The Money Problem
 

I'm new to Era. Sorta. I played Era on a trial before I had a P2P in 2002, then I moved on to Valikorlia, and I have about 3000 hours on that server. I've logged on to Era in passing since that time, but, all in all, I'm new to Era.

Being new, I see a problem. There seem to be two tiers of players, those who have things and those who don't. The people who have things participate in an active market of buying, selling and trading. These transactions take place, by and large, over mass messages. A market is a good thing, a commodity based game needs one. But this market has a problem. The problem is that the only people participating in the market are well-established players. Players who have things. The items on the market have monetary values of 70k, 100k, 1mil or more. New players earning money mining or at another profession cannot hope to earn this amount of money. Having upper tier items is not a problem, the problem is that there is no bridge between low-grade store-bought items and the upper tier items. Another forum member articulated on a related thread that players don't expect 1 mil cash for their items, they want similar-tier items to be traded. How are have-nots ever going to get in the club? The division is cemented, you are a have or a have not and there isn't much between.

So true. Of course there has been an improvement in how to make money by the addition of allowing anyone to work in speedy pizza, but even working there for plenty of time does not raise enough to buy those 'upper tier items'. The only way to make that step up is to buy items for real money or cross server trade. People who cannot do that are missing out on possibly the best part of playing this server. The economy side.

the only way to work your way up into the big leagues legally and somewhat quickly is to basically try to make profits off of your guns. One of my friends bought a glock for 35k and then 2 days later it was 100k for one. He sold it for 100k, got a better gun and then sold it to someone for i think around 115k. And he just kept trying to gain money that way. OR you can do what alot of players do such as myself: buy a somewhat decent gun that is not necessarily the best, but will get you kills and save your money. Although better guns may make you better, i often see players own with uzis and or a taurus. I do agree the market is messed up, but when its an open market like era has, it's difficult to control it.

Yup. 'Playing the market' is your only chance, legally that is.

There are certainly some problems, but adding high-paying jobs isn't really going to help. The prices would just go up, assuming you could actually get up near the higher end.

I think it's safe to say that the majority of the wealth-moving is illegal at this point.

What if a scenario was created that put the governing body over Era in financial trouble and in order to cope a progressive tax is legislated (taking advantage of Era's very wealthy populace). The tax could be on transactions and be designed so that the larger the amount of money exchanged, the more it is taxed. Or maybe it could be on ATM deposits, though that may cause players to not move their money around at all- freezing the market. The idea needs some constructive feedback.

lol. THE BRIDGE TO SOUTHRIDGE HAS BEEN DESTROYED, NEED 5 MIL TO RECONSTRUCT.

I'm thinking of experimenting with a socialist-style taxation concept, where by richer players are taxed a higher percentage where as poorer players are taxed at a lower rate.

There could be bands, such as:

Band A: Highest rate. (30 percent)
Band B: Middle rate. (20 percent)
Band C: Low rate. (10 percent)
Band D: Exemption rate.

Also, I would keep a log of transactions and produce visual aids, such as graphs, using a sample of the data and make predictions.

I'm sure if the current system was researched into deep enough, looking at it from an economist point of view rather than a technical point of view, you could effectively curb inflation and deflate the economy without constant resets.

However, I'm unsure what measures you ARE already taking, so I can't say you're not looking into it deeply either way.

btw. when's the reset again?

It's not again Sam, They did announce one a loooong time ago..
But they never had a reset ;o

That was exactly my point ;)

This was attempted by the former manager Alec. Alec want to two bodies:
the body of commerce (economic decision) and the body of somethingelse (gang). These were never implemented, but he was starting to make levels etc.

I don't know how effective it would be because when you entrust anyone with the power over money, it becomes corrupted and or abused.

my advice: give up on the economy. stop trying so hard to control it. this is a game ffs.

Did you read the posts before hand? It's evident that, from what the OP said, that Era's split down the middle - fun for the select rich people and not as much for those who are not rich.

I also find it quite ridiculous that I have to bore myself with monotomous jobs such as flower picking. It's really not that fun and there isn't much sense of a achievement with it because the prices are so high. The feeling I get is "Man, it's gonna take ****ing ages to get even a gun! Screw this." and I leave.

Games should be fun and a decent economy plays a part in that.

I'm really, really sorry if you're just so short-sighted as to not see it needs improvement. Why leave something that can be improved?

I think you missed the entirety of his point. Obviously creating high-paying jobs would not bridge the gap between rich and poor, the rich would get... it'd still be the same distance.

