use of it.

In one of the most capitalist regions in the world, a vast majority of economists advocate a progressive tax. Why is that if it's "socialist"?

[MontyPython]

Originally Posted by Dark_Zeratul101

Socialism glorifies mediocrity? I don't know about that, but I sure as hell know that capitalism does.

Please elaborate. Capitalism in its true form (doesn't exist currently) allows anyone with the work ethic, talent, and willpower to go as far as they wish. Socialism keeps everyone at the same level, no matter what your goals/talents may be. There's no reason to work hard when you get nothing more for it than someone who only does the bare minimum to survive. But this argument really isn't keeping in line with the thread's actual topic.

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

In one of the most capitalist regions in the world, a vast majority of economists advocate a progressive tax. Why is that if it's "socialist"?

One of the most? I'm assuming you're talking about America. America might still be the "most" capitalistic region, however, that's a very very relative term. We've been heading down the path to socialism for a very long time, mostly initiated back with FDR and his "New Deal" shenanigans.

With our current status and what's coming in the future, I classify America as capitalistic in name only.

But once again, this isn't really what this topic is about.

Taxes aren't a good way to remove money. It's not like real life, people might play the game for a while, then stop. Do they still get taxed? That'd be absurd. It'd be great to come back after a long break to an entirely empty bank account. In real life, you don't just take a break (unless you decide welfare is a good route for you). I could keep going, but anyways.

If you really insisted upon a tax being put into Era, the only kind that would be acceptable is a static percentage value for everyone. Obviously the richest are still losing the most money, but they're not being punished with a higher rate simply for being successful.

But let's forget taxes, just removing money for the sake of removing money doesn't solve too much. If items like guns had more upkeep costs other than ammo, it'd be a bit more realistic. Would it be annoying to have to pay to repair your gun at times? Absolutely. But taxes would also be annoying. There's that big question of how realistic do we really want a game to be? Where does the realism start ruining the fun? Changes should be made to make the economy more fair overall, but we don't want to sacrifice the fun of the game by making it some demanding, realistic high-upkeep/maintenance simulation.