Gold Accounts (Making Them Worth-While)
 

Hello, all.
I'll get straight to the point.
There should be a new perk added to having a gold subscription.
Currently, there's little other purpose than working/owning a developer server or the usual upgrade to play Classic Playerworlds.

In light of this, a very lucrative addition would be to allow Gold Subscriptions to log on iPhone/Facebook, similar to how VIP's on facebook can log on Era iPhone.

In summation, by interlinking the servers through Gold/VIP subscriptions, you really grant people a reason to upgrade their accounts (even classic).
To be quite frank, very few people are interested in Kingdoms/Zone anymore (the numbers are clear). Therefore, this would really be an adequate and appropriate replacement.

This may seem like a simple and obvious way for Graal to make money, and I'm sure there probably would be some interest in this among PC users, but you also have to consider that this would put a much larger number of players who use an iDevice at a disadvantage. The main reason it is such an attractive proposition to PC users is simply the sheer playercount, which could be damaged if the majority of users begin to suffer a worse experience.

Not only this, but in merging the two communities there's a risk the older community could open up the eyes of the younger community towards the lower standards they have been buying into. I imagine that if attitudes were to be influenced in such a way it could actually cost more money in the long haul than it would create at first.

I do agree however that Gold subscription is becoming redundant, I imagine that Gold or Classic subscription may be phased out or watered down should micro-transactions kick in on a larger scale.

ffcmike is a genius.

The part I glued myself to is where Thor said "Gold Subscription is becoming redundant" because if I remember correctly, we were supposed to be removing Gold Subscription entirely once Stefan worked on and fleshed out a similar system of "Global Gelat Shop" to that of the iDevice shop. The question I'd be asking, rather than suggesting additional perks for Gold Subscription, is: "Is that still happening or not?"

@ffcmike
A very valid argument that I also juggled around in my head.
However, that bridge seems to have been partially crossed by allowing Classic Facebook players to log on iPhone.

To be quite frank, a lot of the players that seek such a privilege are PC players who only do it for the sheer playercount.

I mean, since the release of facebook and that option, Unholy Nation has lost a lot of its playerbase to not facebook, but Classic iPhone.
In reference, the effects you described, which only seem logical, have yet to become prevalent.

Therefore, I'd have to ask, will they, with certainty, be the case?

Or will it be coherent with the co-existence of facebook/iphone players and unproblematic (for the most part)?

@TSAdmin:
Yeah, "Free To Play", was the whole announcement, as I recalled.

Admittedly it's entirely speculation on my part rather than through definitive evidence, but I'd imagine a lot of the players crossing that bridge from UN are more the competitive type, as opposed to the casual type.
Should the older community therefore have an influence on the attitudes of the younger community, that could potentially shift some of the focus off of item collecting and flaunting, and onto more conventional gameplay such as sparring and guild forts.
Whether this would have any effect on income would really depend on how much income is generated through in-game sales compared to purchasing of VIP or cross-platform accessibility, that is assuming there is no movement to harness the more competitive desires in such ways as developing events.

Something else I should have mentioned though, is that Graal's management must surely realise they need to keep PC Graal open for the sake of being the development platform to their mainstream servers.
So on one hand, they wouldn't want to do something that hinders PC Graal too much, or else that could have consequences on potential development of new resources.
But on the other hand, I don't think they'll want PC Graal to be too successful either, as this could shift traffic towards a more chaotic player-ran environment as opposed to their controlled environments.

Facebook/PC Access to iPhone servers has killed their community or at least hyper-aged it and further exposes them to hacking and the ****heads that are banned in the PC communities.

yup. facebook version itself is pointless, we already have a pc game why do we need facebook aswell? have our normal client share the same server as the facebook one and get rid of "VIP". as a pc player who used to play iphone it's dumb to let us play there on pc.

I agree, Facebook seemed like a cool idea at the time, but it was a tremendous waste of time.

I kinda doubt that Facebook has brought ANY new players to Graal.

VIP stuff was phased out some time ago. I mean, some servers still have (VIP) guild-related stuff, but it isn't as integral as it used to be.

Wrong VIP, and I haven't seen any server do anything special for the global VIP guild at all.

Stefan/unixmad brought back iOS/Facebook VIP so you can travel back and forth between the two servers.

This allows players on Facebook to go to the iPhone world which kinda makes all the "unique" changes on the Facebook world pointless because not enough people are sticking around because they would rather be on the server with a 1000 people instead of 50 (makes perfect sense for a social game).

VIP should of let iOS clients go to the Facebook world but instead it allowed two way travel that is unfortunately at the expense of the community and more damaging (i.e: many act like entitled ****s and it's a much more negative atmosphere now) in the long run.

