Developing should be free for servers that are staff-only

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Graal hasn't been a game in and of itself since Playerworlds came out, buddy-o. When it became the responsibility of playerworld developers to make games, Graal became a development platform. How successful Graal is depends wholly on how successful each playerworld is, which further depends on the developers that work for it. Graal's success, for the most part, does not rely on frequent updates from Stefan. When developers get it in their mind that they cannot develop without frequent client updates, or frequent engine updates, then that's when quality of gameplay goes down, including the playercount. It has to be like this, because the "game" is actually each "playerworld", not the client itself. This is how it's been for a little less than a decade. It's nothing new.

If anything, it's those developers' faults that the playercount isn't increasing, coupled with the increased costs of upgrading an account. But if the content was worth paying for, then people would pay for it. Since developers are the content makers, as they should be on a development platform, it's their fault if people aren't upgrading their account. If upping the price means upping the quality of content, then so be it; developers need to get their asses in gear and start doing something new and worth paying for. That's not to say that prices aren't outrageous. But arguing about prices isn't going to change them, so the focus needs to shift on making the content worth paying for.

To do that, Stefan does need to do some things. I have faith that he's doing them. The problem for most developers is that he's not releasing those things fast enough.

I hope you're starting to understand, though, that developers are the ones who give content to the players, not GraalOnline. GraalOnline provides the client, developers provide the game. It's that simple. Whatever server it that you play, is the server you need to start demanding updates from. If you start demanding tons of content from GraalOnline, then developers are going to get short-changed, and the outcome is going to be a situation worse than what it was before you demanded the content.

and once again, you only perceive the problem from a developer's point of view, and it's obvious to me that you have never been an actual player of graal, despite what you might retaliate and defend otherwise. you act as if CJ has never created content before, and that the game has never focused on the player before, and that just isn't true. you also act like the players are satisfied with what's out there, or that it is somehow the fault of the developers that there is no leadership or direction. i don't think you realize the extent of stefan's influence on the game, both to the players and to developers

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by Hiro

and once again, you only perceive the problem from a developer's point of view, and it's obvious to me that you have never been an actual player of graal, despite what you might retaliate and defend otherwise. you act as if CJ has never created content before, and that the game has never focused on the player before, and that just isn't true. you also act like the players are satisfied with what's out there, or that it is somehow the fault of the developers that there is no leadership or direction. i don't think you realize the extent of stefan's influence on the game, both to the players and to developers

Haven't seen any of this influence for a few years now, except for the people who go stupid/annoying when he logs on RC.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Hiro

and once again, you only perceive the problem from a developer's point of view

I am a developer, after all.

Originally Posted by Hiro

and it's obvious to me that you have never been an actual player of graal, despite what you might retaliate and defend otherwise.

Years 1-3 of playing.

Originally Posted by Hiro

you act as if CJ has never created content before, and that the game has never focused on the player before, and that just isn't true.

Then playerworlds came out.

Originally Posted by Hiro

you also act like the players are satisfied with what's out there

It's pretty evident that some aren't.

Originally Posted by Hiro

or that it is somehow the fault of the developers that there is no leadership or direction. i don't think you realize the extent of stefan's influence on the game, both to the players and to developers

Exactly what kind of leadership and direction do you want? All you people ever post are lofty requests, that can never be fulfilled because they're so vague and inaccessible. Are you wanting Stefan to drop everything and create a playerworld for you? What?

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Exactly what kind of leadership and direction do you want? All you people ever post are lofty requests, that can never be fulfilled because they're so vague and inaccessible. Are you wanting Stefan to drop everything and create a playerworld for you? What?

currently i'm waiting for him to at least address the problem publicly, or to post something hinting as to what CJ is even doing right now

honestly, i want any leadership and direction since we don't have any at all. it doesn't even have to be stefan, it could be any developer who's wise enough to pull it off, whatever "it" is. currently, i don't see anyone stepping forward to make a difference, nor do i see anyone from CJ stepping up to address the problem. "you people" who constantly defend the position that graal is in seem to think that graal will just magically pull itself out of the rut by some divine developing community power, while the players (who are pretty much powerless since they can't develop) complain that nothing is being done, or opt for humble indifference towards graal

the sad thing is i already tried making a thread to promote a developer's circle of individuals who could brain storm a project to help revive graal, with the premise being that we were on our own and that it is our problem to solve. no one stepped forward, no one thought it would work, the thread ended up being locked because of the different topics it brought up. now when i try to advocate that CJ should take the problem and mold it into a solution, you tell me that it isn't their responsibility nor has it ever been - well then when are you of the developing community going to do something about it? you're still paying to develop but you aren't trying to save the game at all?

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by Hiro

the sad thing is i already tried making a thread to promote a developer's circle of individuals who could brain storm a project to help revive graal

A lot of developers have their own projects (I am working on Zodiac V2), we don't need someone who played Classic/G2K1/whatever server 5-8 years ago to stop what we're doing and create some server that will have the same effect comparable to the release of old servers in the past.

Do I think my project is going to revive Graal? Frankly I don't care, I only care about my own server, and attempting to please whoever may play it. I have to assume the playercount will be around for when I want to release but it's not something that you can expect to get done in a month.

Now.. Our current tools work, however they're extremely outdated but they can be improved in Graal v6 when developing tools will run out of Graal itself, allowing for scripted improvements, and personalization (I hope).

