Debate: Should N-Pulse Remain on the Classic Tab?

[SlikRick]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I don't believe that you are not aware of the issues, considering it took the grand total of 5 minutes for my map to break and it has been like this for years.

Was that so hard? Yes I am aware of this issue and we have been trying to come up with a solution on how to fix this, but haven't had any luck yet obviously. We have asked Tig to come on and help fix it, seeing as he was the one who converted everything over to gmap and reuploaded everything after it was done, but only answers we get out of him is "Consider it a learning experience for N-Pulse.". So we are supposed to know how to fix something when none of us have extensive Gmap troubleshooting experience, and the GDT who are supposed to be here to help servers just give smartass answers, are supposed to magicly get everything fixed? If any of you know how to fix this error or have an idea on something that might work, please feel free to contact me in game or send me a message on the Forums.

[Switch]

Originally Posted by SlikRick

Was that so hard? Yes I am aware of this issue and we have been trying to come up with a solution on how to fix this, but haven't had any luck yet obviously. We have asked Tig to come on and help fix it, seeing as he was the one who converted everything over to gmap and reuploaded everything after it was done, but only answers we get out of him is "Consider it a learning experience for N-Pulse.". So we are supposed to know how to fix something when none of us have extensive Gmap troubleshooting experience, and the GDT who are supposed to be here to help servers just give smartass answers, are supposed to magicly get everything fixed? If any of you know how to fix this error or have an idea on something that might work, please feel free to contact me in game or send me a message on the Forums.

Redo the GMAP. Make it what you want it to be for your next project. Stick to that GMAP and you won't need many level designers.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by SlikRick

Was that so hard? Yes I am aware of this issue and we have been trying to come up with a solution on how to fix this, but haven't had any luck yet obviously. We have asked Tig to come on and help fix it, seeing as he was the one who converted everything over to gmap and reuploaded everything after it was done, but only answers we get out of him is "Consider it a learning experience for N-Pulse.". So we are supposed to know how to fix something when none of us have extensive Gmap troubleshooting experience, and the GDT who are supposed to be here to help servers just give smartass answers, are supposed to magicly get everything fixed? If any of you know how to fix this error or have an idea on something that might work, please feel free to contact me in game or send me a message on the Forums.

Well, in all fairness, the reason I forced the map over to a gmap is because when v6 comes out, those text maps aren't supported. I wanted to give you guys plenty of time to prepare for v6 by converting your map to a gmap early. The only reason I actually converted it myself is because no other staff member knew how to do it.

Most of the problems you're experiencing can be fixed with some things as simple as LATs editing levels, and others (like npcs) are just as simple as an x/y offset.

[6Burning6Church6]

Originally Posted by TSAdmin

There's no case of double standards when the promise for redemption within both situations differs. Rebirth had more promise for redemption on main than the dev server's existence for Delteria. Simply existing is one thing, moving along the path to redeem the server and showing that progress is being made makes all the difference to buying time. As I have already mentioned before, I am not making any promises about undiscussed topics, but with the fall of Rebirth the chances are high for doing what you're stating - Removing it for the same reason Delteria was.

If you didn't get that from the beginning, perhaps you will now.

You know, you're right. You haven't really said anything negative about Delteria and I apologize. As Cloven said I kinda have tunnel vision when it comes to Delt, and while reading the thread for the first time I saw so much of pojo's posts defending Delteria that I kinda misread this as something worse than it was. Although I don't see how Rebirth was more promising than Delt Dev, this really isn't that slanderous. I do think you should check your facts before making such statements though, being that if you saw progress on Delteria you'd probably pull a 180 on these views.


Now off to more rambling!!! I remember when Bell had told Delteria they were in danger of being taken off of the hosted tab, at this time they had already begun rescripting the levels on the classic server and even started hosting weekly events again. Maintaining the live server seems to be what is required of you to keep from being taken off of classic, yet this is something NPulse isn't doing and Delteria was making an attempt to do, yet you somehow flip your views around to make it seem as though NPulse is fine not doing this and Delteria doing this would have had no impact on them being taken down or not. It's very confusing imho and I think you should clarify whether yo are or aren't requiring Classic servers to maintain their live server while performing heavy construction on a Dev server. Again, I don't disagree with you saying N-Pulse should remain Classic, however, I think if you are to continue arguing with people you need a clear set of standards and not a set of rules that changes depending on who is talking about said rules and who the target of the conversation is. Your enforcement seems very circumstantial to me.

