Playercount at an all time low

[Distorted]

Perhaps this is due to the lack of a 'Classic' themed server, or due to terrible management/the killing of players home servers; but it's no secret that PC Graal is dying entirely.

I know it's basically meaningless to post an idea here, and will almost never be considered by the higher-ups, but the client looks pretty desperate, and, "3D Era" is the worst idea I've actually ever heard Graal-related.

Allow access to some of the iServers from the client, the users will see the client's availability and that it's wayy smoother than the flash browsers, flock over and possibly check out the other servers (if they haven't already)

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Distorted

That screenshot is largely owed to the time of visit, but the sentiment certainly rings true. PC Graal is a small pond in which the water is slowly but surely evaporating away.

Originally Posted by Distorted

Allow access to some of the iServers from the client, the users will see the client's availability and that it's wayy smoother than the flash browsers, flock over and possibly check out the other servers (if they haven't already)

If it were to mean that I no longer had to listen to lame, half-arsed, pathetic, bullshit excuses such as "having two Classics on Facebook might confuse players", and that Graal administration were instead honorable enough to fulfill their agreements, then that's absolutely fine by me.

[kia345]

Classic and Graal: the Adventure

problem solved, now fix it

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by kia345

Classic and Graal: the Adventure

problem solved, now fix it

Funnily enough that was the one and only condition that was originally asked from me.

[xAndrewx]

I don't understand why people still aspire to develop a PC server. iOS servers can be accessed through PC - so why not make one? (staff)

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

I don't understand why people still aspire to develop a PC server. iOS servers can be accessed through PC - so why not make one?

I don't believe anyone worth their salt is attempting to develop a PC-only server at the moment? The concerns echo'ing around these forums lately are more to do with reversing the slow downward spiral of existing PC servers, which will otherwise likely go extinct.

Higher-ups may well see PC Graal as purely a development platform, but being a development platform goes hand in hand with it also being a game. If you take away the game, you take away the incentive for the majority of developers.

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

I don't believe anyone worth their salt is attempting to develop a PC-only server at the moment? The concerns echo'ing around these forums lately are more to do with reversing the slow downward spiral of existing PC servers, which will otherwise likely go extinct.

Higher-ups may well see PC Graal as purely a development platform, but being a development platform goes hand in hand with it also being a game. If you take away the game, you take away the incentive for the majority of developers.

This is what I don't understand- why aren't the PC servers working on moving to the iOS platform? I've seen no development from any classic servers, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think that PC Graal should be heavily focused on a development platform with staff access to design worlds. Keep the existing server structure where you can buy hosting and visit the playerworlds in development- however I wouldn't advertise it as a platform you can play on.

If I'm honest- the Development side of the iOS servers aren't heading in a downwards spiral. On a side note- every Development Admin that's been on iEra (3-5 people max) have all originated from the iOS community. Maybe it's the lack of enthusiasm on the PC staff to develop a server that only 15~ people play? Which leads me back to my original statement- why aren't they developing to become an iOS server?

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Sorry- I read your other post after and deleted the second part of my post.

In that case I've edited out my response.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

--Side note: I manage iEra- I've not played a classic server in 3/4 years; It's not my remit.

While it may have been several years ago now, you've played Graal the Adventure's quests that were released at the time, so I'm sure you're aware that the server is both unique and a potential asset to Graal.

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

In that case I've edited out my response.



While it may have been several years ago now, you've played Graal the Adventure's quests that were released at the time, so I'm sure you're aware that the server is both unique and a potential asset to Graal.

Yes- I really liked it. Why not make it unique more by adding a level system? If you can design it to be something similar to Classic but a whole new type of game I can't see why it would be declined. Unfortunately, that would probably involve a new tileset - so in theory a new game linked with Classic but not... I guess you either change or live with the fact it won't be an iOS server.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

This is what I don't understand- why aren't the PC servers working on moving to the iOS platform? I've seen no development from any classic servers, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Zodiac, GK and UN had aspirations to move to iOS but this has not come to fruition for various different reasons. Delteria has ofcourse made its plans to launch on iOS abundantly clear but is still yet to happen. Era and GtA obviously have political hurdles. In the case of Zodiac and GK they have their own dev server for a mobile project.

