Too hard to develop servers?

[Darklux]

As my thread on the Main Forum was not released,
I wan't to open up a small discussion relating in development servers.

My impression as staff member on various places and long time player is,
that it's just too hard to develop a server nowadays.

Why?

- Graphics, Graphics, Graphics

It's hard to build a new server without a hell lot of graphics.
You need a tileset (of course you can use the official one, but it's just been used too much over the past years, you see it nearly everywhere you go),
graphics for furniture, weapons, or anything you can think of, while you can number the count of active graphics designers on graal with one hand, most of them are blocked with work on other servers.

So how to compete with servers like era, or other nicely styled up playerworlds? You always need a graphics artist and there aren't really any available.

- Lack of developers

Most players who develop are already bound in projects and rarely new, good developers are coming.
Why? The tools are as attractive as Windows 95 on a 486 Machine:
Outdated, Slow, Buggy.
Manpower instead is put in projects never released, like Graal 3d, Flying Technology, or odd platforms like the iPhone (okay it could attract outsiders, but I guess they will run away when they will hit the REAL graal, with the problems I am currently stating here)


So what would I say?

Invest time in a graphics and scripts database available for anyone, more different Tilesets to use, Graphics and so on, so that more players can build good playerworlds without a degree in computer science and/or design.
Invest more times in essential things for graal:
Level Editor and Gani Shop - Scripted or not! The last versions were published a decade ago, are buggy and unhandy.


I hope more people will agree - but graal is a development platform - and it nearly seems that Cyberjoueurs is trying to ruin this very aspect of it by not listenting to anybody and just working on nice daydreams like Graal 3d or iPhone Graal, while important aspects of the main game are in urge need of maintenance.

[Codein]

I completely agree. I'm working on a project where every bit of work will be opensource. I hope other players follow in suit.

[DustyPorViva]

I've tried open-source, the problem is for some idiotic reason, that players feel open-source stuff loses its value. I've heard many tell me that don't want to use my graphics from my free tiles thread because they're accessible to everyone, and they don't want to use stuff that's available to other servers... they want unique stuff. I have no problem with that, but it seems people like to make things harder for themselves because they always want to one-up the 'competition', or have some sort of higher standard. I'm completely pro open-source, I just wish more people were... because those who use open-source content may end up getting criticized for not making their own work and be held on a lower tier just because they didn't make it.

Anyways, there is a myriad of things that contribute to the difficulty of development. The major obstacle, I think, is the fact that this is just a game to 99[percent] of us and something we do during our free time, when developing a game(especially an online one) is a full-time job. We all have this sudden inspiration to do something big, and go to do it only to have a huge spur of initial development that slowly(or suddenly) dwindles down into inactivity. It sucks, because our only real encouragement to get our stuff done seems to be inspiration... without that we end up losing focus.

Oh, and the complete absence of external, offline development tools contributes handicaps to the actual labor of development. It's terrible that Stefan is basically telling us if we want it, we gotta make it ourselves. Oh well.

[Codein]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I've tried open-source, the problem is for some idiotic reason, that players feel open-source stuff loses its value. I've heard many tell me that don't want to use my graphics from my free tiles thread because they're accessible to everyone, and they don't want to use stuff that's available to other servers... they want unique stuff. I have no problem with that, but it seems people like to make things harder for themselves because they always want to one-up the 'competition', or have some sort of higher standard. I'm completely pro open-source, I just wish more people were... because those who use open-source content may end up getting criticized for not making their own work and be held on a lower tier just because they didn't make it.

Anyways, there is a myriad of things that contribute to the difficulty of development. The major obstacle, I think, is the fact that this is just a game to 99[percent] of us and something we do during our free time, when developing a game(especially an online one) is a full-time job. We all have this sudden inspiration to do something big, and go to do it only to have a huge spur of initial development that slowly(or suddenly) dwindles down into inactivity. It sucks, because our only real encouragement to get our stuff done seems to be inspiration... without that we end up losing focus.

Oh, and the complete absence of external, offline development tools contributes handicaps to the actual labor of development. It's terrible that Stefan is basically telling us if we want it, we gotta make it ourselves. Oh well.

I couldn't agree more. I mean, after all, the material that's released open-source is not uneditable. Infact, I'd strongly encourage my open-source material to be editted in some way before being used. Nothing wrong with that, to be honest.

In the end, people can't say we haven't tried.

[Clockwork]

Like 90% of my tileset is stuff I've been given, and I'm taking a hold of as much open source that would benefit my server as I can.

I see no reason why players should really mind, I bet loads of them wouldn't even know it was open source.... o_O

[Soala]

I can't say anything, that thread was 100% true.

[Inverness]

Inspiration is a necessity for me to script anything. I don't even take money.

Graal developers that don't wish to utilize open-source material are ignorant. For example, in the real world, not all development companies have the time and money to create their own engine so they license other engines such as Unreal and Gamebryo to shorten the development time and still have a great product.

[Horrified]

Making a server is not hard, if you stop thinking about matching the quality of the games out right now with 12000 quests and 200 different types of clothes and 123094203984 level map. If there's a ton of cool little servers, because everyone worked on there own smaller projects that only take a few months, the success of Graalonline would skyrocket.

