Log mass messages

[cbk1994]

Please add a server option to log mass messages. It would be extremely useful on servers like Era where we cannot effectively monitor masses and need to check history constantly (and often cannot since people like to exclude admins from mass messages that might be liable to get them in trouble). Logs could be stored in something like logs/masses/cb/cbk1994.txt.

[Scary_Sock]

This isen't such a bad idea. I like the idea of keepings logs of each player's mass message kept away. It would help catch people who just USD/Scam/Advertise in their mass message when Staff are busy with something else to read mass messages.

[Darlene159]

Good idea.

[salesman]

Would a message sent to only two or so players be considered a "mass message"? If so, the logs could be pretty deceiving.

[DustyPorViva]

Could log how many players it was sent to.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by salesman

Would a message sent to only two or so players be considered a "mass message"? If so, the logs could be pretty deceiving.

It'd be hard to determine if something is a real mass message or just a "to friends" one, but I think that it'd be worth it anyway. No one (as far as I know) masses to like three people, anyway.

[salesman]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

It'd be hard to determine if something is a real mass message or just a "to friends" one, but I think that it'd be worth it anyway. No one (as far as I know) masses to like three people, anyway.

I do, but, like Dusty said, it might be nice to include how many players received the message.

[Scary_Sock]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

It'd be hard to determine if something is a real mass message or just a "to friends" one, but I think that it'd be worth it anyway. No one (as far as I know) masses to like three people, anyway.

But it is possible for that too happen, and it is possible for a bad outcome from that mass message to the certain group.

Every Mass Message should be logged or every mass message sent to an RC should be logged.

[salesman]

Don't you think these files would fill up quite a bit? You're probably not going to check them often enough to rename them as they get too big. (I know my RC crashes when I try to open files that are huge)

e: actually probably not, but there's some people who mass wayyyyy too much.

[MysticX2X]

Wouldn't this be ridiculously huge even for one day?

Also, this seems like a negative for player privacy.

[Scary_Sock]

Mass messages that should be logged if they include keywords also wouldn't be such a bad idea. It sums it down to just logging it if it includes keywords instead of every single mass message.

If a keyword was used, like "Scam" or "USD", the message would be logged. Otherwise, the mass message would not need to be logged.

[cbk1994]

We already log mass messages on Era, in separate files per players, and I'm yet to see one get anywhere near a large file size. The reason I'm requesting hard-coded logging is because it is possible for players to evade the scripted stuff.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Also, this seems like a negative for player privacy.

Player privacy? They're massing it out to the entire server. I'd agree if we were talking about just player PMs, but a public mass is not private.

EDIT: There is no benefit to just logging certain masses from what I can see; file size is not an issue.

[Scary_Sock]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

There is no benefit to just logging certain masses from what I can see; file size is not an issue.

Although File Size is not an issue, logging pointless mass messages is. It wastes space that can be used. Sure, it isen't an issue NOW, but it still wastes space and it is pointless. Like I said, mass messages with inserted keywords from High Administrators should be logged.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Scary_Sock

Although File Size is not an issue, logging pointless mass messages is. It wastes space that can be used. Sure, it isen't an issue NOW, but it still wastes space and it is pointless. Like I said, mass messages with inserted keywords from High Administrators should be logged.

And what about when you're trying to find a mass message that they avoided by doing something like U$D or U.SD? What about when someone is harassing someone else?

[Mark Sir Link]

It's not a terrible idea as long as the logs are only accessible by a trusted few (probably not even playerworld staff, PWA or higher).

Only ever access logs if there's an actual complaint. Don't read them at your leisure.

And don't say it's impossible since I'm aware of a MMORPG that supposedly has 10 million + players and logs everything a player says whether in private or public for 6+ months.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

It's not a terrible idea as long as the logs are only accessible by a trusted few (probably not even playerworld staff, PWA or higher).

Logs can be read by GPs and many other staff, actually. Keep in mind these are only mass PM logs, not PM logs.