I'm trying not to digress here, but as I said I have wall of text syndrom so bear with me. Maintaining the live server actually took away from time that the developers were spending on making the new server which is why, as stated earlier, Delteria requested themselves be taken off of the classic tab as they didn't have time to maintain the live server and still develop the new server. I honestly think this is where the GDT is needed most. It's already too late to revive the old Delteria Gmap at this point, however N-Pulse still has a chance if they get some help. I don't know what the GDT is doing with their time, but one of their main jobs should be to maintain Classic servers that aren't doing it themselves. Not to say that it isn't the responsibility of the servers management, however, if the management fails to do so you should try to help them out rather than make veiled threats. (which it seems is what you are trying to do with N-Pulse by not taking them down, which I commend you for, however I think you should try to refrain from feeding the public with replies and justifications as you will have people like Pojo making posts about how you took or threatened to take Delteria or some other server down for basically being in the same position).

As stated by Fulg, N-Pulse at the current moment simply does not have the resources to work on two projects at once right now. Isn't this what the GDT is there for? I don't expect you, as a PWA to be able to do much other than nudge the managers in the right direction, however, I think you guys need major staff structure reform to have the GDT either work with or even under the PWA and be assigned to help certain servers. Whether it be a Classic server that is struggling to maintain their live server while working on a development project, or a hosted server that is very promising, almost complete, but having a hard time making the fine touches.


I'd also like to say that I agree with you 100% about UN being on par, or better, than both N-Pulse and Delteria in their current states. This, however, has nothing to do with the fact that you still have not picked a server to replace Delteria, Doomsday, or any other server that has been taken off of the classic tab. The amount of servers to pick from off of the classic tab is shrinking rapidly (well...kinda slowly actually :P) and if there isn't a server worthy of being put up then you guys need to find some of the closest ones ready to go Classic and force the GDT to help them get ready for a release.

I guess this should go into a thread criticizing the way the GDT is run, however, this does have very much to do with N-Pulse and it's current state and what is actually needed for the server. I've stated it several times but I'll say it again: They need help from the staff team that was created for the purposes of helping servers in need!!!!!!!

Again, sorry for getting so hostile towards ya TSA, like I said, I get tunnel vision and I mostly scanned through the thread and noticed a lot of Pojo's defensive posts about Delteria without realizing there were no offensive posts for him to defend it from. I do still feel, however, that you guys need serious restructuring in how things are run on Graal before you wind up chasing away the few volunteers you have left with all the red tape and constant rule changes. You need to set up some strict guidelines of what is required of a classic server, you need to clarify what, if anything, will get a server taken off of Classic status instead of winging it and basing the decision off of how the majority of the PWA's feel about a particular server at that very moment.

[Matt]

Here's my answer and reply.

No. I don't say this because I work there and don't want to work for a private server, but for the fact that we haven't been given proper assistance from the GDT, at all plain and simple, and because i think it's a wee bit too early to have an official debate on this topic to be honest after a drastic change in direction. As it's been stated about 2-3 times now, Rebirth has not been cancelled, but set aside to get in compliance with what everyone is apparently complaining about, which is Classic Tab requirements. Management and Administration have noticed we need to step it up majorly about 1 year ago. I can't say we have lazy staff, because we don't. SlikRick and I don't even deal with lazy staff.

After our realization of needing a big change, development production went up drastically, the activity of most of our staff was real good and it was just going good overall. Not much could be seen or told to the public in regards to Rebirth because of previous Management, and because of that I really think it killed a lot of the staff motivation. Especially considering most work could not be 'shown' off until the project was completely done, and we all know there was a ways to go. There still is now, but not nearly as much as there was a year ago.

N-Pulse management has concerned me ever since I started working/playing there. And I won't name anyone, but there was a group of us who did not agree with management, at all or in any aspect. That wasn't going to be dealt with, and by the end of that big change had come. My point of that little story is to make sure that everyone knows that there was a BIG change in Management from Chang to SlikRick. I know a good amount of developers could care less about N-Pulse because of this whole Rebirth thing, but I’d like to say that you should give N-Pulse a second chance, and help us in our development.

I know a lot of people, including some friends, which declined working on N-Pulse because of it's management before SlikRick, and the fact that they just didn't like the ideas and/or plans for Rebirth. We have come a long way really, and honestly, and I think putting Rebirth on the back-burner is a grand idea, and we won't have such a hard time maintaining our classic tab requirements if Rebirth doesn't have to be worried about, at all. Assuming that this debate thread was created in reference to what SlikRick posted in the N-Pulse section....I’m almost positive Bell or any of the PWA are going to jump to remove N-Pulse after a big change like this without giving us a second chance, and listening to our new plans.

