Why I Won't Play Your Server

[Crono1508]

Custom hit detection.

[Crow]

Oh noes~

[Crono]

no man it's totally fine, all the non-sparrers say so

[ffcmike]

Well as far as I know it emulates default in every conceivable way, but if you don't want to play it because it's custom what can you do?

[fowlplay4]

I don't like to read that much and found that this type of questing isn't for me, grats on being on the playerworlds list again though.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

I don't like to read that much and found that this type of questing isn't for me, grats on being on the playerworlds list again though.

[Geno]

oh shyt superhybrid was just birthed

[WaDaFack]

Custom hit detection is terrible & there is absolutely nothing to do after finishing quests. I mean yeah, you can play events but like Ph8 mentioned on the UN forums, the events last almost 30minutes.

[ffcmike]

And still nobody makes any effort to provide a reasonable, potentially measurable explanation as to why they believe the hit detection is terrible.
For all I know it could be a combination of the placebo effect based on Classic's past terrible serverside HD, and the herd mentality.

So:

• Sword detection mechanism works by your client scanning other players for the sword animation.
• Sword hit box is 32 x 32 pixels, offset by the attackers direction in relation to their blocking body.
• Players blocking body is 32 x 32 pixels, and this is what must intersect with your opponents sword. Edge-on intersects are included.
• Each 5 frames of the sword invokes a hitbox check.
• The freeze time for slashing is 0.3 seconds, 0.25 seconds covering the whole sword gani.
• Recoil movement is 1 tile per frame, it lasts a total of 5 frames, starting from the frame you got hit (which can prevent you from visually seeing the intersect)
• Recoil movement sticks to wall, as opposed to sliding along it.
• Recoil blink lasts between 0.55 - 2 seconds. It can be lost by either slashing, or releasing a previously held arrow key.
• Swords are checked after losing blink, which means you can be combo'd.

As far as I know having spent a lot of time testing, this is how default works and what our new custom HD copies.
Am I missing something?

[Crono]

it's not placebo and it has nothing to do with classic's old hd

classic's current hd is different than other servers, to deny this is just ****ing ridiculous. it's obviously difficult to point out what exactly is wrong as a player, but the way im hitting people is simply different here than on other servers. that's it. i can't explain why.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Crono

it's not placebo and it has nothing to do with classic's old hd

classic's current hd is different than other servers, to deny this is just ****ing ridiculous. it's obviously difficult to point out what exactly is wrong as a player, but the way im hitting people is simply different here than on other servers. that's it. i can't explain why.

Problem is, nothing unexpected is happening. When someone complains about hitting someone else on their own screen without it damaging them, there's nothing unexpected about that, when someone complains about hitting someone else despite not seeing themself hit their opponent on their own screen, there's also nothing unexpected about that.
If hitting other players is different it could easily be down to something such as increased delay as a result of being on a different, possibly lower priority machine than UN or iClassic.

And there definitely is a placebo element to it, a lot of players still believe we have a serverside hit detection, which was scrapped completely.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Problem is, nothing unexpected is happening. When someone complains about hitting someone else on their own screen without it damaging them, there's nothing unexpected about that, when someone complains about hitting someone else despite not seeing themself hit their opponent on their own screen, there's also nothing unexpected about that.
If hitting other players is different it could easily be down to something such as increased delay as a result of being on a different, possibly lower priority machine than UN or iClassic.

And there definitely is a placebo element to it, a lot of players still believe we have a serverside hit detection, which was scrapped completely.

I gave you examples in the other thread and instead of actually wondering what I'm experiencing you're too busy trying to justify your system. Many veteran sparrers are telling you that it's not the same, how can you possibly try to deny that?

On Classic I don't have to slash on a player to hit them, I spam where they will be in 1-2 seconds and then see them get hit well after I'm done. I don't lag and neither do they. On UN or iClassic that window of "slashing ahead of time" is much shorter, meaning I can't pull the same kind of hits off there. Why is it happening? I don't know, but it is, and other sparrers can see it.

