You're welcome, Eurocenter

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

We are paying to develop content for Graal. We get no money from the content we make.


Sure it's legal for them to do this, but it's hardly a good model. It means that all the skilled developers will leave because they aren't getting anything out of this deal. It also just generally annoys everyone because it smells like a scam. This isn't theoretical, it's really what happens (proof: look at the this thread and the dozens like it before, and then look at how fast staff disappear from servers after only short stays).

That's pretty succinct. End of day, Graal needs an incentive program for developers.

[DustyPorViva]

You know, usually when engine providers make you pay for development tools it's so you can sell your work commercially. Not only do we not get a single cent, but they take our work and make a profit off of it.

[fowlplay4]

I don't think I would have developed for Graal as long as I have had I had to actually pay to do so.

[skillmaster19]

If you are a scripter and hate reading, skip to the bottom.

All of the experienced developers should all suddenly stop developing for Graal, especially those working on mobile and facebook servers. There aren't that many amazing scripters left on Graal, maybe 10-20 at most. Then Stefan will be forced to script everything himself, "hire" inexperienced developers, or speak with Unixmad to actually give developers some kind of incentive. Facebook Graal is going to be huge, and with the huge income from iPhone, he should easily be able to hire & pay the best of the best developers to work on the mobile and Facebook version of Classic. I am sure most of them would work a few hours a day for a little extra money, not being paid as full time jobs, but paid for completing specific projects. There are plenty of decent LAT's, so that won't be a problem. Even if there isn't, Stefan could easily announce level development to the public and offer admin positions to people who master level development, it really only takes a few weeks to learn.(few days to learn, few weeks to actually tile right)
Thousands of iPhone players would be willing to make graphics just to be an admin on the server, so that won't need paying either. However, scripting requires several months to learn and years of experience to master.

TO SCRIPTERS:
We need to organize a day for us all to stop scripting all at once. There aren't that many great scripters on Graal, so it won't be that difficult. I do not consider myself an amazing scripter, don't think I am trying to sound like me stopping scripting will do anything. However, many others quitting will help.


To Players:
If you are a Gold subscription, don't renew, and stefan will see that graal needs to go fully free to play and not just removed observer mode. Zodiac and Era already added gelat shops, why should they still have limited heads?
I understand this is difficult, but it may help in graal becoming free to play forever.

If you are a classic subscription, don't bother quitting as Stefan isn't making any more money off of you, other than you raising the playercount,thus attracting more players.

If you are a trial and for some reason on the forums, don't subscribe. Graal will likely become free to play soon and your gelats will likely only become good for in game cash shops.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by skillmaster19

TO SCRIPTERS:
We need to organize a day for us all to stop scripting all at once. There aren't that many great scripters on Graal, so it won't be that difficult. I do not consider myself an amazing scripter, don't think I am trying to sound like me stopping scripting will do anything. However, many others quitting will help.

Stefan will be continuing at his own pace with whatever is the priority project regardless of something like this. The only people that would suffer from this is players as it will only be delaying already rare updates, which some developers are quite eager to complete, others are paying for the ability do create them. Though one day isn't really going to be significant anyway.

I think it's important that people continue to discuss positive ways forward rather than ways to conspire against upper management or protest, it might seem like this type of discussion is ultimately ignored but even Stefan has hinted at this possibility of incentives in the past.

[fowlplay4]

I'm sure they'd rather pay the commissioned artists (the people making their iPhone graphics and websites) and so forth than pay some of the talented people in the community.

Plain and simple like Stephen said: Developers need incentive.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

Sure it's legal for them to do this, but it's hardly a good model.

Yeah, a model such as this will never work. It's not a perfect example, but there are still undeniable comparisons.

And, you guys need to quit saying that you make content for Eurocenter. That has never been the case. You've made content for friends, strangers, and mostly yourself. You are using Graal's tools to upload content to Graal's servers.

Could there be more updates for developers? Should their be more appreciation for the developers? Sure. But, you're all fully capable of deciding if the money is worth the enjoyment/effort you put in.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Mykel

And, you guys need to quit saying that you make content for Eurocenter. That has never been the case. You've made content for friends, strangers, and mostly yourself. You are using Graal's tools to upload content to Graal's servers.

This isn't entirely true. Not everybody develops just for their own or their friends enjoyment, some do aspire to make money for them self through their work being sold by Eurocenter, and I can vouch that Graal management is willing to negotiate something which suits both sides.
You also have to consider that work is being sold regardless of the intention of its author, and that more often than not this is a form of graphic, a product not of Graal's development tools, nor are they necessarily being uploaded through a development tool (RC).

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Mykel

And, you guys need to quit saying that you make content for Eurocenter. That has never been the case. You've made content for friends, strangers, and mostly yourself. You are using Graal's tools to upload content to Graal's servers.

