Project Community

[Imperialistic]

GDT should really take initiative towards the wiki and documentation.

[WhiteDragon]

I don't understand where everyone is getting the idea that throwing a bunch of good developers at a server will make it succeed. Scripters don't like working together on large projects, it's annoying to work on bad code, and sometimes developers may not like the administration of the server. There is a big array of issues with just dedicating the GDT to a server.

I think the power of the GDT is in dedicating small groups (2-3 people) to small development projects. Or, for them to all work on stuff like common resources like the server pack, or things such as GS2 documentation, and development tutorials.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

I don't understand where everyone is getting the idea that throwing a bunch of good developers at a server will make it succeed. Scripters don't like working together on large projects, it's annoying to work on bad code, and sometimes developers may not like the administration of the server. There is a big array of issues with just dedicating the GDT to a server.

I think the power of the GDT is in dedicating small groups (2-3 people) to small development projects. Or, for them to all work on stuff like common resources like the server pack, or things such as GS2 documentation, and development tutorials.

The problem is that everyone is talking about the "concept" of a Global Development Team. The reality isn't anything like the name implies. That's why I call this a "feel good" thread.

Originally Posted by Imperialistic

GDT should really take initiative towards the wiki and documentation.

That's a good suggestion. I tried the GS2 documentation 5 months ago and I found it lacking, although certainly useful. I know Skyld has put a lot of effort into documentation and support... he had the right idea.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Stephen

The problem is that everyone is talking about the "concept" of a Global Development Team. The reality isn't anything like the name implies.

I agree, more or less. It is a global group of developers, but its only a group in the sense that they are in the same place, not that they are a "team".

Some coordination within the group is definitely possible -- it has happened already. But projects that require extreme teamwork would simply not succeed, such as a server.

[Cloven]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I was being sincere - it's a good idea.

I agree, and was elaborating.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

I don't understand where everyone is getting the idea that throwing a bunch of good developers at a server will make it succeed. Scripters don't like working together on large projects, it's annoying to work on bad code, and sometimes developers may not like the administration of the server. There is a big array of issues with just dedicating the GDT to a server.

I think the power of the GDT is in dedicating small groups (2-3 people) to small development projects. Or, for them to all work on stuff like common resources like the server pack, or things such as GS2 documentation, and development tutorials.

I don't understand why you are assuming that it wouldn't work. There is no reason why the GDT cannot develop servers, if not a single server. Obviously, with how many scripters we have we wouldn't need everybody to be working on a single server. But I think that a lot of you guys are completely missing the forest for the trees, if the GDT really is about improving Graal: this game is about playerworlds, not about GS2 documentation and pre-made tools and packs.

We can throw all the resources we want into the developing pool, but it's simply not as large as it once was. It's the least rewarding aspects of the GDT, in terms of how the team can benefit Graal. People don't just come to Graal to develop. They arrive first at a game and then become developers. Focusing on making tools and guides for a small pool of developers is kind of inconsequential if players (new developers) aren't coming in.

There are servers that need to be worked on and that can be improved. At the very least, the GDT can and should step in there. If there's enough impetus and reason, the GDT can and should develop an original server. These are the things that can really help Graal. I don't think we should forget about documentation and small projects, but pigeonholing the GDT into serving only those functions simply ensures that the group remains in the same position as it is right now.

Originally Posted by Inverness

Just because the members of the GDT might be more experienced/skilled than the average developer does not mean we're too good to use the code gallery or anything similar.

The Code Gallery is the least effective way of distributing and advertising GDT-created content. Sorry if you disagree.

Originally Posted by kia345

The GDT should not exist as a global resource, when they would be far more useful as legit server developers. As it stands, the GDT puts alleged "great developers" in a passive aid position, instead of attaching the dream team to a server and making it flourish.

My thoughts almost; I think we can exist as both a global resource and server developers.

Originally Posted by Cloven

Anybody who would seriously like to help out with Delteria and who has above-average skill is always welcome

I graduate June 12th. So long as I'm not salvaging the server (meaning, it's in good shape, so that coming and getting straight to work isn't difficult), I'm willing to help out some.