Era has a shortage of guns, in stores. Outside of AK47, Uzi, Shotgun and Handgun. Or the occasional Daewoo, there are no average items you can purchase in stores for a reasonable price. Understandably, its to maintain rarity in items and prevent mass-production. Yet, AK47, Uzi, Shotgun and Handgun are mass-produced without a care in the world. Branching from that, you could simply create items in the same stat-class as those or a tad higher to help new players cope.

I've realized, Vulcan releasing Xm8 and Mk23s was a huge assistance to new players. Those guns are worth less than 10,000$ yet are "adequate" items in the PK Field. Often if a new player asks me for a gun, one of the two is what he receives.

Also, as for economic troubles... get realistic and use a circulating-economy.
Simply think of how a real economy works, I'd suggest the US' economy.
Its not rocket-science, and according to the Manager... he's going to be a rocket scientist, so it should be a breeze for him.

What data is available on Era's economy? Is the total amount of cash in circulation even known? Also, are there ways of finding out how much cash is exchanged between accounts per day? If Era staff considered making an effective tax, some of this information would be helpful.

All by script. If you work you achieve. No one got the items without working for it you have to look at that. Yes rare guns are rare and make you rich. Dont focus on being rich focus on being good. I focused on being rich so now I have a lot of stuff but i'm not good at PK as others with the same guns, I had to use my stuff to get alright with them and when I wasn't good and had the stuff I didn't have as much fun..
[/rant]

that's not what I was trying to imply at all.

I know exactly what's wrong with the economy and how to fix it. unfortunately, even though certain solutions may look good in writing, I guarantee that something is bound to screw up when it's actually implemented into the game. trying to create the perfect economy is just way too complicated and I believe that a lot of effort is being wasted for such achievement.

just ask yourself; why does it matter? why does it matter how much money is in the economy? do you think players are going to enjoy the game more because of technical bull**** systems that are put in place to keep the economy balanced? not really. players just want to pk, play instruments, skateboard, whatever they enjoy.

why not just let it the **** go? stop wasting time and effort trying to fix the economy and instead use that effort towards content that will make the game more enjoyable. the game shouldn't be based around an economy.

that's just my opinion.

Because, the really fun games have good designs. Games are systems with rules and guidelines that you exploit and manipulate for enjoyment. Enjoyment comes from being successful (within the guidelines). There is a problem because new players are too outmatched to be successful, and (the way things work now) woe onto the noob who does enough mining/pizza baking to do something about it. By and large, anyway.

Although, I have found, mk23s are a very good option to the Era have-not.

One simple way to assist new players could be to give profession items market value. I used to play Diablo 2, which is a game, like Era, that has items ranging from bare basics to godly elite. If you start from scratch in D2 it can be very difficult to get your hands on decent equipment, not because there isn't an active market, but because new players don't have any items they can use to get there foot in the door. Back when I played, however, there was a grace for the newbie. Chipped gems, which any new player comes across, had market value. End game players could use these gems in item crafting, and if new player saved up 40 chipped gems they could be traded for a Stone of Jordan ring (the basic unit of currency in high level trading on D2).

So how could this apply to Era? I am going to use mining for my example because I am most familiar with this profession and there is the hierarchy of resources mining produces. It could be said that iron and lead have a market value because they can be used to construct ammo or nails, but realistically no player will go and shop for them on the market because they are, by and large, useless. But this could change. Take diamonds, these items are somewhat rare to come across and yet they sell for a measly $30 a pop to Era Mining Co. Why? Because Era Mining Co. is the only place on the planet that gives a **** about diamonds. What if there was a demand for diamonds by high-rolling players. Suddenly any newb with a drill could save up his/her diamonds and be guaranteed to make a killing (relative to what professions currently pay). Picture a scenario where there is an NPC aristocrat in Era who collects diamonds for consuming optical experiments. He goes through quite a few resources and will trade his special concoction for 50 Diamonds. This concoction gives players a 48 hour buff, say it gives them a speed bonus or a temporary buff to max life (you oldbies with a grasp on what's valuable to established players give input here), whatever it is it has to be something worthwhile. 50 diamonds sell for $1500 to Era Mining Co., so that sets a minimum market value. If the buff is enticing enough, 50 Diamond stacks could go for 5k+. Now here's for the best part, there's NO NEW MONEY introduced. Rich players are in demand for diamonds, new players have plenty of incentive and means to be suppliers, and money gets passed down the ladder. Furthermore, buffs are temporary so the market for diamonds stays active.

sup

I disagree with this idea. Socialism's way of operation discourages success and glorifies mediocrity. If you climb up the ladder only to be taxed more heavily than your fellow player who's not working as hard as you to make money, it really kills the incentive. When everyone is essentially brought down to the same level, regardless of how hard they work, it destroys the will to work/succeed. Socialism doesn't work out well in real life, and it wouldn't work in Era.