It has nothing to do with Classic's old serverside HD, I doubt many of the sparrers today really even experienced that HD.

Either way, I'll just keep sparring in Classic's tournies with UDP checked (TCP). It's like a free win for me.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Crono

Many veteran sparrers are telling you that it's not the same, how can you possibly try to deny that?

Many veteran sparrers do believe it's the same as the old system, and don't understand how the detection is even meant to work. I'm not denying their opinion, just saying it isn't very reliable and that I need a better explanation.

Originally Posted by Crono

It has nothing to do with Classic's old serverside HD, I doubt many of the sparrers today really even experienced that HD.

I've had plenty of sparrers who never experienced it themself, but have heard about it from others.

Originally Posted by Crono

On Classic I don't have to slash on a player to hit them, I spam where they will be in 1-2 seconds and then see them get hit well after I'm done.

Like I said, this is the expected behaviour. I've seen the part of the built-in code that handles sword detection, our sword detection is doing the exact same thing.

Originally Posted by Crono

I don't lag and neither do they. On UN or iClassic that window of "slashing ahead of time" is much shorter, meaning I can't pull the same kind of hits off there. Why is it happening? I don't know, but it is, and other sparrers can see it.

There is nothing on our side that can explain an increased delay. Not much data synchronisation is occurring, there is no excessive serverside code going on. Other than being on a different machine, the only explanation I can imagine is that a lower amount of Classic regulars are aware of significance of UDP.

[DustyPorViva]

Only way to settle this is to set up an event where you toggle between default and your custom HD while not actually allowing players to tell which they're using. Toggle them randomly and see if they can tell which HD they used to during the spar.

[scriptless]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Only way to settle this is to set up an event where you toggle between default and your custom HD while not actually allowing players to tell which they're using. Toggle them randomly and see if they can tell which HD they used to during the spar.

Agreed!

However, I did not play Classic in the past so I know nothing of it's past HD. I notice a very insignificant difference between the 2. However I think you can easily supply the best of both worlds by offering a 'default hd mode' that can be enabled when sparing? I would imagine something like that would be easily scripted and would please everyone then.

But maybe do what Dusty said to settle the argument once and for all. Personally I am a fan of offering which HD as an option for the sparrer's. Like having them both agree to it and both use it not 1 using and 1 not that would be unfair or more difficult.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Only way to settle this is to set up an event where you toggle between default and your custom HD while not actually allowing players to tell which they're using. Toggle them randomly and see if they can tell which HD they used to during the spar.

Or I can just open two Graal tabs and spar the same person on UN and on Classic.

[Polo]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Only way to settle this is to set up an event where you toggle between default and your custom HD while not actually allowing players to tell which they're using. Toggle them randomly and see if they can tell which HD they used to during the spar.

Something similar to this actually happened shortly after we switched to the NPC server scripted systems (including serverside hit detection), probably around mid-2005. I made a change to the scripted movement that literally broke everything, essentially throwing the entire player base onto default for a few hours; during that time we still continued to get complaints that this hit detection 'wasn't right', actually receiving more complaints about that than the fact that pretty much nothing on the server was working correctly.

With the serverside hit detection I eventually gave up trying to make it work like default, on the basis that due to differences in how lag would affect it we would never be able to get a perfect emulation anyway. At that point I intentionally diverged from default and just listened to the player feedback instead. As an example, when players complained that it was difficult to combo opponents, I tweaked the recoil distances and timing such that an opponent that charged straight back in could be hit again right at the point they came back within striking distance. This change made it much easier to combo aggressive or frustrated players, whereas those with a more defensive style could avoid it; the change was generally met with positive feedback, despite the fact it was different from how the default hit detection worked.

