Graal Community

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Crono

There was only one real Graalympics and funny enough I was in it for the most unlikely server. The sparring section of that had, what, 8 competitors? The GST on FB alone rivals the playercounts of Graal's largest PC servers. Brett doesn't spar on iClassic.

Quantity over quality? NJ won the biggest sparring tournament on PC Graal (I only took 3rd place ;_; ) although your FB tournament may have had more people in it. I guess we can just say the unofficial one didn't count, I mean Tortoise won that and who cares about that hacking ***got.

Originally Posted by Crono

No, and if I actually took sparring seriously and practiced in series vs top tier sparrers im confident I could take them. I spar once or twice then go ADD off to other games.

My point still stands then.

Originally Posted by Crono

Like I said, strafing is a technical advantage but you don't need it to win against someone of equal skill.

I really, really doubt someone could win consistently in a series against someone with high skill who can strafe when they cannot. Taking a few spars is not the same as winning against them consistently, which is what real sparrers strive for.

Originally Posted by Crono

This is what I mean though, your view of iClassic spar is skewed.

I can't help but feel that it's inferior. Over 10 years of evolving metagame on PC sparring just inherently seems superior. iKids don't even know what sidehits are, may not realize PC Graal exists, and apparently think you don't need strafing! The hell kind of **** is that?

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Hiro

Quantity over quality? NJ won the biggest sparring tournament on PC Graal (I only took 3rd place ;_; ) although your FB tournament may have had more people in it. I guess we can just say the unofficial one didn't count, I mean Tortoise won that and who cares about that hacking ***got.


My point still stands then.


I really, really doubt someone could win consistently in a series against someone with high skill who can strafe when they cannot. Taking a few spars is not the same as winning against them consistently, which is what real sparrers strive for.

Wait, wait, wait. Is all this really just to justify that strafing in a spar is reason enough to not converge the Graal community and re-vitalize PC Graal? None of that actually matters if spar rooms were dedicated to particular platforms and it doesn't effect high tier spars at all, so what are you complaining about?

Originally Posted by Hiro

I can't help but feel that it's inferior. Over 10 years of evolving metagame on PC sparring just inherently seems superior. iKids don't even know what sidehits are, may not realize PC Graal exists, and apparently think you don't need strafing! The hell kind of **** is that?

Graal's sparring metagame evolved slowly, whereas the iSparrers got a kickstart when the PC community began sparring there. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I don't think so. I've watched "higher level" sparrers spar, and not a single strafe was given that day.

Praydoh a "higher level sparrer" lololol

And you do realize that there is strafing going on there right? Some of those movements are impossible without it. It's especially obvious when either of them blink, and Squirt utilizes the strafing better to move while holding the blink (and abuses walls like he always does) and looks like he won pretty easily.

Originally Posted by Crono

Wait, wait, wait. Is all this really just to justify that strafing in a spar is reason enough to not converge the Graal community and re-vitalize PC Graal? None of that actually matters if spar rooms were dedicated to particular platforms and it doesn't effect high tier spars at all, so what are you complaining about?

No. I have not been arguing about whether or not the two communities should converge, I've only been concerned with the sparring discussion of strafing. If the iCommunity complains about being at a disadvantage about not being able to strafe, I have to agree with them. It's a pretty large disadvantage, and they won't be a challenge for someone with access to it.

But let the two converge, whatever. I'll still dislike the platform they're on because it exists at all. As I've already mentioned, having Graal on iPhone makes me feel like PC Graal has been pushed aside, like they want it to just die out and be forgotten. Maybe that's not how Stefan or Unixmad view it, but that's how it feels to me, and others I've talked with share my sentiments. Not everyone of course, but a lot of my friends do, at least the ones who are left who still are my friends. Perhaps that opinion has died out even more - I haven't been able to log on in 5 months now since I've been in Europe.

Originally Posted by Crono

Graal's sparring metagame evolved slowly, whereas the iSparrers got a kickstart when the PC community began sparring there. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

That was bound to happen, they had to be introduced to it somehow and obviously some PC players would get on the iDevices. If they can't even strafe then they won't have access to some strategies, at least not in the way they're typically used. I'm sure they'll eventually evolve their own metagame.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Hiro

No. I have not been arguing about whether or not the two communities should converge, I've only been concerned with the sparring discussion of strafing. If the iCommunity complains about being at a disadvantage about not being able to strafe, I have to agree with them. It's a pretty large disadvantage, and they won't be a challenge for someone with access to it.

But let the two converge, whatever. I'll still dislike the platform they're on because it exists at all. As I've already mentioned, having Graal on iPhone makes me feel like PC Graal has been pushed aside, like they want it to just die out and be forgotten. Maybe that's not how Stefan or Unixmad view it, but that's how it feels to me, and others I've talked with share my sentiments. Not everyone of course, but a lot of my friends do, at least the ones who are left who still are my friends. Perhaps that opinion has died out even more - I haven't been able to log on in 5 months now since I've been in Europe.