Looking at it further, all iOS servers were pushed by Stefan, there have been a grand total of zero community-led projects launched on mobile. With that statistic in mind you have to question whether it's a realistic goal without being given official endorsement.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

I think that PC Graal should be heavily focused on a development platform with staff access to design worlds. Keep the existing server structure where you can buy hosting and visit the playerworlds in development- however I wouldn't advertise it as a platform you can play on.

Why not? Having players be able to play your work in real-time is one of the single biggest incentives to learn to develop. I do think it should be clearly advertised as community-created content rather than professionally developed content though.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Maybe it's the lack of enthusiasm on the PC staff to develop a server that only 15~ people play?

Although this is certainly true, your proposed solution is not really tackling the underlying problem: PC Graal has essentially been abandoned by Graal management for at least the last 7 years. Although it will never come close to reaching the heights of mobile Graal, it could still do a lot better if it was actually given some support, or if someone who actually cared about it was given control and the access to make changes.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Yes- I really liked it. Why not make it unique more by adding a level system? If you can design it to be something similar to Classic but a whole new type of game I can't see why it would be declined.

It's an interesting thought hypothetically, but the reality of the situation is that Stephane and Xor will not even discuss the matter of whether the servers are similar. There is also the fact that an agreement had already been reached, and it has not even technically been reneged, I'm just assuming that because despite my best efforts over the last 18 months, communication has completely broken down from their side.

Really though if you took away the sword style combat we'd have to remake all the content anyway, and nobody would see it as a homage to the original Graal anymore.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

I guess you either change or live with the fact it won't be an iOS server.

It's odd that you bring this up, because on one of the few occasions Unixmad did reply he was acting as if we were expecting to be launched on iOS, which as I pointed out before is a privilege that no community-led project has yet been granted. It is only Facebook + Web Browser that we had agreed to be launch on, and the differences between the servers are abundantly obvious to anyone who is capable of not judging a book by its cover.

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Zodiac, GK and UN had aspirations to move to iOS but this has not come to fruition for various different reasons. Delteria has ofcourse made its plans to launch on iOS abundantly clear but is still yet to happen. Era and GtA obviously have political hurdles. In the case of Zodiac and GK they have their own dev server for a mobile project.

Looking at it further, all iOS servers were pushed by Stefan, there have been a grand total of zero community-led projects launched on mobile. With that statistic in mind you have to question whether it's a realistic goal without being given official endorsement.

Stefan didn't actually do much on the iOS servers- I did the majority of the content on both Ol' West and Zone; I don't believe this is the reason why iOS server's aren't being pushed. If a server is wanting to progress to iOS I suggest they contact the PWA? That's how it's always been and to my knowledge hasn't changed.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Why not? Having players be able to play your work in real-time is one of the single biggest incentives to learn to develop. I do think it should be clearly advertised as community-created content rather than professionally developed content though.

You missed my point- Staff can design using PC and the iOS players can watch using their device. We use TWITCH a lot on iEra to promote development. I'm pretty sure every player with more than 100~ hours are aware it's a community driven project.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Although this is certainly true, your proposed solution is not really tackling the underlying problem: PC Graal has essentially been abandoned by Graal management for at least the last 7 years. Although it will never come close to reaching the heights of mobile Graal, it could still do a lot better if it was actually given some support, or if someone who actually cared about it was given control and the access to make changes.

Why would Graal as a company invest time in a product that isn't their main platform? I agree it could be a lot better - but what's the point when we've proven that the iOS servers are performing 1000's times better.

As mentioned previously- I'd push PC to more a development environment used to create the iOS worlds.