Only ever access logs if there's an actual complaint. Don't read them at your leisure.

This much is obvious, but is just a responsibility of the staff team. No harm would be done by them reading mass messages, anyway.

[Twinny]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

And don't say it's impossible since I'm aware of a MMORPG that supposedly has 10 million + players and logs everything a player says whether in private or public for 6+ months.

Yes, and their infrastructure is incredible. Graal Servers, on the other hand, are hosted in a Linux Vserver which is hosted on a server hosting multiple vservers..... resources are much more limited.

[DustyPorViva]

I don't understand this whole privacy and "must be accessed only by trusted admins"... they're mass PMs. All privacy went out the window when you decided to highlight all the players on the server and send a message to them.

I don't see size being that much of an issue. I'm sure Stefan could manage to have it clip off older parts of the log after a certain size(10mb?). Add that with staff keeping it organized just like RC logs and such, and I don't see the problem.

Not to mention size would only be a problem on the higher playercount servers. Other servers probably don't even get that much action in terms of masses to even worry about it.

[Liberated]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Wouldn't this be ridiculously huge even for one day?

Also, this seems like a negative for player privacy.

since when are masses private?

[Scary_Sock]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

And what about when you're trying to find a mass message that they avoided by doing something like U$D or U.SD? What about when someone is harassing someone else?

Then we put those as keywords. Yes, every single word possible for the words "USD". The fact that other games do this, like RuneScape or Habbo Hotel. Also, If they find a way to actually bypass the keyword system, that does not mean a player can't report that mass message. Yuo guys should implant the system secretly.

[fowlplay4]

IMO, you gave up your privacy when you used Graal as a medium of passing messages to each other.

Hope to see it implemented, perhaps only logging the mass on the specified keywords?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

IMO, you gave up your privacy when you used Graal as a medium of passing messages to each other.

I kind of agree here. If you really want privacy you should use an instant messenger or something... and even then you might not have the privacy you imagine because of hacking and such. But I play games where admins can read just about every sort of communication, from local to private, and even players have skills that can listen in on private messages. You know what? No one complains because it's just a matter of accepting the fact that it's not a private medium. And yes, their staff is run by volunteers, that were once players(however they are anonymous, and go through very long training sequence, and give up their actual player character).

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Scary_Sock

Then we put those as keywords. Yes, every single word possible for the words "USD". The fact that other games do this, like RuneScape or Habbo Hotel. Also, If they find a way to actually bypass the keyword system, that does not mean a player can't report that mass message. Yuo guys should implant the system secretly.

And what about harassment? There is absolutely no benefit to only logging certain masses. There will always be the few mass messages that are missed and cause trouble. I bet you anything other games like RuneScape or Habbo Hotel log every single message you send or thing you say.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Player privacy? They're massing it out to the entire server. I'd agree if we were talking about just player PMs, but a public mass is not private.

EDIT: There is no benefit to just logging certain masses from what I can see; file size is not an issue.

Well I know there will be certain gp's who will jail you after looking through the logs to see you used a couple cuss words 12 hours before.

Maybe I meant that there will be a 24/7 watch on mass messages now which seems really inappropriate from a players standpoint.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Well I know there will be certain gp's who will jail you after looking through the logs to see you used a couple cuss words 12 hours before.

Maybe I meant that there will be a 24/7 watch on mass messages now which seems really inappropriate from a players standpoint.

If policd are jailing for a swear word said 12 hours ago, then that is a problem with the staff team, not this system. Right now, players can mass out whatever they want and uncheck all admins, which makes it very, very difficult for us to confirm whether someone said something.

Graal's communication is not private. No servers log PMs, but there is no guarantee that Stefan doesn't log them somewhere. Mass PMs are already logged on Era, but in a way that is imperfect. In addition to that, we have a system that automatically checks for certain keywords in masses. The chat of certain players is logged, and we monitor the chat of all players for certain keywords.

Masses are absolutely not private. I disagree with logging PMs and even chat because I believe it's an invasion of privacy, but I don't see how people can argue that masses are private. They just aren't.