This is where you're wrong. Developers and players alike have been shafted over and over throughout the years. Some developers DO do it to try to help Graal, to keep Graal interested and alive, and more importantly to give other players something to enjoy. This is what the whole thread is about. Not every developer is alike, but I know a lot of developers out there that do it for others, not for Graal or for themselves.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

This isn't entirely true. Not everybody develops just for their own or their friends enjoyment, some do aspire to make money for them self through their work being sold by Eurocenter, and I can vouch that Graal management is willing to negotiate something which suits both sides.
You also have to consider that work is being sold regardless of the intention of its author, and that more often than not this is a form of graphic, a product not of Graal's development tools, nor are they necessarily being uploaded through a development tool (RC).

If you are seriously trying to make any sort of money through graal development, you're kind of crazy. Unless of course you make a proposition directly with Graal management. But, doing little side projects that never materialize doesn't really mean much.

The servers that actually have actively used content have always been made for the players and no one else. Players have always demanded and complained about lack of content from the staff (see: other players). How many of you, while creating content, are doing it for the better of Graal (aside from gold server developers)?

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

This is where you're wrong. Developers and players alike have been shafted over and over throughout the years. Some developers DO do it to try to help Graal, to keep Graal interested and alive, and more importantly to give other players something to enjoy. This is what the whole thread is about. Not every developer is alike, but I know a lot of developers out there that do it for others, not for Graal or for themselves.

This thread kind of proves that most developers don't have Graal's interest at heart, but their own. That isn't a bad thing. Players should always hold their own money, support, and related interests above that of the game, but you're playing both sides of the coin here, dusty.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Mykel

If you are seriously trying to make any sort of money through graal development, you're kind of crazy. Unless of course you make a proposition directly with Graal management. But, doing little side projects that never materialize doesn't really mean much.

I'm not saying that myself or anybody else is seriously expecting to make some form of significant income through Graal, it should be thought of as more of a bonus or reward on-top of ones normal intentions, plus I don't think it's unfair for anybody to hope for a cut in the hypothetical event of their work directly making a significant amount of money for Graal.

Originally Posted by Mykel

The servers that actually have actively used content have always been made for the players and no one else. Players have always demanded and complained about lack of content from the staff (see: other players). How many of you, while creating content, are doing it for the better of Graal (aside from gold server developers)?

I would say that this only right to a certain extent.
It may not be someone's primary intention to better Graal through their work, but quite often this will be a secondary or tertiary intention. As an example a personal hope of mine is that Classic will help better Graal's ability to accommodate genuinely new players.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Mykel

How many of you, while creating content, are doing it for the better of Graal (aside from gold server developers)?

I consider myself one. When I worked on something I did it so players would enjoy it. If I didn't finish it I made sure other developers could have it so maybe it would make their jobs a little easier and maybe players would still get to enjoy something new.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Mykel

Yeah, a model such as this will never work. It's not a perfect example, but there are still undeniable comparisons.

And no one said Graal was 100% imperfect. Just that they are major kinks.

Originally Posted by Mykel

And, you guys need to quit saying that you make content for Eurocenter. That has never been the case. You've made content for friends, strangers, and mostly yourself. You are using Graal's tools to upload content to Graal's servers.

I think this is just semantics.

One of the realities is this: I make content, and it goes on their servers. They have full rights, and are free to copy it, drop a price tag on it, and sell it to other people with not a dime back to me. This exact thing has happened, in fact. (It wasn't my work, but it was other players's work, so the point still holds.)


Of course, I have agreed to this deal, and it is fully legal, no disagreement there. But why would they do this? It certainly isn't drawing a good image of them, and it certainly is scaring a lot of talented people away. It is also the source of a lot of negativity in the game, due to how mixed the developers and players are.

[oo_jazz_oo]

The system of "You pay us to make stuff, we sell it, you get nothing" will only work for so long...
Look at Graal development now. Theres not much going on...maybe with a few servers, but as a whole, nothing is happening. UN is a pretty good example of that.

Once the developers get tired, and once there aren't any more good developers, what is Stefan going to do? Re-re-release classic as another server? Oh wait, hes doing that already.

The least Stefan could do is give us adequate development tools. -_-
They charge us to make them content, dont give us proper tools, then charge us to play.
If they dont want to give a cut of the money to developers, couldnt they at least help us make content?

They throw some 10 year old tools at us, then take the content we make with them, slap em on a new platform, and re-sell it.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

=Of course, I have agreed to this deal, and it is fully legal, no disagreement there. But why would they do this? It certainly isn't drawing a good image of them, and it certainly is scaring a lot of talented people away. It is also the source of a lot of negativity in the game, due to how mixed the developers and players are.

Why complain now? This has been going on for about a decade now, on and increasing scale, yet this is the first universally agreed upon "Stefan/Unix are leeches" debates.

Nothing major has changed, other than them charging to upload shields. Remember when they decided to charge you to play certain servers? And, then charge you to play classic servers. And, then take away the "lifetime classic" subscription?

You've been paying money to upload (use the tools, same thing) in one way or another for years now.

Originally Posted by oo_jazz_oo

They charge us to make them content, dont give us proper tools, then charge us to play.

Because, that is the game! That is what Graal is! For the past 5 years or so, I would imagine that like 50% of the playerbase was involved in development somewhere or another. And, that's probably low balling it.

They are charging you for the game. You aren't doing graal any favors. You're making something for yourself and your friends. Does graal, in some way or another, benefit from that? Yes. That's the give and take.