It's an interesting thought hypothetically, but the reality of the situation is that Stephane and Xor will not even discuss the matter of whether the servers are similar. There is also the fact that an agreement had already been reached, and it has not even technically been reneged, I'm just assuming that because despite my best efforts over the last 18 months, communication has completely broken down from their side.

Really though if you took away the sword style combat we'd have to remake all the content anyway, and nobody would see it as a homage to the original Graal anymore.

It's odd that you bring this up, because on one of the few occasions Unixmad did reply he was acting as if we were expecting to be launched on iOS, which as I pointed out before is a privilege that no community-led project has yet been granted. It is only Facebook + Web Browser that we had agreed to be launch on, and the differences between the servers are abundantly obvious to anyone who is capable of not judging a book by its cover.

Let's look at this realistically- you've not been contacted in 18 months regarding a release, it's not going to happen in it's current state.

I agree, it would be a completely different server if you took away the swords and created a leveling system (as a suggestion). However, from a company point of view why would they release a Classic clone to confuse the young players?

I hate to say it to you because I think you've put a lot of dedication and effort in to GtA- but if you aren't going to change it to a server that's not similar to Classic... it won't get released; You need to make the decision to change or let it go. I know if I was a company manager I wouldn't invest time in to a project that is a replica of an existing product. Sorry if this offends you.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Stefan didn't actually do much on the iOS servers- I did the majority of the content on both Ol' West and Zone; I don't believe this is the reason why iOS server's aren't being pushed. If a server is wanting to progress to iOS I suggest they contact the PWA? That's how it's always been and to my knowledge hasn't changed.

It was Stefan and Unixmad who set the target of releasing iZone and Ol'West was it not? PWA also have no influence over mobile Graal with the exception of there being a management void.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

You missed my point- Staff can design using PC and the iOS players can watch using their device. We use TWITCH a lot on iEra to promote development. I'm pretty sure every player with more than 100~ hours are aware it's a community driven project.

I didn't miss your point, I disagreed with it. You said it shouldn't be advertised as a platform you can play on, whereas I believe it should be advertised as a platform that you can both play and develop on.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Why would Graal as a company invest time in a product that isn't their main platform? I agree it could be a lot better - but what's the point when we've proven that the iOS servers are performing 1000's times better.

As mentioned previously- I'd push PC to more a development environment used to create the iOS worlds.

As I alluded to before, this all goes hand-in-hand with eachother. The primary source of real developmental prowess on mobile Graal consists largely of developers who originated on PC Graal, who've all been around at a time where their work can have an immediate influence on a live server that already has players.

It's already well established that very few developers have the desire, stamina and ability to stick with an entirely new project long enough for it to become complete, particularly as without there being players readily available to appreciate it that it can be a drain on one's motivation. By killing PC Graal off as a game this will only become even more of a challenge. With there being no examples of successful iOS projects that weren't officially endorsed to begin with, where is the incentive coming from?

Not to mention the PC platform is more easily capable of providing richer quality content, should Graal not be trying to improve itself in terms of gameplay? Then there's the fact that some players prefer being part of a tighter-knit community. If PlayerWorlds can be launched on Facebook/Web, Graal can reap the rewards of both worlds.

Would it also not be a bad idea to support PC Graal as a game in order to use it as a stepping-stone for future iOS servers?

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Let's look at this realistically- you've not been contacted in 18 months regarding a release, it's not going to happen in it's current state.

You're assuming the reason for the communication breakdown has something to do with the state of the server, in which case why don't they put a solid argument forward or attempt to negotiate a compromise? The fact that they are hiding from discussion instead of trying to sort it out like any responsible manager would suggests there is an ulterior motive.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

However, from a company point of view why would they release a Classic clone to confuse the young players?

I hate to say it to you because I think you've put a lot of dedication and effort in to GtA- but if you aren't going to change it to a server that's not similar to Classic... it won't get released; You need to make the decision to change or let it go. I know if I was a company manager I wouldn't invest time in to a project that is a replica of an existing product. Sorry if this offends you.

This is where a blind eye is being turned. Why would we want to change a server when ~99% of players that have spent more than 5 minutes on it agree that it is much different?

