Developing should be free for servers that are staff-only

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

You're basically saying that someone that works at the registry of a gas station should help you change your tires.

you butchered the example. it's like someone selling you a car and giving you a key, and that's it - no gas in the car, no tires on it, no engine - it only looks like a car. responsibility isn't a facter here, it's whether or not the PWA or other global group should help servers out, since that's the entire point of graal as presented by you developers - to create content. sure they don't HAVE to help, and it's not their RESPONSIBILITY to help, but all that amounts to is that they don't want to help out because they don't. i find the other jobs being done by the PWA to be trivial, because honestly anyone could do it if they put the time into it. helping out new developers (or even experienced ones who seem to get more support than any other) isn't something that just anyone or any group can do, and it's an area of graal that lacks considerably. frankly, it's sicken to see this "leave it alone" attitude taken on by you developers

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Yes, we would find someone to help you, but chances are we wouldn't do it ourselves. You may get lucky and find one of us popping on to help depending on the situation (example: in case of economic emergency where a scripter messed up and items are being duplicated in mass amounts), but for the most part it's your responsibility to develop your content, not ours. We are a safety net at best..

and chances are that no one would help, even if we contacted them. at least if a global, who has some social significance to graal, asks someone to help out, they might think about it. and again, you only choose to be a safety net, at best. you could be doing a lot more to push some new content into graal, but instead you let it sit and marinate until the **** can't smell any worse

[salesman]

Originally Posted by Hiro

you butchered the example. it's like someone selling you a car and giving you a key, and that's it - no gas in the car, no tires on it, no engine - it only looks like a car.

Have to disagree with you here...Graal isn't saying they will give us something and then not providing it...they're just not saying or doing anything.

What really bugs me, and what intially sparked the creation of this thread, is that if we tried to define what Graal is, we would get different answers. The website advertises it as some stupid kiddy game (and "oh yea, create your own world too!"), and then Stefan tells the community it is a development platform.

Well, what the **** is Graal? If you want to advertise it as a game, then support your game, develop new servers, and provide frequent updates. If you want to call it a development platform, then update the tools, document everything properly, provide tutorials, and change the stupid site.

Until CJ takes a clear path and the distinction is made, I will consider Graal a game. If they're going to continue leave it to the players to maintain their game, then they should at least do so without requiring us to hand them money all the time.


edit: you should probably change to stupid site no matter what you consider Graal

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Hiro

you butchered the example. it's like someone selling you a car and giving you a key, and that's it - no gas in the car, no tires on it, no engine - it only looks like a car. responsibility isn't a facter here, it's whether or not the PWA or other global group should help servers out, since that's the entire point of graal as presented by you developers - to create content. sure they don't HAVE to help, and it's not their RESPONSIBILITY to help, but all that amounts to is that they don't want to help out because they don't. i find the other jobs being done by the PWA to be trivial, because honestly anyone could do it if they put the time into it. helping out new developers (or even experienced ones who seem to get more support than any other) isn't something that just anyone or any group can do, and it's an area of graal that lacks considerably. frankly, it's sicken to see this "leave it alone" attitude taken on by you developers

You are asking support staff to provide developers with development-related help. Brilliant.

Originally Posted by Hiro

and chances are that no one would help, even if we contacted them. at least if a global, who has some social significance to graal, asks someone to help out, they might think about it. and again, you only choose to be a safety net, at best. you could be doing a lot more to push some new content into graal, but instead you let it sit and marinate until the **** can't smell any worse

We have no control over the content being pushed into Graal, unless you're talking about Hosted and Classic servers being approved, but that's not the PWAs fault if they are not being produced, that's yours.

You've perpetually shown that you do not understand the role of the PWA, so let me inform you.

I feel like I shouldn't have to take the time to write this to someone, but I will take special time since you don't seem to understand.

The PWA does:

• Check servers for illegal, copyrighted, inappropriate content.
• Inspect servers when the server developers feel that they are ready to go Hosted/Classic.
• Investigate and settle disputes about abusive and corrupt behavior.
• Read and reply to all support tickets submitted to the playerworlds section (handling anywhere from harassment to playerworld issues).
• Act as a safety net for when servers have been taken over or economies are being ruined by staff.
• Help manage and monitor the community of Graal, and help build a bridge between players and upper management (Stefan, unixmad, etc). We can be your voice.

The PWA does not, nor should they have to:

• Develop content for your server.
• Fix your scripting mistakes -- get a NAT.
• Teach you how to level.
• Help you learn how to do anything development related.
• Get involved with your projects.

We are starting a separate team, it's called the Global Development Team, which may help you out since you seem to advocate having people doing all your work for you instead of learning how to do it yourself. However, if someone truly feels the need to remain ignorant and continue to pay for a server, that's perfectly fine, but they will not receive any help from the team. You must put forth effort to learn how to develop things on your own as well. If you don't learn how to develop, that is not my problem and it's not the PWAs problem. In fact, it's no ones problem except your own.

You seem to be trying to blame things on the PWA when it truly has absolutely nothing to do with what you're complaining about, which is just a lack of available developers to help you with your project. Again, this is not the PWAs fault, in fact, you are more at fault for it than the PWA.

