How many failed revivals have there been?

It's not about what I want. I don't think the outcome of this disagreement will affect me in any significant way, no matter what happens. But that doesn't mean I'm unqualified to say what would be best for Graal as a whole.

And you arrived at this conclusion because I agree with him on a matter? Fine. Konidias is your friend, and therefore you are biased.

Do yourself a favor and dispense with the ad hominems.

Konidias couldn't do any better. Viva la' Lance.

Theres no need to flame me. I am merely saying you make no justified statements of Lance doing anything good for the server. You just poke around it by saying no one would be better. You're doing this to save a friends job which I can respect, but NOTHING IS BEING DONE. My God, this is ridiculous. Why the hell does Lance even want the job still?

It's fine if Tseng doesn't want to hand over 2k1 to me. I won't fight it unless he feels it would benefit 2k1 for him to step down, which apparently he doesn't. If he thinks he can bring back 2k1, then he is more than happy to try.

I will try and talk to Stefan and possibly get something set up (and his permission of course) to work on my own variation of the server. In truth, I'm not sure what has changed on 2k1 since Tseng took over, and there might be some decent stuff there that I had no part in making. So it's only fair for him to keep what is there and release it at his own time.

I've already started (at least with some graphic concepts) for the new 2k1 I have planned. I'll probably focus mainly on revamping the graphics first off, as that's a major element to the revision I'd like to see. I'm questioning as to whether or not this could be seen as a "2k1" project, and be allowed it's own forum in this area. Not because I feel I deserve such a thing, but because 2k1 was such a large part of Graal, that it would be easier for me to recieve input towards my version of the server in a seperated forum, than to not know whether to ask for input here, or on the playerworld forums.

Also I think Kaimetsu's complaint that nobody should be given a shot at reviving 2k1 as it would "poison the nostalgia", is sort of silly. You can't destroy the past by bringing it back and changing it. It's like... Michael Jackson might be an oddball today, and a lot of people dislike him... but they don't argue that his old music wasn't good. A child star could be loved by millions when they were a child, and a total loser when they grow up, but people will still remember them in their glory days.

Same thing with 2k1. It's already been dragged through the mud and yet I still yearn for the days when Stefan was still working on it, and it was a lot more simplistic. It just seems like a poor excuse to me. That is my opinion, and I'd rather not have Kaimetsu try to own me with his superior mind. I don't want to debate about it, nor do I have the posting ability to do so. I can't possibly achieve much arguing only being able to post once per day. So with that being said... the arguements can cease now. Kaimetsu doesn't hold the final word in anything so there is really no point in proving anything to him.

I'm not going to push for Tseng's removal, I'm just giving him a chance to step down from something that he doesn't seem to be enjoying. If he'd rather continue with his project, then so be it.

Zero? Should Kyden and I have stayed staff on Graal2001, just to sit in RC and talk to eachother. We can do that on AIM if we wanted to. You were never there.

I don't know about the other peoples reasons good enough to start quoting them, but didn't scott leave because nothing was going on? Shadowless wanted money to keep working?

Personnel problem with you never being around maybe? Problem with you unable to do your manager duties?

When did I flame you? I accused you of employing ad hominems but that's about it.

That might be because the development is behind closed doors? Again: If you want to show that somebody else is the superior candidate then the burden of proof is on you.

And you're doing this to put a friend in power, which I can't respect.

Do you see? Do you understand yet? You don't know my motives.

No, but you can change the people's attitudes to it.

Do you deny that the child abuse fiascos have affected how people see his music, through negative association?

Besides, that's not even a valid comparison. You're talking about devaluing art because of the actions of the artist, whereas this matter is about devaluing a game because of what it turned into.

As a better example: What if a great and popular TV show started going downhill? What if its producers started churning out cheap and low-quality episodes? Would that not tarnish the reputation it had, and make people feel less fond of the series as a whole?

Technicly only one. But it was dead and/or dying for a long time besides that.

I don't think that was a real question..

But I'd agree with Kaimetsu, although I too don't think Lance is such a good manager (due to his lack of time), I don't think there are any better managers available at the moment, managers who won't do what Kai talked about.