I've tried the hit detection on Classic and personally I didn't find it to be any different from how I remember default. I'll caveat that with the fact that I'm not a hugely active sparrer any more (though I was back in the day), and that I've spent the last 8 years playing and working almost exclusively on custom systems. If that somehow makes my opinion worth less then so be it. I did give Thor some feedback and suggested changes, but these came out of my own experiences tweaking hit detection for player entertainment and were not related to emulating default.

I hope that whatever is being experienced can be pinpointed and resolved, whether it be a script issue, lag issue or anything else. It would be an absolute shame for something like this to prevent people from experiencing such a quality server.

[Crono1508]

Thor, thanks for taking your time writing all the technical terms of your hit detection.

Just great-fabulous job. You worked really hard to get this server for live release, and you
proved that you could do it. Fantastic.

[gravator]

I don't have any problems with it at all, i sometimes see very slight delay when participating in events, but i chalk that up to where in the world a player may live, or what connection they have.

There have been some moments when playing CTF i hit another opponent, and they slip right on past me to attack from behind, that could be to the invincible frames one has after being hit, but that seems normal to me.

[TheGodAngelo]

i have no problems with hd. it's more balanced. if i lag and can't hit someone, they have trouble hitting me too.

[ffcmike]

It is not actually possible to enable default, there is a special server option in place, also used by GK and Zone which completely disables it, only Stefan can set that too.

Back when we were making the custom HD however, players were using default. I would sometimes switch players between the 2 and they weren't able to tell a difference. You could even be using the custom HD against someone using default, as they were working the same way by checking for the same sword gani.

[dmhabe]

Not trying to throw more rocks at you Thor but I agree with what everyone else is saying about the hit-detection. There is something distinctly off about Classics HD. Now I don't know much about the technical aspect of it, however most people who spar on UN absolutely hate it. The way players hit and receive hits is funky. The traditional way of using combos and "blink" is almost non-applicable. Its not lag or delay, something is just not right.

[scriptless]

I don't know if the difference in the HD varried from person to person but a few times, rarely I must add at that the other person would just be standing still (completely) and my sword would not hurt them at all. Right below the Burger place on Classic. I'm not sure what Classic uses for the hit detection itself as I know the defautl sword gani would cause a player to be hurt I believe. But if it is using a trigger that may be the problem I am noticing. My client seems to be triggering improperly (noticed it at first on testbed actually).

But again I am talking literally a 0.0001% alost completely unnoticable difference.

Also worth noting that I am more for the custom HD as I am a Graal Kingdoms player where we use are own HD anyways.

[DustyPorViva]

Because hit detection is clientside, if someone is lagging(or disconnected) they can't be hurt. This is because hit detection is completely dependent on what they see happening on their screen. If they see your sword hit them, they get hurt. So if they're lagging and none of your movement/actions is making it to them they they're impossible to hurt.

This also happens with default.

[scriptless]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Because hit detection is clientside, if someone is lagging(or disconnected) they can't be hurt. This is because hit detection is completely dependent on what they see happening on their screen. If they see your sword hit them, they get hurt. So if they're lagging and none of your movement/actions is making it to them they they're impossible to hurt.

This also happens with default.

Pretty much. Wondering is possible the HD causes or can be lagged any differently then default? On GK when a player starts lagging, it can spell bad news for them. Becasue other players who see that player in the same spot can spam there sword and kinda kill them. It happens more-so with monsters then players. You will see the monsters all walking in place not moving and then you just lose all your HP and die.

[Kamaeru]

Who cares what UN players think?
This is like building a mansion and inviting your black sheep side of the family from the trailer park over for dinner, and them in turn complaining because the expensive dinner you have provided for them doesn't taste right.

I like the new hit detection because it works better. Lamers were taking advantage of the old.

Thor hooked it up with steak and lobster, but these little kids are mad because they wanted chicken fingers and french fries.

[Crow]

Originally Posted by Kamaeru

I like the new hit detection because it works better.

How does it work better if it's practically just the same thing?

