Graal Community
 

so i decide to ask i know people say in the past to let iphone players get on pc ect but i got a suggestion
y not make a iphone classic tab
or since there's 2 iphone servers at the moment
why not due what graal did in the past put gold coins beside it and pay to play just that server ?

I'm pretty sure if this doesn't happen PC graal will be dead due the community is getting smaller and smaller

No, the PC community is mostly poison.

If you want to play then go on Facebook.

Also Zodiac hit 100 the other day, I'd say we're sustaining.

The PC Graal community isn't really getting smaller anymore though, sure it's still fairly stagnant and being neglected, but player intake (pre-dominantly iPhone refugees, despite the overpriced subscription policy) is at the least matching the number of player loss, so it's at something of an equilibrium. If anything the numbers could get higher given some care.

I disagree, considering a lot of the PC players that want to play iClassic already do. If anything they made sparring more competitive and iSparrers take sparring more seriously now.

tbh the end goal should really be to open access to the server we call iClassic through multiple platforms (real graal, iDevices, android, etc).

Haven't we asked for cross-platform access for a while now?

A problem with this would be that all of the PC servers would end up at a severe disadvantage, unless ofcourse the subscription policy for PC Graal was improved to be more similar to iPhone's, or iClassic was of sufficient quality to attract a substantial amount of legit new players on the PC platform (which is unlikely at this time), which could then through migration be of benefit to the other servers.
An improved subscription policy however would increase the likelihood of PC Classic eventually flourishing, which does utilise the advantages of the PC platform to offer higher quality gameplay.

Uh, what? Why?

The point is so that iPlayers can play the server on their PC's/Macs comfortably without facebook so that our community isn't fragmented. It's a long term goal that assumes this stupid subscription garbage is figured out.

iPhone and fbGraal are for losers.

I still can't believe such bullshit exists.

In defragmenting that one particular community, the much greater set of external circumstances that apply to it could potentially starve the multiple smaller communities on PC Graal, which are still enduring a poorer set of external circumstances.
The ideal direction would be to allow all communities to flourish, that way Graal still makes its profit and none of the players lose out. It's also still arguable that greater PC access could have a negative effect on iPhone, as the bulk of its playerbase would then also be at a technical disadvantage.

Except it wont because all these servers will be under one roof. If someone doesnt want to play what we now call iClassic or iEra then they will simply play another server.

There aren't many on PC Graal that want to play those servers, which is why they continue to exclusively play PC Graal. There are a lot of iPlayers that want to explore PC Graal but they can't because of the restrictive system.


An even larger bulk of it's playerbase is apparently at a technical disadvantage today so how does more iPlayers playing on PC put a greater bulk of its playerbase at a technical disadvantage (as I assume you're implying)?

Greater PC access arguably evens the playerbase more. When v6 eventually does get released a lot of them will be able to comfortably hop on Graal on their computers. The biggest problem for a lot of them outside of the poor subscription system is (and I'm assuming this but it sounds reasonable) poor performance/support on their Macs and laptops. Playing on their portable devices (android, iDevices) wherever they want and the option to hop on normal Graal for the optimum experience. Sounds good to me.

That's not at all certain though, the numbers of those who choose not to play the iServers could be insignificant compared to the numbers such an option could result in PC servers losing upfront, plus the long term effect of legit new players naturally trying whichever server has the highest playercount first.
Even if the restrictive subscriptions on PC Graal were to be resolved there'd still be a fairly big gulf between the external circumstances.

There seems to be a lot of complaining among iPhone players regarding their technical disadvantage sparring against those using the Facebook client, which while it offers the advantage of side straithing, doesn't run as smoothly as the PC client, and so could well be more of a problem.

You do realize that without side strafing you can't even compete at higher levels of sparring right?

You will almost never be able to land side hits or blink well enough. Same problem happens on certain keyboards, usually IBM ones.

That's what I implied.

That seems to be the biggest reason why iPhone should just stay the **** away from PC Graal.

Discussing iPhone/fbGraal always makes me feel like PC Graal has just been swept under the rug.

That's quite possibly the worst logic I've ever heard. The more playerbase you get on Graal, period, the more players you're going to have on any given server. Back when Classic dominated the playerlist there were still 5-6 other servers with a playerbase of atleast 50, which is good.

Now if you mean Classic will be overshadowed by iClassic, yeah probably. Who knows though, really.


I'm quite sure that the top tier iClassic sparrers have access to FB accounts. Not only that but important tournies like the GST is split between the FB server and iClassic server so no such thing is a problem. To eradicate sparring complaints there could be rooms dedicated to PC only and rooms dedicated to iSparrers only. You'd then have a room where everyone can join etc.