[salesman]

Even if you guys make a new server, what makes you think it will attract new players to this game? At best, you'd just steal players from an already existing server. Good luck, I guess.

If you absolutely insist on making a server, try to team up with Stefan and Classic iPhone and release a PC version to draw in players from the iPhone. It would be really cool if the two platforms were somehow linked (sharing stats, progress, or anything) to bridge the gap.

[Cloven]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

I graduate June 12th. So long as I'm not salvaging the server (meaning, it's in good shape, so that coming and getting straight to work isn't difficult), I'm willing to help out some.

Scripting accounts for at least 90% of to-do work, plenty of stuff to work with as well as room for a certain amount of creative liberty with some things.

[DarkIceX]

Guys, I'm seeing lots of really good ideas and really good input from everybody here, not just a few select people.

Looks to me like the biggest issue is deciding not what the GDT should be working on in terms of which specific projects they take on. Instead it looks like its more a decision of what general type of projects they should take on.

I think everybody here really needs to ask themselves should the GDT be working on:

A) Providing documentation, tutorials, starter packs, etc for up and coming developers and servers.

B) Working on small projects that will benefit Graal and make it more fun, such as Rufus' World Cup idea.

C) Working on a large scale project that would require the help of the entire team and then some, such as creating a new server or helping out an/some existing server(s) such as creating a new server or helping N-Pulse/Delteria.

I think either one of these three (or all three, but everyone knows that's probably unrealistic to hope for at this point in time,) would be a very good path for the GDT to go down at some point or another, but for right now, what needs to be focused on is getting more players to come to Graal and play it.
I know I created a thread moaning the other day, but after logging on for more than 5 minutes, I'm seeing many new players coming in from iPhone and a lot of them are spending quite a bit of time online, so there is definitely something being done right.
Anyways, back to my original point. I think that if the GDT spent some time working on some projects, such as Rufus' World Cup idea and other global events or even things for individual servers to make them more fun for players to be on would be a good idea to keep those trials who are coming in from iPhone and where ever else they come from and it would also keep the older players interested because they would have something different to do than whatever they do on their home server.

Just my opinion, but the three paths the GDT could take that I mentioned earlier seems to be what the whole thread boils down to in terms of decisions.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

I don't understand why you are assuming that it wouldn't work. There is no reason why the GDT cannot develop servers, if not a single server. Obviously, with how many scripters we have we wouldn't need everybody to be working on a single server. But I think that a lot of you guys are completely missing the forest for the trees, if the GDT really is about improving Graal: this game is about playerworlds, not about GS2 documentation and pre-made tools and packs.

We can throw all the resources we want into the developing pool, but it's simply not as large as it once was. It's the least rewarding aspects of the GDT, in terms of how the team can benefit Graal. People don't just come to Graal to develop. They arrive first at a game and then become developers. Focusing on making tools and guides for a small pool of developers is kind of inconsequential if players (new developers) aren't coming in.

There are servers that need to be worked on and that can be improved. At the very least, the GDT can and should step in there. If there's enough impetus and reason, the GDT can and should develop an original server. These are the things that can really help Graal. I don't think we should forget about documentation and small projects, but pigeonholing the GDT into serving only those functions simply ensures that the group remains in the same position as it is right now.

I agree that most important thing for Graal is new players.
I agree that a good server would be one of the major pieces in getting new players.


What does a good server require? Just off the top of my head... direction, management, resources.

So why hasn't there been a good server already? Most would argue lack of resources.


Your point seems to be that if we just shove "GDT" into the resources slot, we will get a good server. This is where I disagree.

If everyone was interested enough in a single server more than all other servers, they would have gotten together and developed it already.

But, the obvious counter-argument is that "the GDT has a command structure to make people do certain work they aren't 100% interested in". This is where my point lies. How is the management of the GDT different from a server's management? What in the GDT makes it possible to unite uninterested developers into doing something?

Nothing.


In summary...
The ideal server developers are many and willing.
The current server developers are few and willing.
The GDT are many and unwilling.

We can still utilize the GDT for small projects which don't require so much will, but not for something like developing a server.