[6Burning6Church6]

I honestly don't think you guys should be forced to put Rebirth onto the backburner like you are. I think the GDT should step in and help you with straightening up the live server so the few developers you have can focus their efforts on the Rebirth project as they have been doing for the passed couple of years. I also think that the GDT should be available to help you with progression through the Rebirth development to make that go even faster. Graal's developers are getting thinner and thinner every year, and now the bulk of the best are working for the "GDT" who do nothing but write up wiki articles and now are even talking about dedicating their time to a server that is nowhere near completion.

Honestly you are suffering from the same fate as any other server who has tried to help Graal evolve into a better platform. You get ridiculed by people who can't help you, and probably wouldn't even if they had the talent to do so, and you get shrugged off by the GDT when you ask them for help. It's sad really, but that's the fate of a game run by volunteers. It'd be a big help if somebody in charge of these "global" teams decided to make some rules and standards of which the "global" teams would perform, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

The GDT is currently reforming as I hear, getting new members and leaders and whatnot, so maybe if enough people point out that they should be helping the game as a whole instead of dedicating all their time to whatever server they personally want to see completed things will change. Though I highly doubt any amount of pointing out what they should do will change their actions, they're too used to being stuck in their old ways.

In a way I'm glad I don't get involved with Graal politics too often anymore. Though I do miss pointing out all the flaws they have still yet to even attempt to fix in their way of running things.

[cbk1994]

Don't wait up for the GDT to help.

[fowlplay4]

Which members of the GDT did you ask? If they are abandoning projects that they made commitments to they should be removed from the team.

[6Burning6Church6]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

Which members of the GDT did you ask? If they are abandoning projects that they made commitments to they should be removed from the team.

The problem is that they don't make commitments to anything they don't feel like doing, and are not required to do anything. Not that they make commitments and don't follow through. I never once had any GDT so much as respond to a plea for help, much less make a commitment and back out, or even so much as decline a request for help.

Last time I was active in the Graal community almost every GDT member was working strictly with Kingdoms, being nothing more than a GK developer with a global RC. I dunno what they do nowadays, but hearing stories from N-Pulse staff they haven't changed too much at all and still only work on whatever they personally feel deserves their attention. People supporting the idea of them working on building 2k1, a server that is nowhere near close to done, is certainly not going to help them change their ways in the future and actually help out servers who deserve their attention and could be completed within a few months if they had some extra development help.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Matt

I don't say this because i work there and don't want to work for a private server, but for the fact that we haven't been given proper assistance from the GDT

Originally Posted by Matt

Management and Administration have noticed we need to step it up majorly about 1 year ago. I can't say we have lazy staff, because we don't. SlikRick and myself don't even deal with lazy staff.

So do you have incompetent staff or what? I don't see why you're shifting the blame onto the 'lack of GDT' help.

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by 6Burning6Church6

post

Completely ignored my question there.

[6Burning6Church6]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

Completely ignored my question there.

If I could even remember who was on the GDT team back then I may be able to give you a list of names. Sadly I don't and my post was all related to your statement of them "abandoning projects". If they don't go on board with a project that requests their help in the first place how could they abandon said project?

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by 6Burning6Church6

If I could even remember who was on the GDT team back then I may be able to give you a list of names. Sadly I don't and my post was all related to your statement of them "abandoning projects". If they don't go on board with a project that requests their help in the first place how could they abandon said project?

Considering your posts were giving me the vibe that you work for N-Pulse, and that you had asked for help but didn't receive anything. I was trying to find out who's abandoning projects.

You also seem to be confusing the old GST with the new GDT, we don't get **** all for rights other than a sub-forum on here.

[SlikRick]

Originally Posted by Rufus

So do you have incompetent staff or what? I don't see why you're shifting the blame onto the 'lack of GDT' help.

If we don't tolerate lazy staff why would we tolerate incompetent staff? The developers we have had over the past few months were great, but conflicts with their lives arose and they would have to quit. GDT help has been requested and the only one that has come to contribute, besides the GDT members that already work on N-Pulse, was Soala. We could only get so far without getting the help we really needed, which was with scripting. People join GDT to get the cool global tag, but when it comes down to it very few of them are willing to go out and help those that actually need it. Most just help out their friends server and throw on the GDT tag to look cool.

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by SlikRick

If we don't tolerate lazy staff why would we tolerate incompetent staff? The developers we have had over the past few months were great, but conflicts with their lives arose and they would have to quit. GDT help has been requested and the only one that has come to contribute, besides the GDT members that already work on N-Pulse, was Soala. We could only get so far without getting the help we really needed, which was with scripting. People join GDT to get the cool global tag, but when it comes down to it very few of them are willing to go out and help those that actually need it. Most just help out their friends server and throw on the GDT tag to look cool.