[Crono]

Big brother is watching.

The only people supporting it and how it should work are not even players. It's pretty pathetic how low the quality of GP's has gone, to the point where everything has to be automated. It's completely killed the fun of the game, from ingame censors to GP's on power trips for the most minor things on UN.

Logs of any kind should only be accessable by a select few.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

If policd are jailing for a swear word said 12 hours ago, then that is a problem with the staff team, not this system. Right now, players can mass out whatever they want and uncheck all admins, which makes it very, very difficult for us to confirm whether someone said something.

If that's the case, then I could imagine that mass messages can be made where they will send to an rc no matter what (granted that the rc has mass messages enabled). Again, it would be ridiculously huge to log pm's 24/7, unless you want to manually wipe it every day..

Masses are absolutely not private. I disagree with logging PMs and even chat because I believe it's an invasion of privacy, but I don't see how people can argue that masses are private. They just aren't.

Yes, I realize that. I just do not like the idea of being watched over 24/7 since GP's these days will jail you whether the report is unwarranted or not. (Sup UN).

[Scary_Sock]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

If policd are jailing for a swear word said 12 hours ago, then that is a problem with the staff team, not this system. Right now, players can mass out whatever they want and uncheck all admins, which makes it very, very difficult for us to confirm whether someone said something.

Graal's communication is not private. No servers log PMs, but there is no guarantee that Stefan doesn't log them somewhere. Mass PMs are already logged on Era, but in a way that is imperfect. In addition to that, we have a system that automatically checks for certain keywords in masses. The chat of certain players is logged, and we monitor the chat of all players for certain keywords.

Masses are absolutely not private. I disagree with logging PMs and even chat because I believe it's an invasion of privacy, but I don't see how people can argue that masses are private. They just aren't.

Thats were GP's come in to take action against that. Remember, where not only relying on this system, but we rely on GP's to handle the other issues that may not be logged. Players can also report harmful mass-messages, and we can also put a couple of "Curse" words as keywords.

[Bell]

Classic for years has had mass message logs. They were accessible to the admins and GP's only. It really wasn't a big deal and was only used as a tool to help in policing the server. Obviously if someone wants to mass something crude, they are going to deselect any GP's online so blaming them for not paying attention is really not always the case. It gave a GP the ability to go back and check logs if someone was reported doing something they shouldn't.

Later on foul language logs were added since Classic has been against filters also from the beginning of time. Those were also only accessible to the GP's and Admins. Usually only the worst of the worst were ever jailed for something found in hindsight but a warning was issued to clean it up or there would be consequences first.

The only reason file size is really an issue is due to how long it takes to download the file to read it. Personally I don't think its a huge deal to rename it every so often to keep it to a reasonable size. I would love to see a auto logging as with rc logs or npc logs. Its kind of annoying to have someone accused of sending bad masses only to find out there is no way to confirm they were ever sent.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Crono

The only people supporting it and how it should work are not even players. It's pretty pathetic how low the quality of GP's has gone, to the point where everything has to be automated.

We're not asking for automation, simply logs. If player xyz claims that player abc is harassing him, how can we check that?

It's completely killed the fun of the game, from ingame censors to GP's on power trips for the most minor things on UN.

If the ability not to say **** all you want is killing the game for you, then something is seriously ****ed up.

Logs of any kind should only be accessable by a select few.

Yes, like the police whose job it is to reverse scams, monitor trades, and watch for rule-breakers and harassers.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

If that's the case, then I could imagine that mass messages can be made where they will send to an rc no matter what (granted that the rc has mass messages enabled). Again, it would be ridiculously huge to log pm's 24/7, unless you want to manually wipe it every day..

Where are you pulling this statistic from? I already said that we already log masses on Era, and that it is absolutely not ridiculously huge. I guarantee you our item log, which is stored in one place, grows FAR faster than any mass log would.