Trying to record or collect that data at this point in time would be almost impossible, and an unnecessary pain in the neck. To implement such an economic-fix, there would need to be a reset during which all of this data is recorded and kept track of. Excluding the how much money is exchanged between counts per day, it can be recorded and tracked but has little to no importance outside of GP-Related Matters.

When will you kids finally give up?

y'all need to be banned to learn what life is and to grow the hell up ;)

Sadly, being banned and undergoing that course is luxury only you enjoy. It'd be more flagrant if you didn't make it such a commodity.

Anyways, Charlie has a point.
The Key to Era is becoming a good player, not a wealthy player.
Once you're good, things just come to you and once you're good, you're for the most part, always good to some degree. Your skill can't be reset, altered and etc.

That is the one item that you have permanently and that is the seed that gets you many more items. So buy an Uzi, mine for ammo... spar, spar, spar, pk,pk,pk until you can do neither no more. After you've become well-accomplished in both of those, you'll see gang leaders and people "lending" and eventually "giving" you guns.

the correct term is progressive tax, please don't confuse it with socialism.

I'm guessing you saw the word socialism and decided not to read the rest of the post.

Unless wealth is already worthless, there is always an incentive to make more money. If someone making 500,000 were taxed 20 percent, they'd have 400,000 after taxes. If someone making 1 million were taxed 25 percent, they'd have 750,000 after taxes. What was once twice has much is now 1.875 as much, which is still a considerable amount of money.

The issues you'll typically see with a progressive tax is people trying to skew the amount of money they make based on tax proportions IE, if the 20 percent scaled from 500,000 to 999,999 you'd be better off taking 999,999 instead of 1 million. This is combated by vastly reducing the tax brackets.

No, I read the rest of the post. Call it what you will, it still resonates with the socialistic concept. Granted, you're not all put down to the exact same level like you would be in an ideal socialistic environment, but it's edging closer.

Yes, you still have more money in the end, but you're also losing much more money. There's no reason why just because you took the time to make more money, you should be losing more money. There's other solutions rather than just forcibly removing money from people's accounts via taxation. I agree with darthSaKi's concept of having there be a more approachable way to get your foot in the door with economy. And furthermore, a tax system makes no sense in a virtual world where there's no government to make use of it.

Yes, PKing is a major part of Era. Yes, sparring is a lot of fun. But a great game has many facets, and right now it takes way more skill than can be easily acquired for a noob to match players running around with automatic shotguns, SMGPKs, SG552s, and other high-grade street guns.

So, allow new players to be successful in other aspects of Era.

I stand by this suggestion.

Socialism glorifies mediocrity? I don't know about that, but I sure as hell know that capitalism does.

In one of the most capitalist regions in the world, a vast majority of economists advocate a progressive tax. Why is that if it's "socialist"?

Please elaborate. Capitalism in its true form (doesn't exist currently) allows anyone with the work ethic, talent, and willpower to go as far as they wish. Socialism keeps everyone at the same level, no matter what your goals/talents may be. There's no reason to work hard when you get nothing more for it than someone who only does the bare minimum to survive. But this argument really isn't keeping in line with the thread's actual topic.
One of the most? I'm assuming you're talking about America. America might still be the "most" capitalistic region, however, that's a very very relative term. We've been heading down the path to socialism for a very long time, mostly initiated back with FDR and his "New Deal" shenanigans.

With our current status and what's coming in the future, I classify America as capitalistic in name only.

But once again, this isn't really what this topic is about.

Taxes aren't a good way to remove money. It's not like real life, people might play the game for a while, then stop. Do they still get taxed? That'd be absurd. It'd be great to come back after a long break to an entirely empty bank account. In real life, you don't just take a break (unless you decide welfare is a good route for you). I could keep going, but anyways.

If you really insisted upon a tax being put into Era, the only kind that would be acceptable is a static percentage value for everyone. Obviously the richest are still losing the most money, but they're not being punished with a higher rate simply for being successful.