He means the VIP accounts on Classic iPhone.

i like how you ignored everything else.

Surprisingly, content could probably work too.

Kingdoms has VIP Masks. :D

No idea about other servers, though.

@ffcmike&fowlplay4
Still juggling it around in my head, but it seems like that fowlplay4 just provided a very valuable insight in his describing the effects of the facebook/iphone VIP access on Classic Facebook.

Seeing as Graal is a social game, there's a natural tendency to migrate to wherever is most populated. Perhaps if PC players are granted the option to vacate their 50-60 average playerbase server for one(s) averaging 1000+, this would, with proven certainty, drastically drain the playerbase of PC graal.

In reference to your argument, the existence of PC Graal seems crucial to the progressive development of these more densely populated servers.

However, I still want to further the inquiry, seeing as most development/developers tend to rent private servers for their work and/or enjoy building their own pieces. Although most of these pieces are unsuccessful in their rise to popularity or even completion, few servers do stem out.

In short, players tend to migrate to where its most populated.
Developers normally migrate to where its least populated.
However, they tend to direct the fruits of their labor to said populated areas.

Therefore, would the assimilation of these separate platforms really affect development?

In a worst case scenario, wouldn't PC Graal just turn into a development-only platform?

Also, if so many eager developers stemmed from such a small overall playerbase before, wouldn't the number simply increase with a now larger pool?

You do know how to use quotations on this forum, right?

The majority of developers who work on hidden servers are inexperienced/unproven, and aren't able to create successful new servers or new resources that could generate significant income.
Not only this, but getting a new server onto the list where it can then maintain a playercount has to be the single biggest motivation, even if it is unrealistic.
Getting a new server onto an iDevice/Facebook would be even harder due to the lower capabilities, higher need for such a server to perform, not to mention the endorsement of Stefan, who is also probably going to want such resources to be tested in a populated environment first anyway.

Much of the better developers are already involved with established servers (if anywhere), where however much of the work operates on a smaller time scale focussed around entertaining the current population. When it comes to redeveloping older servers, nobody has yet managed to break back through, few have remained motivated to continue their project in the absence of a playercount.

It also has to be considered that while there would still be a lot of interest from players to rent a server (LOL LOOK AT ME I HAVE STAFF BOOTS), much of the scripts added to rented servers are copied from the code gallery, generally (not always ofcourse) by scripters involved with established servers.

Hm, valid argument.
However, in a more factored and general form, the majority of developers are inexperienced/unproven and, as you stated, the few experienced developers, for the most part, are engaged in established servers.

In reference to all this, the question still remains unanswered and
the effects of VIP Access to all platforms still seems to be mainly pertinent to players.

Also, I cannot give much validation to your argument for an isolated PC Graal simply for the maintenance of a test-based population. I must deny this validation due to the fact that most of the servers that are now on the Classic Tab stemmed from UC Servers who vigilantly pursued the unrealistic goal of "Classic" status.

In retrospect, these UC servers developed a distinct popularity while still underground.

That being said, why will this sort of development, which has been the way for lord knows how long, be affected by the shifting of the playerbase to a more densely populated platform? When after all, the playerbase has always shifted to where it was most densely populated.

The only developmental effects I see, and correct me if I'm wrong, would be the coming insignificance of current Classic Servers/Status. Their loss of population would be similar to that of Gold Servers and henceforth their established developers would be at a loss, which would either motivate them to improve their performance, concepts, and direction, or ultimately falter and resign.

In short, wouldn't Classic/Gold become comparable to Hosted (better developed UC Servers), and universal iPhone/Facebook servers become an assimilation of what we knew as Classic/Gold? Basically, the popularity of Classic Servers, at the price of Gold.

All in all, it seems like a very lucrative approach, doesn't it?

I should clarify that I'm not arguing in favour of what I feel is the best solution, but the impression I have obtained as to the purpose of PC Graal.

PC Graal becoming sparsely populated in favour of higher playerbases on different platforms could possibly result in development becoming more exclusive to the elite. In terms of meaningful development this won't make much difference at first, but in taking away the albeit false perception among newer players that they could have their own server being played by a lot of players, this could reduce the more real incentive of new players to learn development for themself.

Again I think this is where you have to weigh up how many players would be willing to pay for accessibility, against any potential hindrance to the experience of players on other platforms, combined with potential change in the production of new resources, where it can also be argued improvement may yet be required in order for the iPhone servers to sustain themself long term.

Facebook Graal = Logging in to Graal from a computer
Why not let us access it from the normal client

This has been debated many times. 99% sure Stefan said it'd be unfair to give players the advantage of sparring and stuff from logging in from the normal client.

On the other hand, if you pay even more money, you still get to do it via facebook.