Yes, I realize that. I just do not like the idea of being watched over 24/7 since GP's these days will jail you whether the report is unwarranted or not. (Sup UN).

I can't control Unholy Nation. If they choose to look through masses for the wrong reasons, that's fine. You should try to get their rules changed, in that case.

Originally Posted by Scary_Sock

Thats were GP's come in to take action against that. Remember, where not only relying on this system, but we rely on GP's to handle the other issues that may not be logged. Players can also report harmful mass-messages, and we can also put a couple of "Curse" words as keywords.

How can GPs do anything when they don't receive the mass message, and players don't report them?

[Scary_Sock]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

How can GPs do anything when they don't receive the mass message, and players don't report them?

There is something bound to happen. If this is really the case, then logging every mass message would be necessary.

[Sinkler]

Logging Mass Messages would make life easier for many people. I agree, we need to log mass messages.

[Scary_Sock]

Originally Posted by Sinkler

Logging Mass Messages would make life easier for many people. I agree, we need to log mass messages.

Im pretty sure the system was put in already.

This is not Private Message History, so this should be aloud:

Squirt Mercy (Away) (Wed Aug 12 16:32:09 2009):
Mass message:
Just a reminder.

Big brother is always watching ^.^

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Scary_Sock

Im pretty sure the system was put in already.

It hasn't been. I added something on Era that works sometimes.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

We're not asking for automation, simply logs. If player xyz claims that player abc is harassing him, how can we check that?

If the ability not to say **** all you want is killing the game for you, then something is seriously ****ed up.

Yes, like the police whose job it is to reverse scams, monitor trades, and watch for rule-breakers and harassers.

I know, it's just that so many GP related things are being automated these days that it just feels like big brother is always watching. If a player claims to be harassed they will either send logs, screenshots, or any other form of proof like they have for the past, what, 10+ years?

The GP's on UN have cranked up on punishing any form of being naughty. From what I remember a week or two ago, even the slightest harassment would be punished. I like how you ignored "...to GP's on power trips for the most minor things on UN." and only focused on the ingame filter part just to try to get a quick stab at me. If I want to PM my friend **** that's my private business anyway. If it's a problem he or she would go to the GP's.

I wouldn't want GP's or any other low level staff reading through my logs, thank you very much.

[Bell]

Originally Posted by Crono

I know, it's just that so many GP related things are being automated these days that it just feels like big brother is always watching. If a player claims to be harassed they will either send logs, screenshots, or any other form of proof like they have for the past, what, 10+ years?

The GP's on UN have cranked up on punishing any form of being naughty. From what I remember a week or two ago, even the slightest harassment would be punished. I like how you ignored "...to GP's on power trips for the most minor things on UN." and only focused on the ingame filter part just to try to get a quick stab at me. If I want to PM my friend **** that's my private business anyway. If it's a problem he or she would go to the GP's.

I wouldn't want GP's or any other low level staff reading through my logs, thank you very much.

As a GP for years I have to agree to a certain point that many things are too automated but I also have to blame the change in attitude of the playerbase. While screenshots and histories are ok as 'additional evidence.' They should never be used as the sole evidence. They are too often altered or submitted to look like the accused is doing something wrong.

Almost every player now accused of wrongdoing demands to see proof. If you show them proof provided by their accuser they claim its faked and provide their own faked history to contradict it. If you show them a server provided history such as mass message histories its pretty much indisputeable.

However, I do not believe that any actions should be taken by Graal staff over things said in pm's. There is the ignore feature attached to the playerlist and it should always be the first step taken if you don't want to read what someone says to you privately. By blocking them it forces them to start harrassing you publicly which can then be seen by the staff and other players. Hence backing up your story.

This is a public online game. People are going to get into arguments with another person. People are going to get angry enough at times to go off on them in anger or frustration. Half the time they've made up and are buddies again before a GP can even resolve the issue. The rest are usually people that harass everyone and get a history of it and should be banned or jailed. We are not babysitters or protectors of your delicate psyche. If you can't learn to ignore someone and insist on responding back in kind then you shouldn't be complaining. Take responsibility for some of your own actions. Life isn't going to always defend you when things go downhill.