It is so incredibly common in this day and age for everyone to try to push their problems onto someone else and find someone to blame, but really there is no one to blame but themselves.

[Rufus]

Professionalism is not:

• Acting condescending to a customer.
• Sarcasm.
• Responding to threads in an aggressive (or passive aggresive) tone.
• Displaying your teen angst.
• Lacking in courtesy or respect.

Just thought I'd point that out, because it is so incredibly common in this day and age for everyone to try to push their problems onto someone else and find someone to blame, but really there is no one to blame but themselves.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Professionalism is not:

• Acting condescending to a customer.
• Sarcasm.
• Responding to threads in an aggressive (or passive aggresive) tone.
• Displaying your teen angst.
• Lacking in courtesy or respect.

Just thought I'd point that out, because it is so incredibly common in this day and age for everyone to try to push their problems onto someone else and find someone to blame, but really there is no one to blame but themselves.

Neat. Let me get my pen and paper out so I can take notes from your infinite wisdom; please, go on.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

You are asking support staff to provide developers with development-related help. Brilliant.

We have no control over the content being pushed into Graal, unless you're talking about Hosted and Classic servers being approved, but that's not the PWAs fault if they are not being produced, that's yours.

You've perpetually shown that you do not understand the role of the PWA, so let me inform you.

I feel like I shouldn't have to take the time to write this to someone, but I will take special time since you don't seem to understand.

The PWA does:

• Check servers for illegal, copyrighted, inappropriate content.
• Inspect servers when the server developers feel that they are ready to go Hosted/Classic.
• Investigate and settle disputes about abusive and corrupt behavior.
• Read and reply to all support tickets submitted to the playerworlds section (handling anywhere from harassment to playerworld issues).
• Act as a safety net for when servers have been taken over or economies are being ruined by staff.
• Help manage and monitor the community of Graal, and help build a bridge between players and upper management (Stefan, unixmad, etc). We can be your voice.

The PWA does not, nor should they have to:

• Develop content for your server.
• Fix your scripting mistakes -- get a NAT.
• Teach you how to level.
• Help you learn how to do anything development related.
• Get involved with your projects.

We are starting a separate team, it's called the Global Development Team, which may help you out since you seem to advocate having people doing all your work for you instead of learning how to do it yourself. However, if someone truly feels the need to remain ignorant and continue to pay for a server, that's perfectly fine, but they will not receive any help from the team. You must put forth effort to learn how to develop things on your own as well. If you don't learn how to develop, that is not my problem and it's not the PWAs problem. In fact, it's no ones problem except your own.

You seem to be trying to blame things on the PWA when it truly has absolutely nothing to do with what you're complaining about, which is just a lack of available developers to help you with your project. Again, this is not the PWAs fault, in fact, you are more at fault for it than the PWA.

It is so incredibly common in this day and age for everyone to try to push their problems onto someone else and find someone to blame, but really there is no one to blame but themselves.

did i not constantly state that it should be the PWA or some other global group. there are only two global groups that are active and matter anymore: PWA and GDT. if you are looking for global support, who else am i going to point to as an example of a job they could be doing?

i'm not blaming the PWA on anything anyways. i'm saying you could come on and help servers finish their content, however small the content may be. for example, if you are a prominent LAT, you could log on and fix the tile errors you find in a level as you check the servers progress (which i realize is something you don't do, but i supposed you would have too if you commited yourself to this type of job) or as a scripter you could look over player-made scripts and simplify or fix broken scripts. i'm not saying you should log on and create the entire server for people - i don't see how you take that to the extreme, or that you would be "babysitting" new developers by doing so

as for your remarks on my abilities as a developer

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Hiro

as for your remarks on my abilities as a developer

When I said "you" I meant anyone in general, not specifically you. Sorry I made it unclear.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

When I said "you" I meant anyone in general, not specifically you. Sorry I made it unclear.

sorry for my animosity then, but i have said many times that i'm not a developer, hence the assumption (8

i agree that people should make their own things - but helping them along, since development isn't free, would be very nice and would encourage people to spar more. like the purpose of the testbed server except that it's every UC server and not public

[SwimChao]

Originally Posted by Hiro

sorry for my animosity then, but i have said many times that i'm not a developer, hence the assumption (8

i agree that people should make their own things - but helping them along, since development isn't free, would be very nice and would encourage people to spar more. like the purpose of the testbed server except that it's every UC server and not public

On a side note, not many people who actually need help ask for it. I mean, of course people who want to sit back and watch the work unfold in front of them ask quite often, but it's a rare instance for a person in the position to need help to finish their content asks for it.

I guess it's sort of a develop(er/ment) ego. I know I can be that way sometimes.

[DesolateRestriction]

Well if Graal is a developer's platform, then I think it's about time Stefan worked on some graphical and sound making programs. ( or include some basic programs in developer tools, and now that I think about it... would it be out of the question for the owners of said programs to want to invest in advertising their products ion Graal? IE, list their trial products in Graal's development install packages. That might be a possible source of income when/if the community grows).

I can see it now, "Graal Soundshop - Now you can make you very own annoying graal sounds too!"

In all seriousness, this discussion is rapidly heading towards the ****ter; we've been pointing fingers for years and look where it's got us.