What classic's all about.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

When the criticism is nothing but "that's stupid", or "that's just plain ****ed up", without providing any reasoning or acknowledgement of provided details, then yes it is.

There isn't much to criticize, Crono seems to have taken up that argument already.

I just plain don't like the idea because it means having to basically do paperwork for global guilds to be created locally. Local guild can work, I just dislike them other than for throwaway tags and local staff. I think it's stupid to disallow global guilds simply because they're global.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Hiro

There isn't much to criticize, Crono seems to have taken up that argument already.

The arguments made against global guilds so far do not weigh up when balanced against the advantages of a local guilds system that have been highlighted.

Originally Posted by Hiro

I think it's stupid to disallow global guilds simply because they're global.

So do I. We're not going to scrap global guilds just because they're global, that's actually the one factor (though not necessarily an advantage) which doesn't apply to local guilds.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Yes, I've acknowledged that having a quest storyline (and it's not a forced one by the way) narrows the appeal, as this isn't of direct importance to most casual style players (there are exceptions, some do try the quests and end up liking them). This is not to say that it's a negative point of the server, especially as it is not impacting the ability to participate within competitive content, and to suggest that it is would be ignorant of the fact a lot of players have been connected to the community via questing.

The majority of your casual players (that will constitute the majority of the playerbase in general) are not going to be competitive players. We've both already acknowledged that the quest-story structure (which yeah, it is kind of forced) narrows down its appeal against the casual players.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

A handful of quests is little in comparison to the number that existed on Classic at the time, even if you knew what you were doing Classic's quests took several days to get through, in my case I remember it taking weeks, which was just not practical to get far with on a trial account.
So while it would be fair to say Delteria was affected, it wouldn't have been vulnerable to the same extent.

Yeah but there was nothing stopping existing Classic players and players with Classic/Gold/VIP from continuing to play Classic/get through the questing phase. This didn't happen though. A large majority of Graal's playerbase, who were fully able to complete Classic's quests, opted for other servers (most which were still what we call "Classic" or rather "traditional" defaults). It's actually kind of funny we've brought this up because I remember some servers would get in trouble with the PWA by adding NPCs that would secretly save trial stats/progress. Oh the good times.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

2000 was a lot more random, with no main storyline or provided direction, though you could say there was the objective of finding the 4 Graal's to open the golden gate.

You know, I could have sworn I made it into the golden realm without completing all the quests. Perhaps the golden realm I'm referring to and the golden gate are two different things.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

The arguments made against global guilds so far do not weigh up when balanced against the advantages of a local guilds system that have been highlighted.

In your opinion maybe. To players it will mean having to organize another member list for their global guild which is annoying and seemingly pointless. The only real advantages local guilds give are the ability to control them more, and not even that much more.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

So do I. We're not going to scrap global guilds just because they're global, that's actually the one factor (though not necessarily an advantage) which doesn't apply to local guilds.

Except that is an advantage.

But whatever. This isn't the first time you've senselessly argued against something people had issues with.

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by Hiro

In your opinion maybe. To players it will mean having to organize another member list for their global guild which is annoying and seemingly pointless. The only real advantages local guilds give are the ability to control them more, and not even that much more.

LOL, You're joking right? Think of what you can expand to local guilds as functionality. Just think on that and you'll see why you're wrong.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Fulg0reSama

LOL, You're joking right? Think of what you can expand to local guilds as functionality. Just think on that and you'll see why you're wrong.

You can "expand" the same **** to global guilds.

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by Hiro

You can "expand" the same **** to global guilds.

Cute keywording, what I'm referring to is the fact that local guilds can be manipulated towards actually beneficial uses and constructs that work towards the server itself. I'm not talking merely making it so members can be added.

On a development perspective, Local, Scripted guilds beat the hell out of Global guilds by the fact that they can be established to a point where they actually hold functionality other then just being name-tags.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Fulg0reSama

Cute keywording, what I'm referring to is the fact that local guilds can be manipulated towards actually beneficial uses and constructs that work towards the server itself. I'm not talking merely making it so members can be added.