Well, I can see what you're saying but that doesn't mean that the show was crappy for it's entire run... It's all a matter of opinion in which some people may still love it for it once was and continue to watch it because of it's intial impact on them. These people are called diehard fans, and they can be found in anything. This is not to say that there can be enough fans to keep the shows production going, it really all matters on the situation and that's not the point of my post. This whole topic is about the way people percieve things. You can't change the way a person looks at a situation, you can only show them how you see it and it is up to them to see it themselves that way. Therefore, you simply cannot change other people's opinions yourself, it's up to them. So I really find this little debate worthless, going back and forth saying whether or not Konidias should take control over 2k1. If he does his own version of the server just to see what he would do, that would in no way whatsoever change the way 2k1 used to be. There is no harm in him doing such a thing, as there is no harm in anybody else making their own version of any server they wanted to, just as long as they give credit where credit is due. If nobody likes it, then there is no real harm done to anybody. I say if somebody wants to do something reproductive (not saying that Lance isn't doing anything, I have no clue of what's going on) you should let them, it's at least worth seeing something different. Differences are what make the world interesting.

Nor am I saying that it was. In fact, I explicitly stated the converse.

What an utterly meaningless and fallacious distinction. If you elicit a change in a person then you were the instigator of the change - in effect, you forcibly altered their opinion. That's what causality is about.

But in any case, what does it matter? How does the distinction actually change anything? what's the relevance?

What, we should just roll some dice instead? Base on chance instead of reason?

Nor did anybody say that it would. Stop arguing against imaginary points.

Do you believe that everybody should be given the opportunity to remake the server? Yes? No? If not, why is Konidias special? And how would you establish the distinction if not through debate?

Haha! That's a very progressive attitude, but I'm not sure how it's relevant here ;)

I should have worded it differently. I never meant to say that you did say that, it was just an example.

You aren't seeing my point here, yes you were the instigator of the change but in the end it's the person that made themselves change because they wanted to.

Exactly, what is all of this posting going to decide? Who thinks who's better at something and try to convince others of the same? That doesn't mean that they will be chosen.

No, quit mocking my opinions, I never did to any of yours. It's just that this is pointless as it ultimately isn't up to us who decides who gets assigned to be a manager of a server. If it is, that's news to me.

Nor did I say that anybody said that. It isn't an imaginary point if it's a point I thought of and didn't post on here.

I'm believe that if somebody wants to edit something for fun/educational/whatever purposes, they shouldn't be denied the right to do so. Of course you would have to have a debate, but I'm simply wondering why the public is debating over it if they aren't the ones involved in the decision-making process? (Once again, if they are, then it's news to me.)

Well, that's your opinion and you're open to that. ;)

Your 'point' relies on an arbitrary division of causality. I'm simply pointing that out.

Uh, no. That's not what I asked. You drew a line between forcibly altering a person's perspective and persuading them to alter it themselves. What's the point? Given that nobody was attempting or professing to do the former, what can you hope to prove?

So you think people should avoid debating on topics that they can't directly influence? We should all stop discussing theology, for example? And politics?

I really don't think you can describe that as mockery.

The players have an influence, albeit usually not a direct one. See above.

...then stop arguing against points that you thought of and didn't post on here? Saying that Konidias' actions can't change the past is not particularly helpful. What is it supposed to prove? Do you think some people were in doubt as to whether or not he could bend the laws of spacetime? If that's not the case then your statement is mundane to the point of worthlessness.

Why? Why should Cyberjoueurs give servers to everybody that wants to play 2K1 manager? Is it in their interests or are you appealing to some higher code of conduct here?

I don't think you understand ;)

I dont see why you argue about something you don't care about Kai. If you're so much more intelligent thena ll of us why do you spend your time on the graal forums arguing for any damn reason against anyone? Just something I've wondered about.

I can asnswer that. He finds the forums entertaining..at least he said so awhile back somewhere.

Kai doesn't want 2K1 to be brought back.

Why should he have any say whatsoever in it? As far as I can tell he didn't do much for the server and wasn't active enough of a player for his needs to be answered. He is active on the forums, not in game. 2k1 and the forums don't link together. He should have no say in what happens.

Kai made fireworks and things. Just what did you make?

He said, "do much for the server and wasn't active enough of a player."

I would consider Brad an active enough player in 2k1's past to be included.

