The Quality Of Staff

[Rufus]

I'm just interested to know why there is an increasing number of developers on the server that are nowhere near the level needed to make the server the standard that people are expecting it to be. I am aware that there is a thin dev pool, but you haven't even tried. With Classic's competitors having several advantages over it, I really can't see where you're going with this.

Classic is a server that had content unique to itself in 2000, but now most of what we had is offered elsewhere. If you're planning on re-releasing this said content with these staff, it is not going to better any of the competitors at all. Servers such as Delteria which have had an overhaul are going to kick our ass when they're released, possibly to the point where Classic has no chance in hell, and you believe that we honestly have time to sit and play dev school to everyone who opens the Level Editor or MS Paint? Maybe you're just grateful that you're getting staff, but this is a server revival and a server progression; quantity means **** without quality.

[DarkCloud_PK]

its not like champ devs arrive at my doorstop here. i see potential and concern for classic as a key hiring point. when a key dev comes along i usually pick them in a second

[Rufus]

No, because this is getting ridiculous now. The latest hiring has just started making levels and isn't even up to general standards yet. Sadly he's not the only one, and with practically an entire team of people who haven't got appropriate experience and haven't had any standards laid out in front of them, who do you think are they going to pick it up from?

[WanDaMan]

People will work for the server if they're interested in the content of the server; release something to get their attention, the levels don't have to be great to release the content as they can be amended when help arrives.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

People will work for the server if they're interested in the content of the server; release something to get their attention, the levels don't have to be great to release the content as they can be amended when help arrives.

Assigning LATs who have only just started creating levels to remaking entire towns is not going to turn out well and if content like this turns out even worse than what it currently is, what do you think that is going to do to the interest of the server?

[WanDaMan]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Assigning LATs who have only just started creating levels to remaking entire towns is not going to turn out well and if content like this turns out even worse than what it currently is, what do you think that is going to do to the interest of the server?

The development team need to get new and exisiting customers back by getting their interest in something new and different. You don't need a fantastic LAT to develop levels for this suggestion as the levels they do create could always be updated in the future. Re-modeling a town won't get much publicity, I'd be concerned about the future of Classic if they're planning on another re-vamp or modifications to the fundamentals of the server.

[BlackSolider]

Rufus, if only 1 person applies for the job, and you need help badly, are you going to hire that person whether or not they are that good?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

The development team need to get new and exisiting customers back by getting their interest in something new and different. You don't need a fantastic LAT to develop levels for this suggestion as the levels they do create could always be updated in the future. Re-modeling a town won't get much publicity, I'd be concerned about the future of Classic if they're planning on another re-vamp or modifications to the fundamentals of the server.

I agree with you, but you're missing the main point of what actually does attract people to servers: aesthetics and gameplay. In this regard, remodeling a town provides a good backbone for further developments, such as better quests, better exploration, minigames, and other various purposes that can be implemented alongside it. I can understand why a lot of the level content should be remade such as Destiny, because it is crap and needs better planning, construction, and thought put behind it; Getting a LAT who has just started making levels to remake towns is dumb however. It's not just the levels staff that are new to the development circuit and Classic itself though.

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

Rufus, if only 1 person applies for the job, and you need help badly, are you going to hire that person whether or not they are that good?

Where are the hiring threads to indicate that help is needed? Where are the prospects of working on Classic being advertised?

[DarkCloud_PK]

There dont seem to be prospects for working other than to save your home server and do your part, no matter how small or large it may be.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

There dont seem to be prospects for working other than to save your home server and do your part, no matter how small or large it may be.

Working on a server that has a potential future as a top server again and looks like it is heading that way, perhaps?

[DarkCloud_PK]

All sounds good on paper, but developers outside of classic usually never turn out to stick around. Its the fickle thing about development, the moment the direction turns to that of a direction which that dev doesnt agree with, that dev has the skill to pack up and go elsewhere.

[MysticX2X]

Instead of complaining, you should work on Bomy Island.

Just a thought.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

All sounds good on paper, but developers outside of classic usually never turn out to stick around. Its the fickle thing about development, the moment the direction turns to that of a direction which that dev doesnt agree with, that dev has the skill to pack up and go elsewhere.