If scoreboard is the issue (which it isn't, if you look at the iClassic top 10 it's pretty much who you'd expect) then you'd have different scoreboards for PC sparrers and iSparrers. i.e you have two different sparring rates.

Complete nonsense. Side strafing is, imo, a technical advantage but it's not required to win even in high tier spars. Whether you like it or not the iServers are the only future PC Graal has. The only reason we've had a small influx of players in the past few years is because of the popularity Graal gained on the iDevice.

So you'd be mad that they'd be at a disadvantage? Why do you care?

Back when Classic dominated the serverlist most of the servers shared a similar level of external circumstances, that same logic can not be applied in this instance. For this to be the same again PC servers would not only need a better subscription format, but the luxury of also being cross-platform, which simply isn't feasible.

I'm not necessarily referring to Classic, but it is arguably in a very good position to potentially aid PC Graal moving forward as its own entity. If it were to become overshadowed that would be setting a bad precedent.

Which is why in the event of Stefan and Unixmad realising what internal factors made iPhone a success, and actually taking measures to apply that to PC Graal, combining it with the greater capabilities offered by a computer, could also gain a higher level of popularity (albeit nobody could foresee it reaching the same height on the PC market).
Granted, I doubt it.

Well considering you are not, and never were in the high tiers of sparring, you have no idea what you're talking about. Strafing is a requirement for good sparring, period, and all good sparrers strafe.

And I don't like that "iDevices are Graals future," and I never will. And I don't have too. Not to mention PC Graal has not seemingly been supported (hardly) at all these past years would show that the only way Graal could have any popularity anymore is through the iDevices, which is entirely on Stefan and Unixmad's hands.

Because I don't enjoy sparring against kids who can't even defend themselves against things us PC sparrers have long since been used too. I like a challenge.

The reason why sparring is even remotely skill based is because of the even-playing field. Equal movement speed, equal freedom of movement, equal damage dealt, equal starting health, and reduced/no lag are what make for great spars. If someone can't even maneuver the same way inherently because of the device they're on, I'll personally win 9/10 times just because they won't be able to avoid sidehits, or a simple blink movement.

the PC community not getting any bigger just tired of playing with average 75 players on a server when i can play with 200+ again

that problem will only get resolved through getting the word out about the game and selling the idea as something people would enjoy.

Because of ****ing observer mode.

Making Accounts free and using f2p. people should be able to purchase whatever they want, so ATLEAST they dont have to pay gold for that stupid playercount on graal.

Again, not helping your argument. The fact that servers are so different would bring even MORE appeal to servers like Zodiac and Valikorlia. Whether a server is cross-platform or not doesn't matter.

There would be no more "PC Graal" "iPhone Graal" "Android Graal", yes you can play on multiple devices depending on the server, and yes things like spars would probably be seperated based on what platform you're playing on (computer / portable).

Ya what do I know. Zeross dominates the scene and I beat him on my first try and go back and forth every other time. I've only managed to take down Ares, Unleash, Squirt, Thallen, etc, but they're probably not top tier either right?

p.s my guildmates and I are the reigning champions of the largest spar tourney in Graal history. Feels good bro.

lmao, I can see you getting stomped on iClassic with that ****y attitude.

Which tournament do you consider to be the largest? I always felt it was Graalympics, which no one from US ever won. Must be nice in this day and age to stand behind the likes of Ares and Brett and brag about how good your guild is at sparring.

I mean come on dude, have you ever even won UTC? You would lose to every single person you've mentioned in a series, easily if they're on top of their game.

It's nothing to take personally, and I don't mean it as such. You're still a decent sparrer, but I'm sure every single one of them would back me up when I say that strafing is an important movement in sparring, and that sparring without it is a handicap. It's common sense.

And my attitude towards iClassic makes it such that I would never log onto it in the first place.

There was only one real Graalympics and funny enough I was in it for the most unlikely server. The sparring section of that had, what, 8 competitors? The GST on FB alone rivals the playercounts of Graal's largest PC servers. Brett doesn't spar on iClassic.

No, and if I actually took sparring seriously and practiced in series vs top tier sparrers im confident I could take them. I spar once or twice then go ADD off to other games.

Like I said, strafing is a technical advantage but you don't need it to win against someone of equal skill.

This is what I mean though, your view of iClassic spar is skewed.

Quantity over quality? NJ won the biggest sparring tournament on PC Graal (I only took 3rd place ;_; ) although your FB tournament may have had more people in it. I guess we can just say the unofficial one didn't count, I mean Tortoise won that and who cares about that hacking ***got.

My point still stands then.