1. Understood.

2. Why would the perception be taken away? If anything, would it not grow? I mean, with the possibility of having their server played by thousands rather than 10s, it seems like the incentive would only grow. Perhaps the task of developing a multi-platform accommodating server is more difficult (not sure, I don't develop), but the genuine reward, in comparison to the past, seems to be much larger.

Overall, the potential playerbase of their developing server(s) will drastically increase while the requirements will remain the same, for the most part. For, as previously expressed, if the server is good enough, UC or no UC, players will be attracted to it. Also, if this is as successful with the players as I imagine, it'd only increase the likelihood of players trying UC servers because many will have the account-status for it.

In short, with a larger potential and unchanging requirements to attain said potential, why would anyone be discouraged?

3. This is a very valid argument, weighing the consequences should be a part of every rational decision, especially in business.

However, perhaps we've conducted the first step of the weighing process: speculation. Therefore, the best route would be to use an in-game poll to get a rough head-count of the players that'd endorse this change... I suspect many/most will.

The main problem I see is lack of examples, if you look at the current PlayerWorlds Tab, while they are now "official" servers of Graal, they were all at some point developed entirely by players having previously been an under construction world.
If you look at the 2 iPhone servers however, they were overseen by Graal's management to begin with, and while most of the development staff are still volunteers, several of the higher-up developers (plus the original developers behind iClassic) have expressed frustration towards a lack of creative freedom.

The requirements will not be the same, mobile devices have much lower CPU capacity (among other disadvantages), where a greater level of scripting knowledge is required to ensure servers are optimised/efficient and not too excessive.
UC Servers will also not be able to move onto a different platforms just for the sake of it, they will have to be capable of generating profit.

It remains to be seen what exactly will become of Gold + Lifetime Classic subscription, and what status will be required to play hidden servers.
If anything rented servers could become at an even bigger disadvantage to established servers which are free to play but include a gelat shop, as it's unlikely this will be allowed for free without restrictions.

It's already quite clear that this would be popular among dozens of PC players, but again I'd imagine it would be unpopular among a few hundred mobile users.

Where did these iPhone servers stem from? Classic Playerworlds.
Where did Classic Playerworlds stem from? Hosted Servers.
Where did Hosted servers stem from? UC Servers.
You get where I'm going with this?
They are all interrelated, and at the root of it all, we find UC Servers.
Era or Classic were initially designed to accommodate the PC platform, but were altered in order to fit the requirements of the iPhone OS.

In reference, the Classic/Hosted Tabs can still exist and these gradual progressions would be left unharmed. UC servers apply for Hosted, eventually for Classic, then if the success continues and their concepts are lucrative, they may be transformed into iPhone Servers with the help of GraalOnline's Development staff, such as Stefan and Skyld. In short, the amount of work put in remains relatively the same, but the potential output increases.

As far as developers complaining about lack of creative freedom, they'll get over it as they should. In my opinion, developers are the builders, not framers. Simply because you can develop, it does not necessarily mean you know what needs to be developed. If you want creative freedom, get a UC server. By joining a team, you can no longer cling on to individual freedom when it comes down to what should or what needs to be done.


If they are popular and seemingly profitable Classic servers, I'm sure Stefan and others would be more than interested in ushering their conversion to fit the iPhone/Facebook platform requirements.

Furthermore, if they're not profitable... they still Classic; nothing's lost, right?

Rented Servers have always been at a disadvantage.
I thought the point of having a rented server was mainly for development. When you have organized, well-developed, and playable content, you apply for Hosted and move on from there, right?
Forgive if I'm wrong, but I don't see how this would be a byproduct of allowing multi-platform access to VIP Subscribers.





You've already allowed PC on to iPhone (through facebook).
By doing that, the door's already opened for iPhone through PC Graal Client.
To be quite frank, I thought PC-VIP players having access to iPhone would come first lol.

When the PlayerWorlds were originally created, development was a lot simpler/easier (albeit more primitive) and was more accessible to players.
Development has since advanced at the expense of accessibility to players, and subsequently few new servers have broke through to and remained on the PlayerWorlds list, the most recent example is Zodiac which was over 5 years ago.

Neither of the 2 current iPhone servers were constructed without Stefan's oversight and/or active involvement, so there are yet no examples which can prove this can be achieved pre-dominantly by player developers.
Out of these 2 servers, one happens to share the name with what was again a server who's original creation was overseen by Graal's management.

In short, there isn't much credence to the idea that players can successfully design their own world as it is, yet quite a lot of players still believe it to be closely enough in reach to spend $100+ pursuing it.
Now imagine a PlayerWorlds tab consisting of a significantly reduced population due to attraction to cross-platform servers, would that PlayerWorlds tab still be as much of an appealing prospect to aspiring server developers?

