I am not most people, and it IS work to manage a PW...there is nothing desirable about the position or the measly power.

they provide places where cheapskate players can spend time?
How can you say such a thing? If they dont like the gold servers, they shouldnt have to pay for them, that doesnt make them cheapskates...My god I dont understand the way you think sometimes :\

I appreciate that you are not the average person, but that's not the point. Sure, you take your work more seriously. Would N-Pulse be so much worse if you were replaced with somebody less dedicated? The reality is that most Graal managers have very little positive effect on their servers (and many have a large negative effect).

A few of them don't pay because they prefer the non-gold servers. The majority don't pay because they don't want to spend the money.

Alot of them dont have the money, Kai

Sure, except that they had the money the first time. And except that it's really very very cheap.

Kai please remember that some of these players are young and their parent's have to work so, take some consideration because it's true the manager's are taken advantage of, because there aren't any good staff these day's like some staff delete level's off of the server and then quit. Now how would you like that to happen to G2k2 because that would really suck wouldn't it.

Almost all parents work, I don't see the relevance. I only said that the majority choose not to pay - I readily acknowledge that it isn't the case for everybody.

Like heck they are. They want to manage, so they pay to do so. Graal benefits to some degree, but they benefit from the presence of lots of people - popular players, skilled developers (even those who do not provide for servers), even the average forum user. Do these people all expect free subscriptions?

I think you kinda wandered from the point of the discussion a little.

Err, who said anything about giving out free subscriptions?

Some choose not to pay because they do not want the gold servers, some dont pay because they simply dont have the means to pay, and yea, some dont pay simply because they dont want to spend the money on it...it isnt fair to label peaople as cheapskates because they dont pay because there are a number of reasons as to why they dont pay.
Anyway, I apologize for the post about paying, it shouldnt have been said because it didnt exactly show all of what I meant, and I cant seem to type it out with any clarity.

They have to pay to provide their services just as you'll need to pay to manage the server. It's the same principle.

Yes, I acknowledge that all three groups exist. I merely think that the majority fall into the third category.

In my time being on Graal, since it went p2p, a lot of things changed.
Graal lost a lot of players whose parents wouldnt/couldnt pay for it.
They consider paying for an online game a waste, or they dont trust paying for things online.
Doomsday still has some trial players who because they like our server, come back everyday, get hearts, pk and have fun and leave again.
We have had such loyal players who i wouldnt dream of calling cheapskates just because their families are either disadvanted or dont believe its safe to pay for things online.
Besides i thought the forums were to discuss relevant things not to take time to insult disadvanted people who cant defend themselves here.
Of course theres always people who like backstabbing others who cant say anything in their defense isnt there.
I think NPulse's Managers do have a positive aspect that others cant put into the server, same with Doomsday.
I cant imagine anyone being as dedicated as me.
I dont care that i dont get paid, i do it because i love the server, i like to make people happy.
It's not the power or the glory (what glory??) its the pride, love, and dedication, and wanting to see something grow and improve.

<3 Tifa

As I've already stated, I have nothing against those who can't afford to pay for Graal. I'm sure they're both very nice people.

They consider paying for an online game a waste, or they dont trust paying for things online.[/b][/quote]

1) If they consider it a waste then they are exactly the type of person I'm talking about.
2) We're mostly talking about those with upgraded accounts rather than trial players here - the dedicated trial dudes are a tiny minority. And if people can trust to pay for Graal once then they can do it again.

Yeah. I bet there are hundreds of people who fall into that category.

And, if you'd spent the necessary time in school learning to read then you would see that I'm not calling them that either. If they have no means of paying then the term 'cheapskate' is obviously inapplicable. I'm talking, instead, about the majority who can pay but choose not to.

You think nobody could do your jobs better? Hah! I'm tempted to write a big long critique of your management styles but it's really not the issue here. The fact is that many servers would play their role equally well even if there were no managers at all.

As I already said, not all playerworld managers are the same. The term 'majority' is not the same as the term 'everybody'.

uncalled for :\

I disagree. If she is unwilling to spend the requisite amount of effort to read and understand my posts then she does not deserve my respect or my courtesy.