I really, really doubt someone could win consistently in a series against someone with high skill who can strafe when they cannot. Taking a few spars is not the same as winning against them consistently, which is what real sparrers strive for.

I can't help but feel that it's inferior. Over 10 years of evolving metagame on PC sparring just inherently seems superior. iKids don't even know what sidehits are, may not realize PC Graal exists, and apparently think you don't need strafing! The hell kind of **** is that?

I don't think so. I've watched "higher level" sparrers spar, and not a single strafe was given that day.

Wait, wait, wait. Is all this really just to justify that strafing in a spar is reason enough to not converge the Graal community and re-vitalize PC Graal? None of that actually matters if spar rooms were dedicated to particular platforms and it doesn't effect high tier spars at all, so what are you complaining about?


Graal's sparring metagame evolved slowly, whereas the iSparrers got a kickstart when the PC community began sparring there. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

Praydoh a "higher level sparrer" lololol

And you do realize that there is strafing going on there right? Some of those movements are impossible without it. It's especially obvious when either of them blink, and Squirt utilizes the strafing better to move while holding the blink (and abuses walls like he always does) and looks like he won pretty easily.

No. I have not been arguing about whether or not the two communities should converge, I've only been concerned with the sparring discussion of strafing. If the iCommunity complains about being at a disadvantage about not being able to strafe, I have to agree with them. It's a pretty large disadvantage, and they won't be a challenge for someone with access to it.

But let the two converge, whatever. I'll still dislike the platform they're on because it exists at all. As I've already mentioned, having Graal on iPhone makes me feel like PC Graal has been pushed aside, like they want it to just die out and be forgotten. Maybe that's not how Stefan or Unixmad view it, but that's how it feels to me, and others I've talked with share my sentiments. Not everyone of course, but a lot of my friends do, at least the ones who are left who still are my friends. Perhaps that opinion has died out even more - I haven't been able to log on in 5 months now since I've been in Europe.

That was bound to happen, they had to be introduced to it somehow and obviously some PC players would get on the iDevices. If they can't even strafe then they won't have access to some strategies, at least not in the way they're typically used. I'm sure they'll eventually evolve their own metagame.

PC Graal was has been rotting from incompetence since v5's release. The iServers have raked in more players than we've ever seen on this game and PC Graal's only real salvation post subscription-fix is convergence.

Doesn't stop iSparrers from beating PC users and even hopping on FB and competing + beating UN based guilds like Mother (consisting of Talbourn, Zeross, etc) in the GST. Smurf if you have to, but I want you to make a fake FB, get on iClassic, and start sparring because your view is incredibly off.

I agree with the F2P model. I beleive Graal might even make a ton more using it. (More players + more buyable items)

Unless someone wants to make a presentation on the comparisons of why F2P vs P2P, I don't see them wanting to go with it :(

While I don't disagree, it still is the case that instead of them fixing the incompetence, they just go and create and entirely new thing to eventually be incompetent about. Then they can take the two and put them together and be incompetent about both of them.

I'll do this at the end of the month, when I'm not on an IBM keyboard that freezes up when you hit more than 4 keys at once.

I'll log on with no practice for over 8 months (Pretty sure that's how long it's been since I really sparred. I did spar like 3-4 times before leaving for Europe (and still won) but I wouldn't call that being practiced) and series some kids. I'll be the definitive PC sparrer to represent over 10 years of "PC Sparring" even though I'm not considered the best of all time, and you round up all the top iSparrers to try and defeat me. No PC-users-turned-idevice-users allowed. It'll be fun - maybe you'll be right, maybe I'll be right. If you want to do tag-teams I can ask Zid to come with me and we'll reform skullgang.

Yeah, I think so. Especially going by your own logic here, where he has won UTC quite a few times and spars on par with the people that Crono mentioned:

That video is from a UTC final round.

I guess this is where your inexperience on the ACTUAL subject shows. Squirt does nothing in that spar that you cannot do on an iPod. If you look at the last round in the video especially, all Squirt does is circle PrayDoh to hit him. I see once where he tries to strafe, hit and it doesn't land. That is why I do not believe that strafing is necessary for "higher sparring" as you put it. Many of the iPod sparrers on iPhone Classic spar like this, and I've actually seen him do it himself on an iPod.

This arrogance is embarrassing, especially considering that you've always lagged to your own advantage in the last few times I've seen you spar on Unholy Nation.

Perhaps the movements are to miniscule for you to really notice them? Or perhaps you don't understand how blink-mechanics work well enough to know how to move sideways while holding the blink - a movement which in certain directions requires strafing? Go to 1 minute, and watch how Praydoh moves upwards to the left to hold his blink - that movement is not possible on IBM keyboards because you cannot strafe in that direction.