• The quests are unique and have been referred to as numerous respected members of the community as the best quests that have been developed on Graal. If you look at what we've accomplished despite being stifled all these years, imagine what we could accomplish if we were actually supported?
• It may not necessarily be everyone's "cup of tea", but there is a storyline and clear provision of in-game direction
• A lot of events are either not feasible on mobile Graal, are less watered-down, or are using unique systems. To highlight one in particular, even GtA's pre-wipe Capture the Flag was commonly referred to as "the best CTF on Graal", it was arguably the last thing keeping pre-wipe Classic alive, there were many memorable nights where hardcore players would stay up late purely to participate in CTF nights. Our CTF has been revamped since then, whereas CTF no longer exists on iClassic
• There is the Trading Card Game which is not only unique, but a potential resource for micro-transactions
• Our Local Guilds system includes a Guild Point currency and Guild Award shop, some of the awards again being fairly unique on Graal. Apparently iClassic are now developing a new guilds system to work in a similar way, but then it's a format that makes complete sense
• The Gelat economy works totally different, it can't even be called an economy on GtA. Instead Gelats are gradually acquired through questing/exploration/tasks, and you are then able to replenish them up to the total amount you have unlocked

Or should everyone just pretend it's the same because it has a similar tileset and similar core levels and you slash swords? Would be extremely shallow.

[PlanetOscar]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

I hate to say it to you because I think you've put a lot of dedication and effort in to GtA- but if you aren't going to change it to a server that's not similar to Classic... it won't get released; You need to make the decision to change or let it go. I know if I was a company manager I wouldn't invest time in to a project that is a replica of an existing product. Sorry if this offends you.

https://youtu.be/moSFlvxnbgk

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

It was Stefan and Unixmad who set the target of releasing iZone and Ol'West was it not? PWA also have no influence over mobile Graal with the exception of there being a management void.

It was Unixmad that sets the targets. Stefan oversaw the development and scripted the serverlister.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

As I alluded to before, this all goes hand-in-hand with eachother. The primary source of real developmental prowess on mobile Graal consists largely of developers who originated on PC Graal, who've all been around at a time where their work can have an immediate influence on a live server that already has players.

It's already well established that very few developers have the desire, stamina and ability to stick with an entirely new project long enough for it to become complete, particularly as without there being players readily available to appreciate it that it can be a drain on one's motivation. By killing PC Graal off as a game this will only become even more of a challenge. With there being no examples of successful iOS projects that weren't officially endorsed to begin with, where is the incentive coming from?

Not to mention the PC platform is more easily capable of providing richer quality content, should Graal not be trying to improve itself in terms of gameplay? Then there's the fact that some players prefer being part of a tighter-knit community. If PlayerWorlds can be launched on Facebook/Web, Graal can reap the rewards of both worlds.

Why would it become more of a challenge? I've seen lots of iOS people learn all Graal Development. iEra, Ol West and Zone didn't just stop being developed when Stefan left. Stefan was never involved in the content of the servers- more the maintenance and security; All these servers are successful iOS projects as every one of them is being developed by a team of people brought together by the community. The iOS servers are proof that the Development wouldn't stop and PC servers aren't giving any incentive to develop.

I'm not sure what you mean with the richer quality content on the PC platform. What do you mean by this? iOS servers can't produce the same quality of content as a PC server? If so- why? If not please elaborate.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

You're assuming the reason for the communication breakdown has something to do with the state of the server, in which case why don't they put a solid argument forward or attempt to negotiate a compromise? The fact that they are hiding from discussion instead of trying to sort it out like any responsible manager would suggests there is an ulterior motive.

This is where a blind eye is being turned. Why would we want to change a server when ~99% of players that have spent more than 5 minutes on it agree that it is much different?