I dont give a damn who you are, or who's butt you kiss, you dont have the right to put people down or belittle them

and you would be an expert at saying "thank you" wouldn't you? I know several of your past staff who have told me that they did work for you, and NEVER got a simple 'thank you' for doing their job... so they quit in the end... maybe you'd have better staff, if you showed how gratefull you are for having them in the first place... but you didn't, and now you've lost them... that's why i never pitty you when you complain in several threads that it's 'so hard' to find good staff :rolleyes: i think that my server has a great divelopment staff, and i just got a few of my friends helping me...
===================
*back on topic*
Kai, i see your point, but i am sure you agree that graal should offer a player something (in their mind) that is worth paying for...

right now, if a player doesn't play kingdoms, or use the forums, he has no need for a p2p, right? Now, if there were more GOOD servers, that were also in the gold tab, then maybe we'd have more people paying for accounts... but untill then, there's no point in complaining about PW's, especially when they are low quality, as most are now
=x
I'd understand if the PW's were good quality... and people would rather play them, than gold servers... but that's not the case at the moment.. instead of attacking PW's, why not push for more gold servers? =)

ETD, shut up...noone asked your ungrateful back side...I tried to let staff know I was grateful, and maybe didnt often enough.
You are the most ungrateful person I know, so dont talk to me about being grateful, and I never asked for your input, nor did I say anything to you.
People like you and Kai, and various others are pushing decent people away from graal, and leaving in its place immature, under-qualified people to run these PW's. In the future, there will be nothing left but corrupt little kids to run graal because decent people simply will not stay and put up with the garbage that they have to put up with...you can all kiss each others backsides, and watch graal go down the tubes.

Yes ETD if I forgot to tell you Thank You for not doing your job and getting fired over it , "Thank You!" :rolleyes: Its always the ones who get fired for things like this who always complain about a servers Management. ETD you will find out soon enough when you manage your own PW and you just may change that old worn out tune of yours. :asleep:

Which is my aim to create a rule where PW Manager staff have to be atleast told to us, so we know whos who, and can pick up on problems like this. But it seems it looks like a bad idea from the fire burning close to my eyes. Anyhow, thats a different thread, so we sharnt talk about it here.

do you only reply when someone talks directly to you? i doubt it, this is an open forum to anyone who follows the rules, and has an upgraded account, so i see no reason why i can't make a simple reply.
*the only part of your reply that is a real reply, and not an attack on me*
yea, maybe you didn't
=0
let the pointless attacks begin :rollseyes:
who have i pushed away from graal? and what immature manager have i put into power? lol, it's like saying that people like you enslaved africans... you didn't do it, but people like you did :P
umm... right... *someone's over draumatizing things a little*
actually, i was talking about others
0.o'
mostly past LAT's, and development staff... who quit... not got fired
:\
and all i said is that you guys don't say 'thank you' to your hard working staff... so you shouldn't expect graal management to say 'thank you' to you either
lol
i know that i say thank you to my staff every time they show me their work, because i know they are doing the work on their own time, and not getting much from it
=)

Well, Mr. Goody, Goody...let's see if you can keep that up if/when your PW actually gets online, and things get busy with dealing with problems, players, etc....

forget it...as long as high staff (unmentioned) are kissing butt, things will only get worse, not better

Just like you put down and belittle me sometimes? And what are you talking about with the butt-kissing allegations? That's certainly a new one.

ETD - I have spent some time on N-Pulse, and the management there said the words 'thank you' frequently to people who were doing work when they reported the status/completion of what they were doing.

As for my opinion on playerworlds? I think they are beneficial in that they draw people into graal; most people would try out a game before paying for it (that's where the playerworlds come in), and then they pay for it to try out the pay server. That's how it went for me anyway. Other people simply stick with the playerworld they started at, and continue there. Thus, they can cause people to upgrade to classic or gold, and therefore can be beneficial.

Managing a server is often a lot of work - I've been in management roles before, and there is quite a bit of a workload. And, from what I've seen, NPulse is suffering from a lack of staff, and so the management/staff that remain have more work per person to do. Moon Goddess, for example, has herself done much work with changing graphics to png/mng lately.

what have ETD and Kai done to push people away from graal, i bet there is not one person who has stopped playing graal because of something they or someone like them did.

isnt graal a game more meant for teenagers? and if they are corrupt they own the pw let them do what they want with it, the pwa can shut em down if they get out of hand.

they dont own squat

Graal is a game meant for anybody. Their main playerbase may be teenagers, but that has nothing to do with the game's intention/direction.