On a development perspective, Local, Scripted guilds beat the hell out of Global guilds by the fact that they can be established to a point where they actually hold functionality other then just being name-tags.

In the end it's just tag manipulation which can be done with global guilds as well.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Hiro

To players it will mean having to organize another member list for their global guild which is annoying and seemingly pointless.

If it means having a much better system, then surely it's worth it?
You're also forgetting that it will save the effort of members having to open their web browser, log in to Graal Online and browse through the control panel there, as opposed to opening a window within the game.

Originally Posted by Hiro

The only real advantages local guilds give are the ability to control them more, and not even that much more.

Control them more?
They'd give us 100% freedom and control.

Originally Posted by Hiro

Except that is an advantage.

Not when you have thousands of mostly useless guilds, some intended for other specific servers.

Originally Posted by Hiro

You can "expand" the same **** to global guilds.

Except we can't, global guilds have very few ways in which they can be accessed by script.

Originally Posted by Hiro

This isn't the first time you've senselessly argued against something

Ironic >

Originally Posted by Hiro

Local guilds only is stupid and you should feel bad for thinking it's a good idea.

Originally Posted by Hiro

If so, then that is just plain ****ed up, as are local guilds in general.

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by Hiro

In the end it's just tag manipulation which can be done with global guilds as well.

This is a perfect example of being closed minded, I refer to you this as to my example of why Global Guilds can't beat Local Guilds in functionality, as well as just plain being more then capable of replacing the obsolete system:

Originally Posted by Fulg0reSama

Example: Billy Bob "Cotton Eye" Joe Harris decides he wants to have "The Farmer's Guild". He pays or does whatever is necessary for that guild to be created, an excessively creative server could have it where that you go to the "Guild's Headquarters" and fill out some "paper forms" in a clever GUI appearance, once that is done, a guild administrator could literally read and review said application right in front of you, interview you based on the answers of your questions given from the application, Once everything is fixed, finished and ready to go, you get your "Guild Certificate" and then you could be asked if you wish to also buy a Guildhouse for your brand spankin' new guild.

The idea of guilds is an extremely flexible and also enjoyable aspect, Global Guilds are just nametags, Local Guilds could literally become what a server IS, If you know how to create content friendly to the feature itself.

I would also like to simply add to the fact that if we've seen from what the Scripted RC has shown to everybody else, that also means that having Local Guilds as a barebone script on its own is also a viable way to eliminate the need for Global Guilds at all, considering that it could even become the new Global Guild System itself.

This is a hypothetical, but it's not improbable.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

text

You'd gain the ability to delete/create guilds?

Originally Posted by Fulg0reSama

This is a perfect example of being closed minded, I refer to you this as to my example of why Global Guilds can't beat Local Guilds in functionality, as well as just plain being more then capable of replacing the obsolete system:



This is a hypothetical, but it's not improbable.

If that's what you want why not offer it to both types of guilds?

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by Hiro

If that's what you want why not offer it to both types of guilds?

Allow me to answer your question with one of my own.

Why have the need for two when one can do the other one's job better and more efficiently?
My stance on the matter is that Global guilds are worthless when if the effort was put into it properly, could become a primary system inside of Graal itself, then it can/could give players the ability to use these guilds added to the system on any server they like, Servers then could make it where for a guild to be made or a member to be approved/evaluated to a guild, then they would just have to do a simple application, in game, just like we do now, afterwards, there could be some form of "Global Guild" approval system at login (in client) for either some kind of global staff or even the guild leaders/recruiters themselves (Doesn't matter to me, but I'd prefer a global personnel in charge of that, while the guild leaders/recruiters would be in charge of removal of their staff), perhaps place on the bar, where you go to install developer tools/buy gralat, which is also just so empty at the moment. Finally, just like the Scripted RC, there could be requested privileges that a server could ask for specifically their guild systems, so that they could even diversify the guild system the way they want to, as well as keep the system itself secure.

I do not fully understand how everything works with scripting/how the scripted RC itself works, this is all just an idea, If it could work, that would be fantastic.