• The quests are unique and have been referred to as numerous respected members of the community as the best quests that have been developed on Graal. If you look at what we've accomplished despite being stifled all these years, imagine what we could accomplish if we were actually supported?
• It may not necessarily be everyone's "cup of tea", but there is a storyline and clear provision of in-game direction
• A lot of events are either not feasible on mobile Graal, are less watered-down, or are using unique systems. To highlight one in particular, even GtA's pre-wipe Capture the Flag was commonly referred to as "the best CTF on Graal", it was arguably the last thing keeping pre-wipe Classic alive, there were many memorable nights where hardcore players would stay up late purely to participate in CTF nights. Our CTF has been revamped since then, whereas CTF no longer exists on iClassic
• There is the Trading Card Game which is not only unique, but a potential resource for micro-transactions
• Our Local Guilds system includes a Guild Point currency and Guild Award shop, some of the awards again being fairly unique on Graal. Apparently iClassic are now developing a new guilds system to work in a similar way, but then it's a format that makes complete sense
• The Gelat economy works totally different, it can't even be called an economy on GtA. Instead Gelats are gradually acquired through questing/exploration/tasks, and you are then able to replenish them up to the total amount you have unlocked

Or should everyone just pretend it's the same because it has a similar tileset and similar core levels and you slash swords? Would be extremely shallow.

As mentioned, I'm looking at it from a realistic point of view- I wouldn't release a server that's similar to Classic but has a story behind it; I'd want something new to release to players. I wouldn't invest any time in to it. If anything, I'd poach you in to helping Classic.

I hate to be a ****, but I'm pointing out the facts from the list above. Classic has quests. Classic has Events. Classic has unique games. Classic has a guild system. The difference between Classic and GtA is a story. Why couldn't you implement the GtA events, games and quests on to Classic? To me... there's not a big enough difference for me to invest in. Sorry if this offends.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

It was Unixmad that sets the targets. Stefan oversaw the development and scripted the serverlister.

Well then, my point remains.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Why would it become more of a challenge? I've seen lots of iOS people learn all Graal Development. iEra, Ol West and Zone didn't just stop being developed when Stefan left. Stefan was never involved in the content of the servers- more the maintenance and security; All these servers are successful iOS projects as every one of them is being developed by a team of people brought together by the community. The iOS servers are proof that the Development wouldn't stop and PC servers aren't giving any incentive to develop.

For every developer that has remained exclusive to the mobile servers, there are a lot who have jumped back and forth between the platforms. I never said that iOS development would stop if PC Graal was killed off as a game, but the pathways would be reduced and unless you're one of the privileged few able to work on an officially endorsed project, there is virtually no guarantee of being able to have a significant number of players experience your work.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

I'm not sure what you mean with the richer quality content on the PC platform. What do you mean by this? iOS servers can't produce the same quality of content as a PC server? If so- why? If not please elaborate

I didn't say that iOS can't produce the same quality, I said that it is less simple. This is largely owed to the technical capabilities of devices, but then you can also factor in aspects such as screen sizes, the requirement for instancing on a mass-player environment, the ability to use keypad etc.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

As mentioned, I'm looking at it from a realistic point of view- I wouldn't release a server that's similar to Classic but has a story behind it; I'd want something new to release to players. I wouldn't invest any time in to it. If anything, I'd poach you in to helping Classic.

I hate to be a ****, but I'm pointing out the facts from the list above. Classic has quests. Classic has Events. Classic has unique games. Classic has a guild system. The difference between Classic and GtA is a story.

It is highly complacent to make such simplistic comparisons. Even though the servers share some taxonomies of content, the difference in terms of actual gameplay varies highly. If you truly wanted to release something new to players, you would see that GtA offers that already.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Why couldn't you implement the GtA events, games and quests on to Classic?

Technical reasons. GtA is developed using 100% custom systems, with there being a lot of functionality that is simply not possible to accomplish with built-in systems.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Sorry if this offends

No offense taken, but I do suspect you may be deliberately down-playing the differences between the servers to better suit your arguments. In your defense perhaps there is a lot more in common between the two Era servers, and apparently they have faced similar hurdles.