PC Graal was has been rotting from incompetence since v5's release. The iServers have raked in more players than we've ever seen on this game and PC Graal's only real salvation post subscription-fix is convergence.

Originally Posted by Hiro

That was bound to happen, they had to be introduced to it somehow and obviously some PC players would get on the iDevices. If they can't even strafe then they won't have access to some strategies, at least not in the way they're typically used. I'm sure they'll eventually evolve their own metagame.

Doesn't stop iSparrers from beating PC users and even hopping on FB and competing + beating UN based guilds like Mother (consisting of Talbourn, Zeross, etc) in the GST. Smurf if you have to, but I want you to make a fake FB, get on iClassic, and start sparring because your view is incredibly off.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Crono

PC Graal was has been rotting from incompetence since v5's release. The iServers have raked in more players than we've ever seen on this game and PC Graal's only real salvation post subscription-fix is convergence.

While I don't disagree, it still is the case that instead of them fixing the incompetence, they just go and create and entirely new thing to eventually be incompetent about. Then they can take the two and put them together and be incompetent about both of them.

Originally Posted by Crono

Doesn't stop iSparrers from beating PC users and even hopping on FB and competing + beating UN based guilds like Mother (consisting of Talbourn, Zeross, etc) in the GST. Smurf if you have to, but I want you to make a fake FB, get on iClassic, and start sparring because your view is incredibly off.

I'll do this at the end of the month, when I'm not on an IBM keyboard that freezes up when you hit more than 4 keys at once.

I'll log on with no practice for over 8 months (Pretty sure that's how long it's been since I really sparred. I did spar like 3-4 times before leaving for Europe (and still won) but I wouldn't call that being practiced) and series some kids. I'll be the definitive PC sparrer to represent over 10 years of "PC Sparring" even though I'm not considered the best of all time, and you round up all the top iSparrers to try and defeat me. No PC-users-turned-idevice-users allowed. It'll be fun - maybe you'll be right, maybe I'll be right. If you want to do tag-teams I can ask Zid to come with me and we'll reform skullgang.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Hiro

Praydoh a "higher level sparrer" lololol

Yeah, I think so. Especially going by your own logic here, where he has won UTC quite a few times and spars on par with the people that Crono mentioned:

Originally Posted by Hiro

I mean come on dude, have you ever even won UTC? You would lose to every single person you've mentioned in a series, easily if they're on top of their game.

That video is from a UTC final round.

Originally Posted by Hiro

And you do realize that there is strafing going on there right? Some of those movements are impossible without it. It's especially obvious when either of them blink, and Squirt utilizes the strafing better to move while holding the blink (and abuses walls like he always does) and looks like he won pretty easily.

I guess this is where your inexperience on the ACTUAL subject shows. Squirt does nothing in that spar that you cannot do on an iPod. If you look at the last round in the video especially, all Squirt does is circle PrayDoh to hit him. I see once where he tries to strafe, hit and it doesn't land. That is why I do not believe that strafing is necessary for "higher sparring" as you put it. Many of the iPod sparrers on iPhone Classic spar like this, and I've actually seen him do it himself on an iPod.

Originally Posted by Hiro

I'll log on with no practice for over 8 months (Pretty sure that's how long it's been since I really sparred. I did spar like 3-4 times before leaving for Europe (and still won) but I wouldn't call that being practiced) and series some kids. I'll be the definitive PC sparrer to represent over 10 years of "PC Sparring" even though I'm not considered the best of all time, and you round up all the top iSparrers to try and defeat me. No PC-users-turned-idevice-users allowed. It'll be fun - maybe you'll be right, maybe I'll be right. If you want to do tag-teams I can ask Zid to come with me and we'll reform skullgang.

This arrogance is embarrassing, especially considering that you've always lagged to your own advantage in the last few times I've seen you spar on Unholy Nation.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I guess this is where your inexperience on the ACTUAL subject shows. Squirt does nothing in that spar that you cannot do on an iPod. If you look at the last round in the video especially, all Squirt does is circle PrayDoh to hit him. I see once where he tries to strafe, hit and it doesn't land. That is why I do not believe that strafing is necessary for "higher sparring" as you put it. Many of the iPod sparrers on iPhone Classic spar like this, and I've actually seen him do it himself on an iPod.

Perhaps the movements are to miniscule for you to really notice them? Or perhaps you don't understand how blink-mechanics work well enough to know how to move sideways while holding the blink - a movement which in certain directions requires strafing? Go to 1 minute, and watch how Praydoh moves upwards to the left to hold his blink - that movement is not possible on IBM keyboards because you cannot strafe in that direction.