Uh, if they are corrupt they should be stopped; that's first. Secondly, as has been said, they do not own the playerworld, therefore they are not free to do whatever they want. The staff must follow the rules, just like the players must follow the rules.

The 'target audience' is for a lower age. But its not 'meant' for any age group.

God, you guys are complete idiots.

You wouldn't know because you don't PLAY the classic servers. Most of the players think that gold is crappy, they prefer the old tileset, and the old game in general, and they like their "home playerworld" so they stay there. I'm like that, the only reason I pay for a VIP account is because I don't mind paying, and I like having the forums access, and being able to go talk to people on gold, and see what it looks like once in a while. Like every couple weeks. x_x.

Kaimetsu, I haven't been on the forums very long, and I already hate you. You haven't made one intelligent post yet.

People don't not buy graal because they are "cheap"..they buy it because they don't want to. And yes, there are the people, quite a few but not quite as many who can't afford it...well that's not because they're cheap, it's because they don't have the money, or a credit card, or something else. Plus, if you didn't notice, Graal isn't exactly trustworthy...have they ever set a date and made it? No. Never. Well, maybe as their 7th estimate, at least a year and a half after the first estimate....=/

Kaimetsu, it is completely ridiculous how you think the playerworlds could run themselves and would work fine without managers. Let's find out some of the problems...
-Players quit their staff positions genius. Maybe you think, oh the heads of each department would just hire new people. Hmm, don't you think there would be fights? That wouldn't really work very well...at all.
-There are events....events don't run themselves. And the events team position is the most unstable position ever, and it's close to being most important, after a while you can spar, talk, pk, and play events. It's a big thing. ETs always quit, fight, abuse power, etc.
-Nothing at all would be able to be held in check without managers. No major decisions would get made. Do you REALLY think the heads from the depts. would have meetings deciding what they want to do to improve things, etc? I doubt it. No, I don't doubt it, I'd bet my ****ing life on it. No server has ever had a team like that.
-There's a lot more **** but I just feel like posting, so I'm going to hurry up.

If what you're saying is that there needs to be no STAFF...well then I don't know..I think it's obvious why that wouldn't work. No events, no updates, no one to fix glitches and problems, no one to catch hackers, no one to hold events, etc, etc.

So, basically, the managers do a hell of a lot of work, and I'd say they bring in the vast majority of Stefan's money, because new classic players come in all the time from trial, and there are WAY more people who like and play the classic server (just check the playerlist) than the gold servers, which really suck anyway.

I completely agree with Moon Goddess on this one..as I have on most other things I've read on here. Haven't agreed with you on anything, and whoever has should be shot.

Oh, and asswipe, one more thing...NO ONE would ever become a ****ing manager for power....OKAY? Jesus christ. People manage servers for the reasons moon goddess gave..they like making something, seeing it expand, seeing people play it...it's pretty cool. Just shut the **** up already.

______________________

Anyway, here's how I think it should work. The managers do a lot for Graal, and so do the playerworlds as a whole. Therefore, they should have to pay, until they reach a certain amount of people playing it...after you get a good number of people playing your server, you shouldn't have to pay anymore, because you make up for what it costs to run the server, or bring in revenue for Graal.

I dont know who you are dorfindel, but thank you :)

You shall figure out the difference between 'nice' and 'intelligent'. Just because Kai is pretty rude to some people, he is not stupid or such.

Huh, that boggles my mind.

Not if you hired responsible people to begin with, people that are not after the power or whatever.
The task of finding those is left as an exercise to the reader...

Stop insulting hackers and get your terminology right.



You sure have some valid points, but I just wanted to comment some your post. No offense intended.

Sure, if you define 'intelligent' as 'agreeing with my viewpoint'.

The classic playerworlds can't even compare to the servers in the Gold set. Some people might prefer them, but, as I've already covered, they're in the minority.

And if they can't afford it then they can't afford it. You seem to have trouble reading so I will type this extra big:

When I refer to 'cheapskates', I am not talking about those who genuinely cannot afford it

It's not very much money, and they must've had access to a credit card when they first upgraded from trial.

Relevance?

Whereas there are no fights nowadays? Psch. The PWA could easily handle all recruitment, and the system would be far better as a result.

No, which is why there are ET people. If they quit or need to be fired, the PWA can handle it.