But let's forget taxes, just removing money for the sake of removing money doesn't solve too much. If items like guns had more upkeep costs other than ammo, it'd be a bit more realistic. Would it be annoying to have to pay to repair your gun at times? Absolutely. But taxes would also be annoying. There's that big question of how realistic do we really want a game to be? Where does the realism start ruining the fun? Changes should be made to make the economy more fair overall, but we don't want to sacrifice the fun of the game by making it some demanding, realistic high-upkeep/maintenance simulation.

As obviously indicated in posts before you, 750,000 is > than 400,000. I can't write it any simpler than that.

I've never been partial to taxes in a game but there are literally no money drains on Era. The money gained by purchasing a shovel far exceeds the cost of repairing it when it breaks.

The only way Era could hope to get the economy to a stable level is either releasing more (expensive) luxury items that are worth purchasing, or implementing a tax.

I still don't see where you're going with this punishment for being successful argument since the fact of the matter is, if you're earning more money, you will retain more money regardless of what you are taxed.

I don't even have to mention that most of the people near the top of the wealth charts have obtained their wealth by fraudulent means, or that the economy is virtually non-existent and wealth has no value because as best I can tell, a majority of the top tier items were either given to friends by staff members or duplicated by bug abuse.

Unless there's a store somewhere selling these high end guns that I'm completely unaware of.

era economy will never be fixed as long as 16 year old admins like helping out their friends

I think concerns that a progressive tax will kill incentive to be successful are a little alarmist and misguided. A progressive tax on monetary exchanges would not lead to the scenario where you go inactive and come back with your bank account zapped. Think of it like a sales tax, if you aren't buying things you aren't being taxed. I would not discourage players to be successful or work hard, the tax would simply take money out of the economy. Money, largely, which was introduced fraudulently. I don't understand where your fears are coming from, and the only source I can think of is that the layman's shallow fear of anything associated with "socialism" are being regurgitated on here. But please, if I'm mistaken and there is another well-founded point of view, do your best to lay out your reasoning in a clear argument. I am open to being convinced otherwise.

Theres almost no fraud money in the economy anymore. Leave era's economy alone your lucky it even works for you

Progressive Tax on Era would not discourage anyone, that is established.
Even if you are losing 25 percent of 1,000,000. You will still have more than the man who is losing 10 percent of 300,000$. I couldn't imagine the soul that would look upon that and immediately engulf himself in a cape of hopelessness.

In any event, Progress Tax would work but really is unnecessary.
New Players just need a way to get a foothold in the economy, and there needs to be Affordable Weapons of Each Class available for purchase on a "ladder" of levels. All of these must have an unlimited supply available, also returning "player" shops which these items can be sold in. New Players can muscle up the few thousand dollars to purchase shops. Whether its from the NPC-Server or from players. The value for player-shops will be within their range, that we can be sure of.
Start: Uzi, AK, Shotgun, Handgun
Mid-Level: Mk23s, M3, Xm8, Tec9
High-Level: Sg552, Daewoo, Artillery Cannon, and a New Handgun.

So a weapon of each class is available in an inf. supply. I notice players value weapons based on their rarity, so due to these having no rarity, new players will ALWAYS be able to afford them.

All classes:
Handgun
SMG
Assault Rifle
Shotgun

(Heavy Artillery they'd have to work on when they are "well-accomplished".)
Ex. SD Cannon, Flak, Gatlin Guns, Mini-Gun etc etc.

This is something our ever so useful Business Admin should be thinking of.

I never said you wouldn't retain more money, but you're also losing more money than you should be. If you have a fixed percentage tax, the richer person still will lose more money than the poorer. But why you should increase the amount they are taxed simply because they have more money, that makes no sense to me. That is punishment for succeeding. It's a short-sighted, poor way to remove money from an economy. Will it throw you, the rich player, into an immediate economic down-spiral that results in your own demise? Of course not. But will it be a discouraging factor? It should be.

As for the dislike of taxes in games - good, we agree on something. I already said that you could introduce gun repairs/upkeep. That's the biggest problem, really. Once something's released, it never decays or breaks. So it's always at maximum, peak value. The only way to lessen its value is to release more. You could stabilize the economy a bit by having all weapons available from shops at all times. That would ensure the player market doesn't get out of control, but it'd also pretty much kill the player market in general. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your own opinion/dealings with the player market.