Developers seem to enjoy working for other servers, but does anyone think Classic has a real future at the moment? That is the problem. If you have a direction from the inception then developers would know what they were in for, rather than just making it up as you go along. You are not helping your 'catch22' problem by continuously hiring developers that are not good, because there is no counter balance, and if the content needs to be remade in the future then you are just wasting time.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Instead of complaining, you should work on Bomy Island.

Just a thought.

No.

[xnervNATx]

just wow

[MysticX2X]

Lmao at neg reputation comment.

[Terazel Tenjin]

Would it hurt more to keep "less talented" staff members around to develop their skills with practice, or not accept anyone of average quality into an elitist circle of development and keep waiting on miracle talents to drop out of the sky?

And if you never give people the chance, how will they ever get better? Are developer talents solely based on initial aptitude?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Terazel Tenjin

Would it hurt more to keep "less talented" staff members around to develop their skills with practice, or not accept anyone of average quality into an elitist circle of development and keep waiting on miracle talents to drop out of the sky?

And if you never give people the chance, how will they ever get better? Are developer talents solely based on initial aptitude?

How would saturating a staff team of "less talented developers" allow them to flourish their skills? The standards aren't set, they need to be, and without people who know what they're doing it's not going to happen; Zodiac is a server that is a great example of this. It's not about accepting people from an elitist group, it's about having a balance between people who have actual experience and those that have potential. Developer talents are built up, but not on their own, and Classic doesn't have the time nor longevity left to open up as a dev school without teachers, especially while every other server is actually making decent progressions around us. How long do you think this server actually has left before it gets to the point where it's just not going to be possible?

[Terazel Tenjin]

Originally Posted by Rufus

How would saturating a staff team of "less talented developers" allow them to flourish their skills? The standards aren't set, they need to be, and without people who know what they're doing it's not going to happen; Zodiac is a server that is a great example of this. It's not about accepting people from an elitist group, it's about having a balance between people who have actual experience and those that have potential. Developer talents are built up, and Classic doesn't have the time nor longevity left to open up as a dev school without teachers, especially while every other server is actually making decent progressions around us. How long do you think this server actually has left before it gets to the point where it's just not going to be possible?

Doesn't it go back to what pool of talents there are to be utilized being a major milestone? While I agree that a standard needs to be set, it seems like self-amputation to shun help from willing any developers simply because they aren't up to par. Maybe repurpose them for something else until they catch on? Or pair them up on projects with a more senior/better developer? I don't know how it works, that's why I'm asking the questions. But I would think Management should, well, manage this a little better rather than not hiring/firing willing help.

And since you mentioned the lifetime left on the server, I personally feel it has already expired. 2-3 years ago, there were enough players for a jumpstart, enough talents that were "up to standard" and even beyond it, and there were much more going for the server in regards to potential than there is currently to work with. The end result is still the same; all the promises and campaign fireworks that last several months and then back into obscurity. Logic would dictate that either development and management of Classic are the roadblocks that never change, or that the server itself is beyond repair and revival.

While I don't disagree with you about the significant of standards, I think for the server it goes back to the saying of, "Beggars can't be choosers."

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Terazel Tenjin

Doesn't it go back to what pool of talents there are to be utilized being a major milestone? While I agree that a standard needs to be set, it seems like self-amputation to shun help from willing any developers simply because they aren't up to par. Maybe repurpose them for something else until they catch on? Or pair them up on projects with a more senior/better developer? I don't know how it works, that's why I'm asking the questions. But I would think Management should, well, manage this a little better rather than not hiring/firing willing help.

I am not against taking on developers who are new or unknown and helping them build on their skills. I've worked with a scripter in the past who I didn't know at the time and he was the best person I have ever worked with. I have also tried to help Midi with her pixel art as she is relatively new to it, but has experience with other art areas so has potential there. When you're only taking on these new developers however and allowing them to just make their own way then there's an issue, especially since there's no one really around to sit down with these people and show them a few examples, give them a few hints, and really push them in the right direction, whatever that may be. The developer pool is weak, but there are some developers out there that could and would work on Classic, but no one wants to volunteer onto a development team where they know they're going to be working on content as an individual and doubling up as a coach.

Originally Posted by Terazel Tenjin

And since you mentioned the lifetime left on the server, I personally feel it has already expired. 2-3 years ago, there were enough players for a jumpstart, enough talents that were "up to standard" and even beyond it, and there were much more going for the server in regards to potential than there is currently to work with. The end result is still the same; all the promises and campaign fireworks that last several months and then back into obscurity. Logic would dictate that either development and management of Classic are the roadblocks that never change, or that the server itself is beyond repair and revival.