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

A lot of developers have their own projects (I am working on Zodiac V2), we don't need someone who played Classic/G2K1/whatever server 5-8 years ago to stop what we're doing and create some server that will have the same effect comparable to the release of old servers in the past.

I'm sure Hiro only wanted to gather developers interested in that genre of a playerworld, so need to slander someone.

I'm also sure that Hiro, as well as myself, is speaking out that the content produced now isn't fulfilling enough to suffice good gameplay, and if the servers' management cant help that, then CJ should at least come in with a few proposals for raising the activity. I'm always supportive of playerworlds, but lately they are lacking and I think they need to head something up. Even the premium servers are lacking. Graal itself now cannot stand unless the management of the game decides to make a few changes

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

A lot of developers have their own projects (I am working on Zodiac V2), we don't need someone who played Classic/G2K1/whatever server 5-8 years ago to stop what we're doing and create some server that will have the same effect comparable to the release of old servers in the past.

Do I think my project is going to revive Graal? Frankly I don't care, I only care about my own server, and attempting to please whoever may play it. I have to assume the playercount will be around for when I want to release but it's not something that you can expect to get done in a month.

Now.. Our current tools work, however they're extremely outdated but they can be improved in Graal v6 when developing tools will run out of Graal itself, allowing for scripted improvements, and personalization (I hope).

i don't think i ever mentioned stopping your projects to make a different one, or to somehow mold your project into one that will revive graal. that's your own prerogative, and if you don't care enough to make it into such a project then that's just another server to cross off my list of hopes. i don't see why you wouldn't want a server with comparable results to the ones created by CJ, but maybe that's just me

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

I took over Maloria since I want to create something unique and lasting for Graal, that will have high enough quality to be able to be advertised on the Internet. To achieve something like that doesn't take one night, and I'm personally not one to release half-assed content or be satisfied with decent work when I know something better can be done.

Player complain when they don't see updates? Of course they do, but just because they don't see them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

All you need to have is faith in the project you're working on, and in the people working with you. Sadly a lot of projects never see their finished result, due to the majority of developers not being able to stick with things for more then a week.

i'm glad you don't want to release half-assed content, that's awesome and i support that fully. but why does that mean that no information, no updates on the project itself could be given? why must players be in the dark about a server like maloria, or client updates from stefan? it's not that hard to post a thread about a project, and update that thread every time there's enough of a cause to do so. having faith in graal projects is like having faith in a god, where you hope that it's going to be real and it's a miracle when some evidence of it appears, but then when it never comes and promise of new gods are brought to light who will bring us wonderful things, you end up not believing at all

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Hiro

but why does that mean that no information, no updates on the project itself could be given?

OGCC Thread (only major updates, and quite outdated by now): http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=82848
Major updates/hirings: http://www.maloria.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9
Staff devlogs: http://www.maloria.com/forumdisplay.php?f=53


There are plenty of information, and people who would be interested in finding out about them can do so quite easily.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by FaLLChiLD

Because it's the developers job to pay for Graal and make it, as CJ profits, amirite?

Actually, yes. That's the basic business model for development platforms, turn-key operations, etc.

Originally Posted by Hiro

i don't think i ever mentioned stopping your projects to make a different one, or to somehow mold your project into one that will revive graal. that's your own prerogative, and if you don't care enough to make it into such a project then that's just another server to cross off my list of hopes. i don't see why you wouldn't want a server with comparable results to the ones created by CJ, but maybe that's just me

You didn't mention having people stop your projects, but you did mention pooling developers together to create some G2k1 revival. That would mean developers giving up their projects.

Look, this may come as news, but I honestly doubt that these old servers would be popular if revived. Nostalgia is best as nostalgia.

What I've been trying to say this entire time is that you need to take your concerns about content to playerworld staff. There's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, demanding that Stefan make an amazing server to make up for (what you seem to think are) mediocre servers. Client updates are nice, but you don't play because you like the client updates. You play because you like the servers.

[salesman]

Sooo....
my thread was hijacked =(
Free-developing on servers that are staff-only? Possibly some kind of package where you purchase developer slots?? Honestly, I think it would improve Graal tremendously.

As some of you have said, it is the developers job to make the game, not CJ...however, very few developers are willing to upgrade anymore, and I'm willing to bet most of Graal's money is coming in from people who PLAY the game, not people who develop.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Hiro

currently, i don't see anyone stepping forward to make a difference, nor do i see anyone from CJ stepping up to address the problem. "you people" who constantly defend the position that graal is in seem to think that graal will just magically pull itself out of the rut by some divine developing community power, while the players (who are pretty much powerless since they can't develop) complain that nothing is being done, or opt for humble indifference towards graal

I took over Maloria since I want to create something unique and lasting for Graal, that will have high enough quality to be able to be advertised on the Internet. To achieve something like that doesn't take one night, and I'm personally not one to release half-assed content or be satisfied with decent work when I know something better can be done.

Player complain when they don't see updates? Of course they do, but just because they don't see them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

All you need to have is faith in the project you're working on, and in the people working with you. Sadly a lot of projects never see their finished result, due to the majority of developers not being able to stick with things for more then a week.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

Player complain when they don't see updates? Of course they do, but just because they don't see them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Damn those players who are too stupid to be having fun when you have put so much effort into your system scripts! It is all their fault that Graal is going downhill~