Who did you ask, and how?

[6Burning6Church6]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

Considering your posts were giving me the vibe that you work for N-Pulse, and that you had asked for help but didn't receive anything. I was trying to find out who's abandoning projects.

You also seem to be confusing the old GST with the new GDT, we don't get **** all for rights other than a sub-forum on here.

Nah, I actually hate N-Pulse, but am defending them the same way I'd defend Delteria. And yeah, it was just brought to my attention in another thread that the GDT don't have global RC's like the GST used to get. That's something Stefan needs to address as I don't see how the GDT can properly do their job without having RC access to at least the Classic servers.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Rufus

So do you have incompetent staff or what? I don't see why you're shifting the blame onto the 'lack of GDT' help.

I really don't mean to put any blame on them, but when your expectations are set to something, and receive nothing they become a part of our problem. Not much, but still something.

[Demisis_P2P]

Nobody on the N-Pulse staff team knows how to turn levels into a GMAP?
You guys need more help than the GDT can provide.

[xAndrewx]

hmm, if you want I can probably design a level generator which would copy all the levels and scripts over to a new overworld?

[Chakrah]

Delete N-Pulse, delete years of life wasted.

[Lord Sephiroth]

This sounds an awful lot like Babylon and Delteria.

I'm not gonna pretend like I've read any of the replies in this thread because I'm willing to bet theres like 6 different arguments going on and I'd be willing to bet Delteria was brought up, mostly cause I see Chance is in this thread, but alas..

3 years ago when N-Pulse started to suck more than it already sucked and progress had been halted, this question would be a no-brainer to leave them on the list and let them try to work their stuff out. At this point, I think it's time the PWA or whoever is in charge take the steps that they did with Babylon and Delteria.

As it is, N-Pulse is a server that can be developed without developers needing any Gold time, purely because they were on the classic list. As I understand it, while you're on the classic list, you don't need to make payments for your server. At least that's how it used to be. (I could be wrong on this, Matt feel free to correct me if I am)

This is just unfair to other servers. 2-3 years of no-progress, cancelled or changed plans, management changes, etc, they've gone down the same path Delteria and Babylon did and they should be treated the same. Give them another 2-3 months to make positive improvements, otherwise shut down then restart the server on the UC list so they aren't getting a free ride anymore.

[Crono]

wat about atlantis guise

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by Crono

wat about atlantis guise

It's really hard to say considering you can't understand anything on the server if you do not speak said language. It was taken down for it being in our current condition for longer than any of the servers mentioned for longer.

[xXziroXx]

People seem to think that you can just "request the help of GDT" and they'll send x amount of members over to your server to help you. Wrong. You need to contact the members induvidually asking them for help.

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

People seem to think that you can just "request the help of GDT" and they'll send x amount of members over to your server to help you. Wrong. You need to contact the members individually asking them for help.

If I didn't fix that I would go nuts..

Anyways, I agree with the fact that you shouldn't expect a swarm of developers to come to your aid on whim, But at the same time I think they should make it more... knowledgeable that they even exist for I didn't even know they existed until I got on graal forums, let alone who's in it.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Lord Sephiroth

As it is, N-Pulse is a server that can be developed without developers needing any Gold time, purely because they were on the classic list. As I understand it, while you're on the classic list, you don't need to make payments for your server. At least that's how it used to be. (I could be wrong on this, Matt feel free to correct me if I am)

This is just unfair to other servers. 2-3 years of no-progress, cancelled or changed plans, management changes, etc, they've gone down the same path Delteria and Babylon did and they should be treated the same. Give them another 2-3 months to make positive improvements, otherwise shut down then restart the server on the UC list so they aren't getting a free ride anymore.

Your correct on us not needing to make payments (Other than N-Pulse Debug.) I do agree we should be treated the same as other Classic servers, and we are. I'm sure PWA is eyeballing us, but we were given a chance to quickly get up to par with Classic Tab standards and requirements.

Originally Posted by Crono

wat about atlantis guise

I know right.

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

Nobody on the N-Pulse staff team knows how to turn levels into a GMAP?
You guys need more help than the GDT can provide.

Nice assumption i guess? But False.

This will be done soon, nobody let us know that there were glitches in the gmap, but now we now as previously stated, in this same exact thread.

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

People seem to think that you can just "request the help of GDT" and they'll send x amount of members over to your server to help you. Wrong. You need to contact the members induvidually asking them for help.