Or maybe you didn't see how there were practically zero sidehits the entire spar, a technique which requires strafing to pull off without the opponent running into you?

Using Praydoh, who is an above average sparrer but and certainty NOT on par with those Crono mentioned, and Squirt, who uses walls to his advantage more than anything to win as examples of not needing strafing to win is pretty poor.

What is with you and Crono suddenly thinking you know how to spar? Has the population decreased so drastically that you're considered good now? You guys are decent, sure, but high tier? I'm sorry, but no.

Originally Posted by Rufus

This arrogance is embarrassing, especially considering that you've always lagged to your own advantage in the last few times I've seen you spar on Unholy Nation.

Now you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Anyone who knows how I spar knows that I get better the less I lag. I'm a defensive ***** who only attacks where I can score sidehits, land an easy move-to-where-they're-going-to-be-after-getting-hit hit (which is what I only used to do before blink was fixed) or because they get sick of chasing me around and I switch things up and go all out offense until they try again. The less I lag, the more likely I am to mindtrick someone in to allowing me to hit them, or forcing them to run into my sword.

This is the difference between me holding an average 2k/high 1900 rating versus the 1800 or so I've held the last few years. Sparrers I typically beat actually beat me more consistently because I'm lagging.

The lag I have been experiencing is why I've slowly sparred less and less, up until now where I hardly spar at all. I've even sat out of those friendly tag-team spars that pop up BECAUSE I lag too much. Is that using lag to my advantage - not sparring at all because of it?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Hiro

Go to 1 minute, and watch how Praydoh moves upwards to the left to hold his blink - that movement is not possible on IBM keyboards because you cannot strafe in that direction.

All I see at 1 minute is Prado getting hit three times in a row by Squirt who is not strafing at all. Must be my lack of spar skills, or hell, could it be that without side strafing you can compete at higher levels of sparring? Or maybe Squirt, who won the tournament, isn't high enough level for you. Etc etc.

Originally Posted by Hiro

Or maybe you didn't see how there were practically zero sidehits the entire spar, a technique which requires strafing to pull off without the opponent running into you?

There are several side hits throughout the video. Yes, there is a bias towards right-facing hits, but there are still left-facing hits which cannot be strafed.

Originally Posted by Hiro

What is with you and Crono suddenly thinking you know how to spar? Has the population decreased so drastically that you're considered good now? You guys are decent, sure, but high tier? I'm sorry, but no.

I'm pretty sure that neither of us even implied that we were 'high tier' but that is not relevant at all. It does not take someone who is 'high tier' to know how to spar on a PC, have access to iPods, and have sparred on both to understand the limitations. You haven't done this, so how you can think you're some big guru on the subject is beyond me.

Originally Posted by Hiro

The lag I have been experiencing is why I've slowly sparred less and less, up until now where I hardly spar at all. I've even sat out of those friendly tag-team spars that pop up BECAUSE I lag too much. Is that using lag to my advantage - not sparring at all because of it?

Okay so you lag and you're saying **** like "I'll be the definitive PC sparrer to represent over 10 years of "PC Sparring" even though I'm not considered the best of all time, and you round up all the top iSparrers to try and defeat me." Yeah no, that's definitely an arrogant and embarrassing attitude to me.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Rufus

All I see at 1 minute is Prado getting hit three times in a row by Squirt who is not strafing at all. Must be my lack of spar skills, or hell, could it be that without side strafing you can compete at higher levels of sparring? Or maybe Squirt, who won the tournament, isn't high enough level for you. Etc etc.

I was talking about Praydoh's movements. I even told you the direction he was going. So I guess you really can't tell.

Originally Posted by Rufus

There are several side hits throughout the video. Yes, there is a bias towards right-facing hits, but there are still left-facing hits which cannot be strafed.

Sidehits are not simply "hits taken from the side" as the face-value of the term suggests.

Originally Posted by Rufus

I'm pretty sure that neither of us even implied that we were 'high tier' but that is not relevant at all. It does not take someone who is 'high tier' to know how to spar on a PC, have access to iPods, and have sparred on both to understand the limitations. You haven't done this, so how you can think you're some big guru on the subject is beyond me.

All I've been arguing is that strafing is necessary for good sparring. The only argument back is "you can win without it" which is like saying you can use the numpad to move around and win but you'll be at an obvious disadvantage, and no one good does that.

Originally Posted by Rufus

Okay so you lag and you're saying **** like "I'll be the definitive PC sparrer to represent over 10 years of "PC Sparring" even though I'm not considered the best of all time, and you round up all the top iSparrers to try and defeat me." Yeah no, that's definitely an arrogant and embarrassing attitude to me.

Sure, I'm ****y when it comes to sparring, what of it? I win a lot.

And I'll fix up my lag once I'm home. I got a new router recently which I think was most of my lag problem (I hope).