Preview: Tomb Quest Preparation

[maximus_asinus]

I think you might be relying too heavily on players reading. I found the book but once I realized it wasn't rat form I skipped through all the pages without reading.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I think you might be relying too heavily on players reading. I found the book but once I realized it wasn't rat form I skipped through all the pages without reading.

I wouldn't say that reading the book is crucial to defeating it, but it would make better sense of it.

[BigBear3]

Thor. I love you

[maximus_asinus]

I think the most confusing part to me was there being rooms where I had to kill all the baddies for a key. In Zelda they basically told you to kill the baddies because they'd lock you in a room with a few baddies inside and it would just click "I should kill these guys". Classic does not do this, and with there being rooms with baddies and no keys a player cannot discern whether or not they should be killing baddies at all, and they shouldn't have to kill all the baddies in every room they walk into just to find out.

[xnervNATx]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I think the most confusing part to me was there being rooms where I had to kill all the baddies for a key. In Zelda they basically told you to kill the baddies because they'd lock you in a room with a few baddies inside and it would just click "I should kill these guys". Classic does not do this, and with there being rooms with baddies and no keys a player cannot discern whether or not they should be killing baddies at all, and they shouldn't have to kill all the baddies in every room they walk into just to find out.

hm

[DustyPorViva]

Nice use of moving platforms + pulling switch.

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I think the most confusing part to me was there being rooms where I had to kill all the baddies for a key. In Zelda they basically told you to kill the baddies because they'd lock you in a room with a few baddies inside and it would just click "I should kill these guys". Classic does not do this, and with there being rooms with baddies and no keys a player cannot discern whether or not they should be killing baddies at all, and they shouldn't have to kill all the baddies in every room they walk into just to find out.

Actually most of the 2D Zelda games did not do this. However, Link's Awakening would usually leave a tile in the room that indicated a key was going to fall there, as well as the compass played a noise whenever you could obtain a key in the room when you entered it.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I think the most confusing part to me was there being rooms where I had to kill all the baddies for a key. In Zelda they basically told you to kill the baddies because they'd lock you in a room with a few baddies inside and it would just click "I should kill these guys". Classic does not do this, and with there being rooms with baddies and no keys a player cannot discern whether or not they should be killing baddies at all, and they shouldn't have to kill all the baddies in every room they walk into just to find out.

I did actually consider having to kill all rats in some of the levels mandatory.
Potential problems then however would be that the quest could become too much harder + more annoying with them respawning but possibly too much easier without them respawning, I think it works fine provided there is some indication that a key can be obtained:


(plus maybe the fact there is a locked door contained in that level)

[Luda]

Originally Posted by xnervNATx

hm

Is this from your walktrout?

[DustyPorViva]

My opinion on linear dungeons is that you should have a direction for the player, but give them the illusion they are making choices. If you make dungeons too open-ended then it simply confuses the player and that can lead to frustration. But if you make it too obviously linear then that makes the player feel bored because they feel controlled. However, laying out a clear path and direction, yet masking it with a few open rooms and choices can give the player the impression they are choosing their path while you're still defining the direction they go. Also, backtracking is also a very important part here. If the player is always going forward then it's quite clear that they're being guided. But if they have to backtrack between areas they've been then they lose focus on the fact that there is a clear path and focus more on trying to remember the layout.

All in all, you can see this kind of thing all over Zelda dungeons. You enter a dungeon, and you are given a few paths. You can take either path, but eventually you will end up going back to the main room because one end results in a treasure of sorts. Either a map, compass or a key. They you have to backtrack and go the other way. This leads the player deeper into the dungeon. Eventually the player may even go around in a circle, cleverly linking the layout in some way. This is always a good feeling, to feel like the dungeon isn't just one direction. Throw in a few secret rooms to pull the player away from the main path(bombable walls, or paths that simply lead to minor prizes... or even paths that aren't accessible until the player comes back with a new weapon, this is ALWAYS great). All in all, it ends up being an experience that clearly has one way to tackle it(you will always get the exact number of keys that need to be used exactly as intended) but lets the player feel like they're in control.