Well, inevitably you might be right with the environment that it is in. There's still new players logging on now and again though, people do check it out, and with that I still have hope for a future.

Originally Posted by Terazel Tenjin

While I don't disagree with you about the significant of standards, I think for the server it goes back to the saying of, "Beggars can't be choosers."

I would agree with you if there had been any effort put into attracting staff, rather than sitting and waiting for them to come along. That's a pretty ironic statement for me to make as I'm doing the same for Bomy Island, but I think there's more of a market for Classic developers as it has a good backbone and larger following (albeit not that much) to work with.

[Jimbo33]

Originally Posted by Rufus

The developer pool is weak, but there are some developers out there that could and would work on Classic, but no one wants to volunteer onto a development team where they know they're going to be working on content as an individual and doubling up as a coach.

I have to agree with Rufus on that one.

[Kamaeru]

I feel like you guys are talking crap.

stfu and do something yourself if you want to learn how to help classic

classic's content has always relied on the entire playerbase. staff are no lacking. players are currently lacking. players have to step up.

lol

furthermore, i don't see any reason why classic can't still be the main hub server with all the players. it may take a while to complete classic, but it won't take long to make it a better game than UN or Era, so...

Don't give me that delteria ****. I've seen it. I'm not so impressed anyway...

The level style in that castley town is lame and actually allows for less possibilities. It is one step backwards in level functionality from Graal's standard level style and I can prove this with relative ease.

[k_killar]

I applied as a Dev staff, and i sent in my work and they said it was excellent, but they looked at my ban history and automatically said no.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Kamaeru

I feel like you guys are talking crap.

stfu and do something yourself if you want to learn how to help classic

classic's content has always relied on the entire playerbase. staff are no lacking. players are currently lacking. players have to step up.

lol

furthermore, i don't see any reason why classic can't still be the main hub server with all the players. it may take a while to complete classic, but it won't take long to make it a better game than UN or Era, so...

Don't give me that delteria ****. I've seen it. I'm not so impressed anyway...

The level style in that castley town is lame and actually allows for less possibilities. It is one step backwards in level functionality from Graal's standard level style and I can prove this with relative ease.

The way Graal works has changed a lot over the years. It used to be very easy to submit content...from head graphics, to player houses, to even whole islands and/or quests. However, Graal is a lot more complex. First off, Classic uses a custom system. How can we create quests when we don't even know how HD works or how to interact with the custom systems? We can't. Even something as simple as a switch is something we just can't do without help from the Staff who knows the systems.

Graal has went from mainly a player-developed system, to a staff-developed system. Not to mention, if the players aren't staff, it's probably because they can't develop, therefor anything they would make probably would suck ass and not be usable. Also, don't forget that standards back then were really. really low, and a lot of player-submitted stuff was accepted that looked like ****. Hence, players doing more would actually lower the standard, rather than raising it.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Even something as simple as a switch is something we just can't do without help from the Staff who knows the systems.

No it's not.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

No it's not.

lol... so I can make an NPC work by using function onWa****()? I don't think so, since the server uses custom HD. Therefor, with no documentation... it would be impossible for me to guess how it works. At least, that's what people like Thor and such make it out to be.

[MysticX2X]

Oh, I must of misunderstood what you meant by switch if it involves onWa****()

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Oh, I must of misunderstood what you meant by switch if it involves onWa****()

Aye. GS1 was very accessible because of its documentation and the fact many example scripts were made public(all of Classic used to be packed with Graal itself). Along with that and commands.rtf, it was very easy to pick up and start your own quests. GS2 is a bit more complicated, along with the NPC-server and clientside/serverside communication, it's just not as easy. Introduce custom systems with absolutely no public documentation and it makes it impossible for players to really make anything outside of simple things.

Even when I worked on Classic, I couldn't use even simple scripts(such as my hammer) because of the way custom systems inferred with otherwise simple things. For example, last time I talked to Thor about the HD, it was a DBNPC that had to be called to the location of the players swing... I don't know if it still works like that, but ya that gives you an idea of how accessible the custom stuff can be for a player who can hardly script a door.