If a new server were to somehow become populated and lucrative purely as a PC server, chances are that by this point it would require a vast amount of re-working in order to be viable on a mobile device. In comparison the 2 current iPhone servers aswell as iKingdoms were all constructed with the intention of being an iPhone server to begin with.
Therefore I believe it would be very problematic transition.

I can agree that a team of developers need to be working towards a common goal as opposed to it being a group of individuals working towards their own ideals. But there comes a time where a product may need a bit of innovation, if you starve it too much it becomes stagnant.

This doesn't really go that far against the arguments made towards PC > iPhone, as some of the disadvantages still apply. Stefan has also claimed that Facebook Graal is even slower than it is on an iPhone, which if true reduces any potential unfairness in terms of competitions.

yup

Yeah, because Graal has so many dangerous hackers that plague this game still today. You probably didn't play when hackers were actually an issue, people like Jelly and Viper. We're in the year 2011, if you want to credit the 10 or so PC players that play Facebook Graal via PC as the reason to why their community has been "killed" then you're lost.

I think you should allow the PC to access the Iphone servers...Delteria is currently in the works to be an iphone server so we have been testing both aspects of Iphone and PC and its just a smaller screen. If you build the server properly you can phase out these "dis-advantages" tapping a sword button on a screen is the same as mashing the A,S or D button on a computer is it not?

-If you form the systems where the computer players can't switch weapons or do things faster than iphone players then youre not really cheating anyone.

If anything...if you allowed the idevice and pc community to integrate you'd only bring more players to the PC...and probably find more developers for the game. What would be better if someone was playing on their Idevice on a bus then got home was able to log off and then log on to the SAME account on their computer...just for larger play...

I remember arguing these same points when iPhone Graal was just beginning, Curious to see a response now that it seems properly worded.

Wait until there's hundreds/thousands of players within a level or region of the map, and then compare the difference.
Even with all the optimisations within the iPhone client and with native systems, there are still lag problems which wouldn't be so excessive on a computer.

What about the sideways straith which can be accomplished by holding multiple arrow keys at once?
It's a very common technique with traditional sword combat, but can't be accomplished easily with a handheld device.

Or why not encourage PC servers to add lots of neat features which can't be accomplished with an iPhone, and market it as an alternative improved version of the game?

I can at least say doing that on Delteria, it's not possible to perfectly strafe at all on the PC as well as the iPhone.

The movement is more of an issue, I think. If PC players could play Era iPhone, iPhone players would be at a severe disadvantage. You just don't have near the level of control you have on a keyboard.

For arguments sake, not saying it's a legit argument, but it does provide a alternative bandaid solution to the problem

If I google "Bluetooth keyboard for iPhone" I can find tiny keyboards for such for 10 to 20 bucks.

http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CIwBEPMCMAI

You don't need Gold to get a developer account, surprisingly enough. They're two different subscriptions that can share the same account name.

So really, the only point to the 'Gold' subscription is getting the little extra item packs on different servers and a number of gelats refilled right now.

As it stands, even the Gold subscription seems to be disappearing in favor of gelat refills through the gelat shop. Personally, I hope things go this way and we start seeing great sales figures in the microtransaction department. It's already worked great for Zodiac, and it could work well for other servers too.

If server developers sell items very well on their server through the gelat shop and the server traffic is fairly high on average, they should receive a reward in the form of time extensions on their developer account.

For Mods reading this...I am not bashing Linux Cyberjoueur, Graal, or either Stefan. I am just voicing opinions maybe to make a brighter future for graal.

Honestly...I know this would never happen, but Graal has lost A LOT of very good developers over the time because there is no incentive or kick back from the game. At first it was having hundreds of people play your server...But now...The PC population is dead. I think Graal would be a much larger success if they opted a kickback % towards developers or servers. Basically lets say you developed a server GOOD enough to be hosted on either PC or Iphone...Iphone has packages that graal players can purchase with USD...Why not set up a % based system...I can promise it would bring a lot of developers to graal. I'm not saying they would have to give them a ton..but think about it even if Cyberjoueur allowed themselves 65% of profits...and 35% back to the developers or the server...it would only make the want to make more and develop more...at least if i knew I had an uncapped commission I'd be busting my tail...
I know its a long shot but yeah..

Completly agreeing. More Developers = More Servers = More Money.
Good Post DV.

Mo money mo problems.

The fact is it would be more trouble to pay developers because then they have to hire lawyers to draw up contracts, you would have to get a lawyer and a witness to sign the contract. There are language barriers as well as location barriers for most players. They could be sued or you could it would be a big mess if anything did happen to go wrong with the payments etc.

Uh, no. You make a general purpose license agreement and have the developers agree to it. You don't need a crack squad of lawyers on call 24/7.