[Kamaeru]

Originally Posted by Crow

How does it work better if it's practically just the same thing?

Good question. To clarify my standards -- I compare everything on Graal to The Legend of Zelda A Link to the Past to check for qualification. And right now I think that Classic has the best and most responsive hit detection, which would meet or come close to those qualifications.

Originally Posted by Crono

You mean what was left of the "default" community? And it's not just UN, it includes iClassic aswell.

The real question you should have asked was "Who cares what people who don't even spar, let alone play the game, think?"

Actually I was making a direct insult to UN players but you can take it however you will.
And to qualify that statement I will back it up by saying that UN players don't value the same ethical standards that Classic is striving for, obviously.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Kamaeru

Who cares what UN players think?

You mean what was left of the "default" community? And it's not just UN, it includes iClassic aswell.

The real question you should have asked was "Who cares what people who don't even spar, let alone play the game, think?"

[maximus_asinus]

I like that someone said there was something "distinctly wrong" with Thor's system and then ended the post with "I don't know what it is". It seems like this is the general tone of the people against Thor's system and it makes me think they're hating just to hate. If you have an issue, document it and present it clearly. Stop being so vague. Try and help Thor fix what he has.

When I tried sparring under Thor's system I seen no real problems, it behaves like the default I remember. Great job Thor, I can't wait to get back on Classic.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I like that someone said there was something "distinctly wrong" with Thor's system and then ended the post with "I don't know what it is". It seems like this is the general tone of the people against Thor's system and it makes me think they're hating just to hate. If you have an issue, document it and present it clearly. Stop being so vague. Try and help Thor fix what he has.

The issue itself is hitting people at times where you wouldn't hit people on other servers.

Thor and I already had this discussion before and even sparred a few times ingame. Unless you're both using UDP and have low ping relative to eachother it's nothing like sparring on the other servers.

[Bell]

I have a simple solution to the problem. Pick a server and don't spar on any other server then you don't know if there is or isn't a difference and all the arguing over pixel slashing stops.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Bell

I have a simple solution to the problem. Pick a server and don't spar on any other server then you don't know if there is or isn't a difference and all the arguing over pixel slashing stops.

Nah, you see I actually excel with Classic's current HD. If anything, I benefit from it staying the way it is. This is what makes my arguement different, I'm not complaining because I'm losing.

[Gos_pira]

This might be an issue with GS2 rather than the scripts Thor made. It might only be fixed by Stefan.

[ff7chocoboknight]

Nope.

[Venom_Fish]

Honestly, everyone supporting this system doesn't spar or even play graal; wtf.

The Hit-Detection on Classic, for sparrers, sucks because you hit people from miles away and receive hits at weird times.

We don't code, we spar. We can't tell you what line you screwed up at, that's your job to find.

You can listen to all these forum-buffs who don't do anything else but talk about graal and rarely play it, but at the end of the day, your spar complex will forever remain barren until you fix this issue.

(Still don't know who makes a completely different system, NOT TO BE BETTER, but just to mimic what already exists).

[Crow]

Originally Posted by Venom_Fish

(Still don't know who makes a completely different system, NOT TO BE BETTER, but just to mimic what already exists).

Because the default one is not exactly customizable. In order to certain things with the default movement/sword system, you'll have to recode it. And then people like you with your elitist bullshit storm the forums saying it sucks, when the only problem is that it's different. That's what most of the community is usually good at: complain about any sort of change made. If you leave that as it is, the players will eventually accept it. So, Thor, I suppose that's your best bet.

[scriptless]

Originally Posted by Venom_Fish

Honestly, everyone supporting this system doesn't spar or even play graal; wtf.

The Hit-Detection on Classic, for sparrers, sucks because you hit people from miles away and receive hits at weird times.

We don't code, we spar. We can't tell you what line you screwed up at, that's your job to find.