Yeah, a lot of money/items have been spawned or obtained through fraudulent means. Shouldn't mean we just tolerate it and tax them more heavily. There are some legitimate rich players, they shouldn't have to suffer just because it's assumed that everyone that is rich cheated. And besides, there shouldn't be any kind of spawning/glitch abuse that goes unpunished or unaddressed. Obviously that's something that happens much more frequently because the server's staff is drawn from the player-base. It's getting better, from what I'm seeing. It'll never completely die out, especially on a server like Era....but still.

If you are just suddenly taking money from people, they're going to be pissed. If you implement a new system to make money, it won't fix anything. If you sell guns like sg552s at an npc shop, nobody would ever bother to make more money than that. If you implement a system that takes money from the rich and gives them an item in exchange (IE ww2 shop), then those items will just become priceless again and nothing will be changed. And this happens in every regular game. Every RPG I've ever played has the occasional crazy disgusting weapons that nobody in the world can afford. There's only a few of them on Era, the only difference is that 5 : 200 is a lot worse than 5 : 6000000.

If you want my opinion, I've said for a long time we should implement a series of new quests with prizes like certain undroppable hats or some that lead to shops, like the xm8 mk23 shop. Others yet would give like 10 undroppable buffs and can be completed once a day by any player. Only, this time, make the quests WAY harder and possibly have items that the player is required to purchase prior to entering the quest. Maybe they need to bribe a security guard for 5000 dollars, etc. This way, between the door charge, the price of food, the price of ammo, and the probable cost of losing the quest (which apparently wasn't important in the previous quests, which one trial can walk through on his own with a handgun and probably not die). Also, the poorer people wouldn't be partaking in the quests as often because they don't have as much money to throw away. Therefore, the ones who worked for their money still have a bit of an advantage, so nobody gets angry, but their advantage will be constantly being reduced.

And Wil, sorry your "ever so useful Business Admin" thinks that barely changing what's already implemented to include stronger guns that would mess the economy up 4x as hard as it already is might not be the best idea. The reason some of them arent' at infinite stock is because they'd be too overpowered at infinite stock.

People talking about socialism and progressive taxes, seriously? This is a video game, guys. Do I really need to worry about my hard-earned virtual-money going to "building new roads in our community?" Are you guys turning in to robin hood? Maybe people could have a little fun on Era if every once in a while they would treat it like a game.

Seeing as most of that response is a pure squirm for confirmation. I'll reply to the portion dealing with my point, and let you all take of yours.

In any event, you're making claims without anything to back them.
By mid-level and HIGH-Level, I never meant with enough power to compete with Era's Rare Items. I simply used those tiers as a way to distinguish the guns from the preceding ones.

High-Level Weapons will not exceed what we know as the nowaday (Sg552, or Artillery Cannon).. which in the player-market are worth under a 100,000 dollars combined. Mid-Level weapons are worth from 18-30,000 dollars. Low-Level Weapons are worth 5-15,000$. Do you understand concept? If you limit these items, their value will rise. Weapon Values are MAINLY measured by their rarity.

Ex. The Xm8 in my opinion is better than the M4. Yet due to its rarity, the M4 has a much higher value.

If players want to be content with Sg552 and guns of that tier. Then so be it, but they will still be able to compete in the PK-Field. Most-often they would then have the tools they need to work the player-market and obtain weapons of a higher class. Ex. If you have every weapon in the Sg552 tier, you can afford a Sten or guns in a much higher tier.

Thats my point, its not to buff anything at all. So before you make assumptions, think... I beg of you.

Giving an item an infinite stock, actually lessens its value and is disservice to the item. Not the other way around, I thought someone who boasts of his "experience" would understand that simple concept. A novelty nickel is only as valuable as the # of the in the world. If they are fluent, then it loses value. In sense, Quantity deducts from Quality.:\

1. You literally JUST said "infinite stock."

2. "Pure squirm for confirmation" -- what the hell are you talking about?

3. I told you why I disagree with your plan, I still do for the exact same reasons, even though you've now babbled off about "well I wouldn't need to buff anything!" I have no idea what your last post was even about, because it had nothing to do with my response.

Edit: I get what you were trying to say now. My point is nobody is going to be "happier" by throwing an sg552 and a brand new handgun into an unstick me shop so that any random person with money can buy them. We need to take OUT these guns, not release more of them into the public. I don't care if it would make them WORTH less, they're still overpowered and leave noobs with handguns/uzis/aks COMPLETELY useless against them.

put a shop with every guns @ 30 stocks each and let everyone fight for them