[Inverness]

You don't get paid for developing on Graal. So everyone has their own motivations for developing. Some people like the idea of making content for others to play and experience. Graal's draconian system of payment hinders that, along with the lack of attention from Stefan. I don't think that environment makes people feel as if their work will go anywhere.

[Cloven]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

I agree that most important thing for Graal is new players.
I agree that a good server would be one of the major pieces in getting new players.


What does a good server require? Just off the top of my head... direction, management, resources.

So why hasn't there been a good server already? Most would argue lack of resources.


Your point seems to be that if we just shove "GDT" into the resources slot, we will get a good server. This is where I disagree.

If everyone was interested enough in a single server more than all other servers, they would have gotten together and developed it already.

But, the obvious counter-argument is that "the GDT has a command structure to make people do certain work they aren't 100% interested in". This is where my point lies. How is the management of the GDT different from a server's management? What in the GDT makes it possible to unite uninterested developers into doing something?

Nothing.


In summary...
The ideal server developers are many and willing.
The current server developers are few and willing.
The GDT are many and unwilling.

We can still utilize the GDT for small projects which don't require so much will, but not for something like developing a server.

This is basically a doom-and-gloom scenario, even if it is indeed partially truthful. If the GDT collectively are/have been totally unwilling and uninterested in doing what in theory many would argue they're there for.. then the department should simply be dissolved.

Regardless of what is or isn't at this point it's patently obvious that many of us share one thing in common: desire in some form or another to improve the community. We can all debate as we have for years which specific course of action is the best, but, alas that leaves us ultimately with meaningless banter (for which history shall judge I us I suppose). The fact of the matter is that irrespective of title, privileges, and duties any of us have, those of us who can develop well should come together and do so. This is where everyone needs to learn to be selfless. Not every idea will ever be implemented, but all who participate should rightfully take pride in -- and relish the fact that they've made a positive contribution to this 'hobby' (Graal) we all share in for whatever reason. I mean honestly think about it: if even the past three years weren't spent debating, scheming, and one-up'ing our peers and instead were spent on finishing off Delteria, NP, and improving the other classic servers where needed we'd all be a lot happier than we are now. That's simply fact, and it would've taken =< the amount of energy we've spent doing the former.

There's really no excuse and honestly I don't believe I'm the only one who sees that. Things happen, we all have lives... and for some it sucks. So what, you're still reading this post aren't you? Exactly, so how about we do something?

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Cloven

This is basically a doom-and-gloom scenario, even if it is indeed partially truthful. If the GDT collectively are/have been totally unwilling and uninterested in doing what in theory many would argue they're there for.. then the department should simply be dissolved.

How is it gloom-and-doom? I'm saying there isn't anything special about the GDT that suddenly invigorates everyone in it to have enough will to work on a server.

However, it DOES give us the capability to manage small groups of developers who have common interest in working on certain things.

[Cloven]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

However, it DOES give us the capability to manage small groups of developers who have common interest in working on certain things.

Said this way I take no real issue. Otherwise at some point we'll end back up in the never-ending discussion of what the GDT should be. I simply don't want to go there because I am convinced it's a discussion that cannot be had.

[sssssssssss]

Kind of off topic, but, just to say, if I was stefan, I'd be embarassed as **** about myself for iphone players to see these forums at all (of coarse I'd try and fix the issue :blank.

Its not just the lack of what GDT does and doesnt do. Imo I thought GDT = Global Development Team. A GDT for gfx helped Armageddon when it needed it. I think some of them need to be removed from the list yes, because they really dont do too much of jack squat, but ranting on the matter is useless because its just not going to get fixed. Seriously, anyone realize that graal hasent had an update since like 2005, its website turned *** as all getout, and the forums are horribly organized and bashing the game everywhere (I know I do it to, just saying)?

Better to better yourself, if you are going to use either:
a:Your hard earned money
b:Your parents hard earned money
then do it yourself if you are a developer at all, you paid for the ****. Advertise your own server everywhere, because its just not going to happen by the actual game staff. Theres no real way to argue this either, otherwise Graal would still have 500-700 on at a time every so often.

Btw, World cup idea is great, and I'd love to help if needed.