Which people, because contacting them individually is the exact same way i requested help. Granted this was before the big GDT Change in leadership in direction (If that's even what it's considered.), but still.

As soon as we receive backups we will be requesting help from the GDT, again.

[devilsknite1]

I don't feel like reading all 8 pages of this... Someone tell me what is so bad with N-Pulse? If it's player count, then Valikorlia would be gone too

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Re: GDT. I don't know about any other members, but I have never once been approached by any server during the time I've been part of the GDT.

Originally Posted by devilsknite1

I don't feel like reading all 8 pages of this... Someone tell me what is so bad with N-Pulse? If it's player count, then Valikorlia would be gone too

Erm. Valikorlia averages ~20 players. N-Pulse has, on average, a quarter of that.

http://statistics.graal.us/server/show/62
http://statistics.graal.us/server/show/112

Not to mention that Valikorlia is driven not by development, but by player storytelling.

[Akira_P2P]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Most of the problems you're experiencing can be fixed with some things as simple as LATs editing levels, and others (like npcs) are just as simple as an x/y offset.

I knew about these map glitches the day I started working on N-Pulse. Just yesterday I went to the places that Rufus was mentioning, one of which, was npulse_extra30.nw.

I can tell you now, it's not a simple x/y offset. If you see the glitch, and walk to it, then it turns into a completely different glitch. I'll upload a video to show you what I'm talking about. There's not a simple fix to this, as I've already looked into it, it's something that I'm not able to fix, nor any of the other staff on N-Pulse.

[cbk1994]

Somehow no other GMAPs have these problems, so I think it's fixable . It may require some work, though. You should have stopped using setmap years ago.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Akira_P2P

I knew about these map glitches the day I started working on N-Pulse. Just yesterday I went to the places that Rufus was mentioning, one of which, was npulse_extra30.nw.

I can tell you now, it's not a simple x/y offset. If you see the glitch, and walk to it, then it turns into a completely different glitch. I'll upload a video to show you what I'm talking about. There's not a simple fix to this, as I've already looked into it, it's something that I'm not able to fix, nor any of the other staff on N-Pulse.

Your problem is most likely caused by not having added the levels properly or in right order in the .gmap file.

[Akira_P2P]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mewUUGzisBs

That's what it does when I walk onto one of the glitches.
I'm aware that I walk into a completely different level at different points in the video, but there's still nothing wrong with the links from what I saw.

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Erm. Valikorlia averages ~20 players. N-Pulse has, on average, a quarter of that.

http://statistics.graal.us/server/show/62
http://statistics.graal.us/server/show/112

N-Pulse: 8
Valikorlia: 10

..What?

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Fulg0reSama

N-Pulse: 8
Valikorlia: 10

..What?

You're not helping your case, lol.

[Akira_P2P]

Well, I checked all of the levels, and the links are all good, the x/y's are all even. The levels join together correctly and the tiles are all linked together properly throughout all the links.


Only thing I'm seeing is, that these levels are actually np_extra.nw files, and they aren't part of a gmap. I'm still confused as to what there is to do to fix this problem though, in editor all these levels are perfect. It just seems that on the OW, they are 100% glitchy.

[Crono]

valikorlia has a unique purpose and role though

[Crow]

Originally Posted by Fulg0reSama

It's really hard to say considering you can't understand anything on the server if you do not speak said language. It was taken down for it being in our current condition for longer than any of the servers mentioned for longer.

Nope, was taken down on request; because we were developing fresh, new content. And eventually gave up. But it wasn't taken down for being dead

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by Crow

Nope, was taken down on request; because we were developing fresh, new content. And eventually gave up. But it wasn't taken down for being dead

Okay, Never really heard much about their shutdown,Thanks for clearing that up though the "taken down for being dead" comment was semi unnecessary for as I can remember it was dead when It was up but not really wanting to get into that, pretty offtopic.

[Akira_P2P]

Sorry guys, but I hate to refresh this and see no response to the problem at hand.. Please keep on topic.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Akira_P2P

Well, I checked all of the levels, and the links are all good, the x/y's are all even. The levels join together correctly and the tiles are all linked together properly throughout all the links.


Only thing I'm seeing is, that these levels are actually np_extra.nw files, and they aren't part of a gmap. I'm still confused as to what there is to do to fix this problem though, in editor all these levels are perfect. It just seems that on the OW, they are 100% glitchy.

The same thing happened on our Debug server about 8 or so months ago. Skyld came and fixed so i will request him to take a look again for us.