[DustyPorViva]

Alright, a little example of my post above(sorry for the double post).

Here I took the first(sort of) dungeon in Link to the Past and I drew out the path an inexperienced player may take their first time through the dungeon. This doesn't account for being lost, or not remembering the way. It simply accounts for the player exploring the various paths that can be taken since they don't know the way. Oh ya, it's also only the first floor of the dungeon.

As you can see, even though the dungeon actually has one actual path to complete the dungeon, the path the player take constantly intertwines and revisits areas. They keep seeing the same rooms, even if not in the same way(such as walking under the floor they were just on). The player never feels like they're going in a straight line, even though in the end they did exactly as the developers wanted.

Sorry for the large file.

? = the player has reached a dead end, but may still be rewarded
:o = the player has noticed something that has intrigued them and tries to remember it
! = player was rewarded with something important

[ffcmike]

This may not be as clear as Dusty's example but I think it's on similar lines to what he's describing:

[Kamaeru]

Thanks Dusty.

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Actually most of the 2D Zelda games did not do this. However, Link's Awakening would usually leave a tile in the room that indicated a key was going to fall there, as well as the compass played a noise whenever you could obtain a key in the room when you entered it.

It certainly does do this, maybe I didn't explain it quite clearly but what I was trying to explain is done repeatedly in LttP. First example I can think of on the top of my head is in the castle in the beginning. You pass into a room with a blue guard inside and the door locks behind you. I think you get the boomerang and after killing the guard you get a key.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

I did actually consider having to kill all rats in some of the levels mandatory.
Potential problems then however would be that the quest could become too much harder + more annoying with them respawning but possibly too much easier without them respawning, I think it works fine provided there is some indication that a key can be obtained:


(plus maybe the fact there is a locked door contained in that level)

Again I think you rely too much on reading. I passed by a few NPCs like that one dead guy and got into a habit of just skipping through the text. But my biggest complaint about this very room is that there is a locked door and when I entered this room I already had a key so I didn't expect to have to find another key in that same room. Would have made sense to put the key in an off to the side room.

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

All in all, you can see this kind of thing all over Zelda dungeons. You enter a dungeon, and you are given a few paths. You can take either path, but eventually you will end up going back to the main room because one end results in a treasure of sorts. Either a map, compass or a key. They you have to backtrack and go the other way. This leads the player deeper into the dungeon. Eventually the player may even go around in a circle, cleverly linking the layout in some way. This is always a good feeling, to feel like the dungeon isn't just one direction. Throw in a few secret rooms to pull the player away from the main path(bombable walls, or paths that simply lead to minor prizes... or even paths that aren't accessible until the player comes back with a new weapon, this is ALWAYS great). All in all, it ends up being an experience that clearly has one way to tackle it(you will always get the exact number of keys that need to be used exactly as intended) but lets the player feel like they're in control.

This is what I meant earlier, Dusty did a better job at explaining.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

It certainly does do this, maybe I didn't explain it quite clearly but what I was trying to explain is done repeatedly in LttP. First example I can think of on the top of my head is in the castle in the beginning. You pass into a room with a blue guard inside and the door locks behind you. I think you get the boomerang and after killing the guard you get a key.

Yes, it does do this, but not all the time. Just because a few instances does it does not mean that it always applies. For example in the sewers just after that the only way to get a key is to kill a single rat in a large room with about 10 rats and 5 bats. It never indicates there is a key, it doesn't shut you in, the room is dark, and there are I think 2 open doors and a locked door. I can't think of an exact instance where you have to kill all the enemies to get a key without the doors locking, but I'm sure there are a few instances(sadly I don't have the entire Zelda franchise memorized, only most of it.

[Kiwi27]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Wonder who this is .

http://www.onrpg.com/boards/63561.html
Googled it and found that.

Quest looks cool, Thor