Do they need to be made? Most playerworlds are very rarely updated anyway, and most don't need to be updated. They're based on community rather than the steady addition of content.

The ones that also make content might. The rest do very little of worth.

And they'd play them if they were not managed too.

Haha! Have you ever even played Graal? You obviously have no idea how its players think.

There is no way in hell the PWA would be able to handle the staff =/.

Loriel, that was I typo, I meant don't buy it.

And yeah, but it's not exactly easy to find heads who are that amazingly good, and will never, ever want to quit their job or graal.

Jesus was "a" messiah. A Messiah is someone who releases us from all bad things and restore peace to the world. The Jews believe that in their year 3000 he will come and all the dead live again.

Maybe not at the moment, but it can always progress and improve.

Yes Kai lets have the PWA do it all and we can just sit back and play the Game. Nice Socialist Government you are trying to convince us all we need (shall we dig up Stalin and let him head it?). Ehh sounds more like a Socialism type setup to me where the "Government" i.e. PWA will run everything and the rest of us worker ants will just blindly follow behind. Hey why don't we set up a Queen and King for the PWA too, seems like a logical move at this point. Yea sure Kai great scheme you got there.

You're being pretty ridiculous there, MG. Servers already operate under a 'monarch' of sorts, this would be barely any different. The only real difference is that you would lose power, but I guess that's an important one to you, huh? :rolleyes:

You fail to realize, since you seem to be clouded by my sarcastic post if you take all the PWs away from Managers and into the PWA what is left? No imagination is what is left; PWs are what they are by the imagination of the person or persons molding that PW. You take that away and all you will have left is a bunch of clones following in each other’s footsteps because you have taken away the individuality of the PW. Everything will start mixing from what was the original and will be lost because they are not the ones with the total picture of what was in mind for that PW. They will interject what they think and feel, again not what the originator had in mind. Thus it will change to their perspective, and since they control all PWs a slow but sure melding of all PWs will occur.

I don't see that prospect a good one for the PWs or Graal, the game is what it is because of these individual taste. To get away from that is sure disaster for the Game. Power has nothing to do with this, maybe all you think about is power but I don't. And what Power, to do what exactly? Work haha your funny :p. We have no real power as Manager but are nothing more than a glorified peon who directs the rest of the workers with him. Yea some power trip that is :rolleyes: , would I give that up? Sure because it is nothing of value to me (the Staff and the PW is what is of value to me), the real power is in the teamwork you develop with your Staff. I am nothing more than a figurehead; my Staff holds the real power on Npulse because it is the combination of the teamwork that gets things done. This is as it should be, the "power" is spread among the Staff so each has a job to perform, each relying on the other to complete the overall picture. This friend is where the real power is on a PW, the power of trust, loyalty, teamwork and a genuine feeling for the people you work with and your PW. All of this combined is the real power of any PW not any Manager.

First of all, I did not say that all playerworlds should be taken from managers. Just that most would survive perfectly well without managers (and often perform better).

Could be worse. The reality is that many playerworlds are never updated anyway, and don't need a guiding hand. Those that are updated usually rely on the scripters to make new stuff - they build things that interest them, and then get approval from the manager(s).

No, the playerworld's staff would still control most of the creative input. The PWA wouldn't be managers, they would be overseers.

Yet just a moment ago you were claiming that managers are the very source of the creative process. You might not particularly enjoy the administrative power, but the creative power is a completely different thing.

Hmm, I don't exactly agree, but in a way I do, with Kaimetsu.

For some PWs, like my own, PWA could not possibly lead a project going in such a different direction. Considering it is a image of what I have in my mind, no other person in graal could continue managing, and creating, SA. If someone else did, it would simply become another common graal PW, or removed.

Now, for other currently active PWs, which get a small amount of players, it would be better off with PWA managing it. Because obviously the current manager is not capable of management, and progression of the playerworld.

This is exactly what I am talking about, normally a "theme" of a PW is dreamed up by one person, this person is normally the Manager. But of course the Staff can have a great influence on the direction or directions this theme will take. This can't happen if you have a unified governing body like the PWA controlling more than one PW, it will tend to stifle the creative process because they (PWA) will not be as focused on that PW as a Manager would be. Other ideas from other PWs will eventually creep into the picture whether on purpose or not and will tend to blend the PWs is what I am saying, because of lack of focus.