I'm not doubting that, I'm just saying that Kai contributed more to 2K1 than Brad or most people.

I said that I don't care about the outcome. The argument itself is interesting, though.

Regardless: You're continuing to use ad hominems. This whole "YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE SERVER SO UR WRONG" theme. It's idiotic. If you can't address the points I made then you should stay out of the argument.

I also pioneered the whole minimessage thing. Y'know, where you get a little message at the bottom of your screen instead of having a script modify your chat text.

I kind of made the fireworks thing before I started working on 2K1, but I guess I let them use it.

I fixed a lot of bugs, too. Even added the bug report system.

Hm, what else? Metris, I guess? And I scripted stuff for RP events, like the fire on the pirate ship.

Kai, I don't feel like arguing for hours on an online game forum. I've noticed recently as well that when you have nothing to say you the flame the other person to make it seem like you're smarter than they are. You call me idiotic for what reason? Every point I've made you've come back with a flame towards me or some random bull**** I'm not spending 20 minutes to read.

Also!

So a whole bunch of useless crap which noone used you made, right? Fireworks WOW THEY WERE A HIT. Metris was fun for about a week. The bug report system could have been scripted by Googi.

And to Googi: Scripting and making levels doesnt determine how much you contributed to a server. The server was based around the kingdoms for a while. I lead every kingdom at some point or was 2nd in command in every single one. I had like 3000 total hours on all my accounts. I hosted more events then anyone on that server ever did. Remember the trainer where everyone was going fast and running over walls? Yeah, I found that and turned it in. My little GSF thing which was fun for a few months. My 2 failure kingdoms which even though failed made an impact. I can go on if you want?

Yeah but it would have only worked offline.

Yeah it does. It isn't the only thing, sure, but it is important.

I'm not doubting that you've contributed things, just not as much as Kai. Don't forget a lot of scripters on 2K1 got advice from Kai. His influence is immeasurable.

I doubt you were the first to do so seeing as it was pretty widespread.

When I contributed the trainer I was bugs admin at the time so i actually got to talk to steve.

Look, I am tired of arguing with people I just want 2k1 back im done.

:/

Brad is trying to help 2k1 here, obviously he cares about it and wants to see it be online and fun again.

Why are you even arguing with him. He doesn't have any bad motives or anything.


It seems like Konidias is willing to work hard on 2k1 and spend a lot of time working on it too, why not let him take stabs at making it fun again. No one else is right now.

That's all that I'm trying to say, but of course every single thing I post has to be analyzed, I'm done posting here. It's pointless to even post anything anymore about this topic seeing as it's mostly turned into a flame war. Which is the point I was making.

Yeah, yeah. And you still don't know what an ad hominem is or why you shouldn't use them.

Uh. I didn't. This is the problem, Brad. You don't listen.

I shrug. The minimessage thing was pretty important. In any case, I was only there for a couple of months.

Thing is, the guy who was manager at the time didn't give me any projects, so I just did stuff that was fun. Think you can guess who it was?

So what have you contributed to the server, besides your undesirable presence?

But did you do it maturely or competently?

That just means you subjected others to your obnoxiousness for a really long time.

Etc, etc.

Nobody's denying that you had an effect on the server, Brad. It's just not been established that it was a positive one.

You're more hated in the graal community then I'll ever be Kai. Don't try to say that my presence isn't wanted around. YOURS isn't. You join every thread in a pathetic attempt at proving to the 14 year olds on the forum that YOU ARE SUPERIOR TO THEM~!@! It's really really pathetic. Atleast 50% of the forums think you're just a complete ass but they dont have the balls to say it. Go get a job or something, please. Hanging around online with teenagers just isn't what it used to be.

What the hell?

Haha. Regardless of whether or not your unimaginative retort actually bears any truth, it isn't relevant. You claimed to have had a positive influence on 2K1, and I am challenging that statement. Your cute little attempts at insulting me won't change anything.

I don't flame people or start arguments with people for no reason. I have reason for everything I do. I could care less if you like me or not you don't even know if you're a guy or girl for christ's sake.

And a positive effect you say?