A server is not hard to develop, but it is hard to create a server simply possible to develop in a reasonable time. Here is an ordinary idea for a server's workload:

1. At least 20-40 GFX needed and 1 totally unique tileset (Just the necessities)
2. Extremely difficult script designs, like really good AI for baddies and stuff that is just a complete pain in the ass.
3. GMaps with over 100 levels in them, all requiring complete attention to each one.
4. 10-15 GANIs (not really difficult, a 3 year old can GANI)

Stop trying to think impossible. When you're creating a server idea that you want eventually to come to life, don't think about custom bodies and "revolutionary gameplay." I'm not saying don't tweak the formula a lot, but be sure you have or you're sure you'll have the proper resources (developers) to handle it, otherwise think about what is already open-source and what your team's, and especially your capablities are.

There's only about a handful of rediculously great scripters on Graalonline, for example. I mean people that have taken college courses. One of them is, of course, Stefan. I'm sure you can pick out the others. These guys can tackle big things, but I'm 99 percent sure they're not interested in your project, and if they are it's not in a "well let me help develop" way.

Also, there's tons of variables that come into every new staff member you acquire. One of them, your great GAT, is going to start college in 2 weeks and doesn't have time for it anymore. But you're almost done! Too bad you'll never find a GAT of acceptable quality that he was to add to your team.

Think small ideas with great replay value. A 1000 GMap with a custom tileset sounds great, but you'll never get released; it'll take years. A 50 level GMap with some great gameplay in it with pics1 will take a few months at most, including the content that comes with it.

If you don't develop but want to make a server, I strongly suggest you practice in one of the two most important fields: Leveling w/ pics1 or Scripting. Graphics are important to a server, but if you make a proper server idea, graphics could simply just be unnecessary to an idea that works with open-source graphics or simply just a minimum of graphics.

[napo_p2p]

For me, I'm willing to develop, but not to the point where I have to pay the $40 a year or whatever it is for an account. One thing that might help attract some developers is some kind of (cheaper) subscription option that gives you access to a particular playerworld.

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by napo_p2p

For me, I'm willing to develop, but not to the point where I have to pay the $40 a year or whatever it is for an account. One thing that might help attract some developers is some kind of (cheaper) subscription option that gives you access to a particular playerworld.

paying 10-15 USD for a "Playerworld-specific" account would be cool.

[Soala]

Originally Posted by Horrified

over 100 levels

Are you serious ?

Actually, each server would need to have quite a good gmap, it just depends on what you make.

If you make a modern style, then ok you can copy Era and make a small map so players wont get lost to find someone to fight with.

But if you make RPG, don't you seriously think it needs around...350 levels at least ? Or there is no point.
And yeah, 350 is WAY more than 100, people never really realize that it's not even enough.
Think about it, Unholy Nation is currently a bit over 300.

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by alexandralove

Are you serious ?

Actually, each server would need to have quite a good gmap, it just depends on what you make.

If you make a modern style, then ok you can copy Era and make a small map so players wont get lost to find someone to fight with.

But if you make RPG, don't you seriously think it needs around...350 levels at least ? Or there is no point.
And yeah, 350 is WAY more than 100, people never really realize that it's not even enough.
Think about it, Unholy Nation is currently a bit over 300.

I'm serious -- 100 or 150 levels. Make content in your server like quests not make use of the entire GMap immediantly. If you acn make your gameplay right, even 50 could do.

[Vima]

Yeah, it's too expensive to be a developer. They need to make that cheaper.

I also think they should break the "Classic Tab/Hosted Tab/Gold tab/Hidden Under Construction Servers"
Everyone should be under the same roof, same conditions. Because it's simply too hard for servers to get attention, to get developers.

Graal have great tools, i don't really think it has anything to do with that.

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by Vima

Yeah, it's too expensive to be a developer. They need to make that cheaper.

I also think they should break the "Classic Tab/Hosted Tab/Gold tab/Hidden Under Construction Servers"
Everyone should be under the same roof, same conditions. Because it's simply too hard for servers to get attention, to get developers.

Graal have great tools, i don't really think it has anything to do with that.

I don't think that servers should have absolutely no tab for ones that are more complete, but i think that an extra tab for "New Under Construction Servers" and "Under Construction Servers." Servers that are set as staff-only are exempt from all tabs, because if you're staff-only it obviously means one thing: you want privacy.

Just because ith as the tools doesn't mean that there are people willing to work. There's a shortage of developers, so I'd say you stick to making simplistic but enjoyable things. I've got quite a few very good, completely outlined server ideas that use very limited amounts of levels and development, but the enjoyability is endless.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Horrified

I'm serious -- 100 or 150 levels. Make content in your server like quests not make use of the entire GMap immediantly. If you acn make your gameplay right, even 50 could do.

I like a variety of levels, even if they're not used, honestly. Valikorlia, last I checked (if /stats is correct), has well over 1,000 levels. I mean well over. I wouldn't sacrifice this for finishing a server faster.