Random rant courtesy of Bell

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I don't understand this whole privacy and "must be accessed only by trusted admins"

I won't say that the PWA are immune to this but the typical staff member on a playerworld have some degree of bias and I can easily see staff members targeting certain players and reading their logs just to punish them.

While it may be justified, Graal would probably operate much better under a no-harm, no-foul policy where actions are only pursued against a player if someone reports it.

[Tigairius]

I personally believe all PMs should be logged, not only mass messages. I know this is a major invasion of privacy, which is something I don't generally advocate, but in this special case. If not local staff, then tenured global staff should be able to view the history between people in order to help solve disputes of claimed harassment.

Graal is the only online game I can think of that doesn't log messages sent through the game, and it is a security risk as a result. If you want to speak privately, use e-mail, AIM, MSN, Yahoo, MySpace, Facebook, Twitter, ICQ, etc. There are many ways to talk about private things that don't even need to be discussed on Graal, so use them.

Being able to view PMs can give us the following capabilities (and more):

1. Solve complaints about stolen passwords being spread around, we could search for the account name being discussed in PMs and find the person(s) sending out the password.
2. Handle cases of mass messages containing inappropriate things (pornography, passwords, illegal discussions), and have solid proof to back it up.
3. Find discussion of anti-graal (spreading out links to trainers, people admitting to the use of such, etc).
4. Find additional information on account scams, item scams, and allow us to make the communities a safer place with proper proof.
5. Solve problems with extreme cases of harassment.
6. Many more "special case" problems can also be solved.

I find myself commonly asking, "Do you have the PM history?", and "Do you have the RC history?" Someone should be able to look these things up to get solid evidence...

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I personally believe all PMs should be logged, not only mass messages. I know this is a major invasion of privacy, which is something I don't generally advocate, but in this special case. If not local staff, then tenured global staff should be able to view the history between people in order to help solve disputes of claimed harassment. Graal is the only online game I can think of that doesn't log messages sent through the game, and it is a security risk as a result.

Other games have professional and hired teams of staff to be trusted with these logs, Graal doesn't. Local staff should definitely not be given such rights whatsoever if such a system were to be implemented. As someone that actually plays the damn game I can assure you that harassment isn't really that big of a problem outside a select few who probably bring it onto themselves anyway.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

If you want to speak privately, use e-mail, AIM, MSN, Yahoo, etc. There are many ways to talk about private things that don't even need to be discussed on Graal, so use them.

If PM's weren't intended to be used privately why call them "private messages"? There's probably trash people shouldn't be talking about through e-mail, AIM, MSN, Yahoo, etc but hey apparently thats ok because it's not Graal right? One of the only points going for Graal is that it can be used as a chatroom for people who are just really bored (or people who realize Graal has no real gameplay left LELELEL), don't try to kill that too.

[Frankie]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

How can GPs do anything when they don't receive the mass message, and players don't report them?

so what you're saying is that GPs would be randomly reading through mass message logs to try and find things they deem inappropriate? I understand going through the logs when trying to resolve an issue, but going through them at your own leisure to find people to punish is just pathetic.

Originally Posted by Crono

Other games have professional and hired teams of staff to be trusted with these logs, Graal doesn't. Local staff should definitely not be given such rights whatsoever if such a system were to be implemented. As someone that actually plays the damn game I can assure you that harassment isn't really that big of a problem outside a select few who probably bring it onto themselves anyway.



If PM's weren't intended to be used privately why call them "private messages"? There's probably trash people shouldn't be talking about through e-mail, AIM, MSN, Yahoo, etc but hey apparently thats ok because it's not Graal right? One of the only points going for Graal is that it can be used as a chatroom for people who are just really bored (or people who realize Graal has no real gameplay left LELELEL), don't try to kill that too.

I agree 100 percent with both of these statements. couldn't have said it any better.