Well, I've had 3 playerhouse levels made, started some wars in kingdoms which provided activity for players for months, fixed a few bugs as bugs admin, gave away 1000's and 1000's of gralets as events admin, I can go on but I think I've proved my point ace.

Are you saying Kai does?

I don't hate you.

I know.

Why jump into a topic and debate for fun against KIDS who actually care about something. If he doesnt care about the future of 2k1 why should he argue about it?

Fun is a reason.

Cool, me too. Presumably you do not like my reasons? But what makes you think that I like yours?

Hahaha. And you were the one that said: "I've noticed recently as well that when you have nothing to say you the flame the other person"?

Wow. I bet they entertained the masses for hours. It's a miracle that you were there to exercise your unique ability to make houses.

About how much skill did that take? In other words: If you didn't do it, wouldn't somebody else?

Haha! Like hell you did, dude. How would you fix bugs?

Given your record of scamming and power abuse, I don't think it's difficult to guess where those gralats came from.

Just for kicks, find that record of scamming and power abuse. I never had enough power to use that to gain money. Nice try though skipper. And if you want to attack my accomplishments, ah I can hit ya right back. Metris was a waste of time considering no one used it after a week. People were still in my sparring league after a week Kai. +1 for brad!!!!! Fireworks I don't think were ever a big hit. I can never remember myself buying them...ever. Oh, and please let me gather a crowd to give you a round of applause for making a system at the bottom of the screen which would get spammed if you did certain things and do nothing for you but tell you what you picked up. Thanks, now if I get trashed out of my mind and press random buttons I can look at the bottom of the screen to see what I did! Oh, and I can flame Googi because he/she/it is weird. Thats how I roll.

Come on Kai, I expect you to know what you're talking about when arguing. You're unbeatable, aren't you? Come on please comeback with saying what I said is idiotic and completely dropping them. I notice thats what you do when you have nothing to say. Looking forward to arguing more with you, dad!

You expect me to trawl through thousands of posts and find a few ancient references, just to prove what everybody already knows? No. I'm content to let my statement be evaluated as it is.

I scripted Metris because it was fun. Letting other people use it was secondary.

And, obviously, your estimate is ridiculous. But that goes without saying.

Indeed? We had a little counter on the shop script that kept track of how many had been sold. In all, the server spent tens of thousands of gralats on them.

I'm honestly not sure why, but that's besides the point. Again, the fireworks were just something I scripted for fun. They weren't originally supposed to go online.

Is it not an improvement over the ridiculous 'setplayerprop #c' method?

Oh, not at all. But you have two distinct disadvantages here:
1) You're in the wrong, and thus have to convince people to hold unfounded beliefs.
2) You're extremely stupid.

I really don't think you're gonna overcome both of those, but it's still funny to watch.

Dropping them? I've responded to every point you've made here, kiddo. I've even quoted them all individually so that I'm forced to operate within context and nothing gets left out. You, meanwhile, just quote the entire post and then write some rambling diatribe that bears little relation to the things I've said. If you wanna talk about selective blindness then how about these:

1) You never answered my question about who was manager at the time when I worked on 2K1.
2) You never explained exactly how a technically-inept troglodyte like you would "fix" bugs. Debugging isn't just a hit-it-with-a-club kind of thing. You actually have to know stuff, and that's hardly your specialty.

Well, I had access to debug to GK even when I wasn't a kingdom leader so i must have known how to do something! Oh yeah, I made Stefan's template island for GK. Ahh, darn forgot. Koni was the manager when you worked for 2k1, I'm aware. As was birdbird. Can't put all the blame on him. Look, I don't know why I'm even arguing here. It's not accomplishing anything. You don't want 2k1 to be put in his hands, I do. I just want a revival where things get accomplished and you can't say theres enough being done now because there isn't. And once again you proved my point of calling me extremely stupid. I'm doing something with my life so I can't be too dumb. I don't sit on here arguing with kids 5 years younger than me. Ciao.

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No ****. x_x

You're aware that 2K1 and GK are different servers, right?

Konidias never gave me any projects. None at all. If you want to say that you don't like the things I made then you're gonna have to hold him responsible for that too.

Haha. I called you stupid in addition to countering your points. And what's so wrong with that? You've attacked me at least as much in this thread.

And what exactly are you doing with your life? Please elaborate so we can point and laugh.