Or maybe you didn't see how there were practically zero sidehits the entire spar, a technique which requires strafing to pull off without the opponent running into you?

Using Praydoh, who is an above average sparrer but and certainty NOT on par with those Crono mentioned, and Squirt, who uses walls to his advantage more than anything to win as examples of not needing strafing to win is pretty poor.

What is with you and Crono suddenly thinking you know how to spar? Has the population decreased so drastically that you're considered good now? You guys are decent, sure, but high tier? I'm sorry, but no.

Now you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Anyone who knows how I spar knows that I get better the less I lag. I'm a defensive ***** who only attacks where I can score sidehits, land an easy move-to-where-they're-going-to-be-after-getting-hit hit (which is what I only used to do before blink was fixed) or because they get sick of chasing me around and I switch things up and go all out offense until they try again. The less I lag, the more likely I am to mindtrick someone in to allowing me to hit them, or forcing them to run into my sword.

This is the difference between me holding an average 2k/high 1900 rating versus the 1800 or so I've held the last few years. Sparrers I typically beat actually beat me more consistently because I'm lagging.

The lag I have been experiencing is why I've slowly sparred less and less, up until now where I hardly spar at all. I've even sat out of those friendly tag-team spars that pop up BECAUSE I lag too much. Is that using lag to my advantage - not sparring at all because of it?

You're only looking at it on the high end of the scale, when the effects can cause it go both ways. Weighing it up, the pulling power of simply being a different alternative server isn't as strong as playercount in itself. Given that these servers would have the advantage of being accessible on iPhone, Facebook and Android, while the normal PC servers would be one platform only, ofcourse they could suffer.
I'm not saying normal PC servers would necessarily die out as a result, but it could prevent them from flourishing, inwhich there'd still be the same global lack of developmental incentive, opportunity and motivation, which is bad for Graal.

What about PKing, Guild forts and every other form of spec-reliant combat competition?
Would they be segregated too?
If so that kindof overrides one of the main points of being cross platform in the first place.
If you're only going to have PC users sparring other PC users within meaningful competitions, that's very time inefficient to be staffed and developed for the sake of one server. It makes more sense to have each platform catering to their respective set of players, where a more prosperous PC Graal (also development platform) makes it more viable for such competitions to be developed on both platforms, either directly or through system sharing.

All I see at 1 minute is Prado getting hit three times in a row by Squirt who is not strafing at all. Must be my lack of spar skills, or hell, could it be that without side strafing you can compete at higher levels of sparring? Or maybe Squirt, who won the tournament, isn't high enough level for you. Etc etc.

There are several side hits throughout the video. Yes, there is a bias towards right-facing hits, but there are still left-facing hits which cannot be strafed.

I'm pretty sure that neither of us even implied that we were 'high tier' but that is not relevant at all. It does not take someone who is 'high tier' to know how to spar on a PC, have access to iPods, and have sparred on both to understand the limitations. You haven't done this, so how you can think you're some big guru on the subject is beyond me.

Okay so you lag and you're saying **** like "I'll be the definitive PC sparrer to represent over 10 years of "PC Sparring" even though I'm not considered the best of all time, and you round up all the top iSparrers to try and defeat me." Yeah no, that's definitely an arrogant and embarrassing attitude to me.

I honestly can't believe you still view it at that incredibly unrealistic angle. If you increase the amount of people logging on through computers you're increasing the total playerpool and will inevitably increase the playercount of other servers, even by a minimal amount.


There aren't complaints about it outside of sparring and strafing is such a minimal effect in those fields that it isn't important.

I was talking about Praydoh's movements. I even told you the direction he was going. So I guess you really can't tell.

Sidehits are not simply "hits taken from the side" as the face-value of the term suggests.


All I've been arguing is that strafing is necessary for good sparring. The only argument back is "you can win without it" which is like saying you can use the numpad to move around and win but you'll be at an obvious disadvantage, and no one good does that.

Sure, I'm ****y when it comes to sparring, what of it? I win a lot.

And I'll fix up my lag once I'm home. I got a new router recently which I think was most of my lag problem (I hope).

So Prado is strafing it's not actually doing anything for him as he's hit three times in a row, yet you believe that it is imperative to higher sparring?

I am not contesting that strafing is or isn't an advantage in sparring, but I do not believe that it is tantamount to a 'higher sparring level'. As Crono said, strafing is a technical advantage but you don't need it to win against someone of equal skill. Decent iPhone sparrers can beat experienced PC sparrers and they do not have the ability to strafe.