You can listen to all these forum-buffs who don't do anything else but talk about graal and rarely play it, but at the end of the day, your spar complex will forever remain barren until you fix this issue.

(Still don't know who makes a completely different system, NOT TO BE BETTER, but just to mimic what already exists).

Whoa, I take offense. I've been scripting since 2002, I play EVERYDAY and I spar sometimes. Kinda curious tho how you guys are making such a judgment? You guys are used to a level3 shield, where-as currently you only have a level 1 on classic. So you're not as fast. As for hitting people across the level, that's false.. It's just a delay in reeiving the hit caused by player lag. And this happens on the default system aswell. It's just more noticable on the scripting one (for some people). Ex: have you tested against UDP players? I will say that very very few times I get a hit that's 100% legit and it doesn't hurt the player. As if the hit got lost or something. But that happens in the default system as well, tho even less often it appears.

Simply put, your gonna cry our system sucks? What disadvantages do you have over the other player? Since, ofcourse, your BOTH using the HD.. But you can come up with an excuse you want to not lose your spar rate.. go spar on un or something before it dies man.

[Kamaeru]

I logged on to UN last night and it was even worse than it was in 2003, so if my mind is stuck in 2003 then I am not even doing UN proper justice by bashing it enough.
That may change soon though.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Venom_Fish

Honestly, everyone supporting this system doesn't spar or even play graal; wtf.

I would consider myself a sparrer, having amassed over 1000 wins and 300 defeats since we began recording stats. Although I do not spar much now, I occasionally get PMs of "Hey can you come to the arena and end this guys streak?". I also have a rating of approximately 2050/77 which consists largely of spars against the winners of spar events that I have hosted.

Originally Posted by Venom_Fish

The Hit-Detection on Classic, for sparrers, sucks because you hit people from miles away

This is the expected behaviour, used to happen a hell of a lot more in the past with default when connections weren't so good.
It does not matter whatsoever how far away your opponent is on your screen when you hit them, or how far away they are on your friends screen when you hit them, the only thing that matters is how far away they are on their own screen.

It's a possibility there is something causing a slightly higher delay compared to UN or iPhone, though it might be something completely external to our systems. Plus there is also the factor that a higher number of players on the server seem to be unaware of the benefits of UDP.

Originally Posted by Venom_Fish

and receive hits at weird times.

Weird times such as what?
Having seen the built-in code for the sword mechanism, and directly compared ours with default as shown in a video, I'm very certain the basic sword detection is how it should be, and such claims of "the hit box size is wrong" are false.
I even had one person complaining about the fact they were hit while blinking the second they attempted to slash their nearby opponent who was also slashing, which is actually a behaviour that is copied from default.

Originally Posted by Venom_Fish

We don't code, we spar. We can't tell you what line you screwed up at, that's your job to find.

I code, and I spar. Having re-scrutinised the code countless times, having tested spars and debugged the detection countless times, I am not aware of one thing that needs changing. Any change could just as easily make it less like default.

Originally Posted by Venom_Fish

Still don't know who makes a completely different system, NOT TO BE BETTER, but just to mimic what already exists.

We didn't make a system to be exactly the same as default and offer no improvements whatsoever.
There are a lot of advantages within our scripted systems that cannot be achieved while using the default ones. Not unless you're able to get Stefan to add it to the client, which unless it directly benefits iPhone, is like dropping a bottled message in the middle of the ocean.

For example:

1. The invincibility blink that happens when you respawn, preventing spawn laming.
2. The ability to define quest or event levels to impose certain behaviours. Like in quest levels you can be damaged by NPCs, but not players.
3. The fact that in spar levels you can damage those with the same guild tag, but if a spar and event level, you can't.
4. The ability to spar or play events with 100 AP, be hittable, and not lose it.
5. The ability to walk through your guild mates or those with 100 AP outside of spar/pk/event levels.
6. The ability to have a customised blink behaviour for events like CTF, a necessity for closed base modes.