Interior

[Deek2]

Originally posted by Kaimetsu

Yuh-huh. Except that the most popular MMORPG at the moment has horribly outdated graphics, and that doesn't seem to bother many of its 400,000 users. Compare that number to the population of the prettiest MMORPG. People don't just want to look at pretty pictures, they want engaging gameplay as well. That only comes through good programming.

Yes, exceptionally. But what WOULD be the prettiest MMORPG, then? I think what the outside 'shell' of the game is irrelevant to what the game can really bring along the lines of quality, gameplay, and creativeness. CAN the game attract people? CAN it provide what the player wants? THIS graphics cannot provide. Graphics are merely just the skin of a thriving and complex (or not so complex) organism (not literally ).
I'm just going to start off by saying that I deleted my post(s) for the people that are wondering/curious. Kaimetsu IS right about what he is saying; we just want to believe what we do for fun actually has worth and meaning to it. And in some ways, yes, it is meaningful and has it's worthiness. But to look at the big picture, graphics are only a very small part of what can actually make a difference in the quality of a game (in this case, playerworlds). People that are interested in a game only for it's graphics are not looking at this big picture, only it's frame. Graphics are only the finishing touch to a bigger complexity.
Take, for example, the human body. It has it's head, the brain, the eyes. It has it's own, unique figure. Then it has it's indentity; what it is, why it is. It's has a skin, and that skin tells the viewer what this being is.
Programming and graphics can pertain alot to this example. The engine is the brain; programming sets the boundaries of what that figure can do and what it can't do. It set's the life into the figure, gives it it's intelligence, and so fourth. Then we have the skin: This is where graphics come in. Graphics merely tell the viewer what this figure is and who it is. Graphics are only what the person can see: programming is what gives those graphics feeling and actuality. So hencefourth, graphics aren't as powerful as we (artists) seem to want them to be. It's something even I hate to admit, but it's certainly true.

Whereas artists evidently can't think at all.

Well, maybe. This is true in this situation, especially in the case of me and you, but this is like saying all programmers can't think at all. There's as many intelligent artists as there are intelligent programmers, it's just who you meet with and who you're talking to that counts.

[davidpsy]

Originally posted by Kaimetsu

Whereas artists evidently can't think at all.

So are you saying that all artists are stupid and that programmer are smart? You really have no idea how much planning and intelligence it takes to make good art. Sure anybody can draw a line in ms paint. But to make good art you have to know how shading and light hits certain places. Yeah art may not require as much thinking but it still does require thinking.

[Kinatt]

Deek arguing with kaimetsu is like arguing with a monkey, they just seem to be able to pull **** out of the oddest places and sling it at you. It doesn't have to be legitimate ****, but it does make you try to figure out what the hell he is talking about. Anyway, Kaimetsu knows nothing of graphics leave it at that. He spends his days arguing/debating with 12 yr olds on the forum about a game that he doesn't even play. If he has intelligence he isn't using it to get ahead in this world.

Kaimetsu, saying artists don't think is like me saying all 20 year old british men obviously have no social life, and plan to live with there parents at 30.

[edit]and Kaimetsu if you think graphics people are dumb, why don't you stay the hell out of the graphics forum and let lord zen mod it? He is more than capable of such a feat, even if you don't think so. That would keep you from listening to us 'idiot artists' and would keep us from having to listen to your 'superior than thou' ignorant attitude. You know nothing of graphics, you can't make graphics, you don't even know the process! [/edit]

[Deek2]

Originally posted by davidpsy


So are you saying that all artists are stupid and that programmer are smart? You really have no idea how much planning and intelligence it takes to make good art. Sure anybody can draw a line in ms paint. But to make good art you have to know how shading and light hits certain places. Yeah art may not require as much thinking but it still does require thinking.

But not much. Actually, it takes little to no thinking at all for me to do those actions. It occurs naturally to me. On the other hand, programming requires alot of thinking because you have to know what exactly makes things work and how can you represent those using a programming language on the computer (with restrictions). Learning to program isn't easy, and some probably can't even learn it at all. Comparing that to graphics, you can see which one would be the easiest to pull off. Kaimetsu can make graphics. I can make graphics. Anyone can make graphics. But could those graphics be good? It depends on if you know what you're doing or not. Anyone can pick up a mouse and draw a stick figure on MS Paint.
And yet again, we ARE talking about Graal and all. Graphics, in this sense, don't have to be taken that seriously.

[davidpsy]

Originally posted by Kinatt
Deek arguing with kaimetsu is like arguing with a monkey, they just seem to be able to pull **** out of the oddest places and sling it at you. It doesn't have to be legitimate ****, but it does make you try to figure out what the hell he is talking about. Anyway, Kaimetsu knows nothing of graphics leave it at that. He spends his days arguing/debating with 12 yr olds on the forum about a game that he doesn't even play. If he has intelligence he isn't using it to get ahead in this world.

Kaimetsu, saying artists don't think is like me saying all 20 year old british men obviously have no social life, and plan to live with there parents at 30.

[edit]and Kaimetsu if you think graphics people are dumb, why don't you stay the hell out of the graphics forum and let lord zen mod it? He is more than capable of such a feat, even if you don't think so. That would keep you from listening to us 'idiot artists' and would keep us from having to listen to your 'superior than thou' ignorant attitude. You know nothing of graphics, you can't make graphics, you don't even know the process! [/edit]

Owned?

Originally posted by Deek2

But not much. Actually, it takes little to no thinking at all for me to do those actions. It occurs naturally to me. On the other hand, programming requires alot of thinking because you have to know what exactly makes things work and how can you represent those using a programming language on the computer (with restrictions). Learning to program isn't easy, and some probably can't even learn it at all. Comparing that to graphics, you can see which one would be the easiest to pull off. Kaimetsu can make graphics. I can make graphics. Anyone can make graphics. But could those graphics be good? It depends on if you know what you're doing or not. Anyone can pick up a mouse and draw a stick figure on MS Paint.
And yet again, we ARE talking about Graal and all. Graphics, in this sense, don't have to be taken that seriously.

Umm I dont know about you but it does require a bit of brain power and thinking process to make good graphic...

[Deek2]

Originally posted by davidpsy

Umm I dont know about you but it does require a bit of brain power and thinking process to make good graphic...

That may be so, but I think it would differ from person to person. To you it might take some thinking process while compared to another person it may be uncompareable.

[DustyPorViva]

To me art comes natural, so there isn't that much thinking involved with what I do.

When I do lighting, it comes natural where the shadow falls and where the light hits. I don't have to even think about it, I just draw it.

[davidpsy]

Originally posted by DustyPorViva
To me art comes natural, so there isn't that much thinking involved with what I do.

When I do lighting, it comes natural where the shadow falls and where the light hits. I don't have to even think about it, I just draw it.

It does me too but I guess I'm more aware of my thoughts then most.

[Deek2]

Originally posted by davidpsy



It does me too but I guess I'm more aware of my thoughts then most.

If I wanted to, I could do the same. The thoughts have always existed when I do my work, there's just no need to use them other than why they're there.

[LordZen]

I know that I certainly can think for myself. :o

And hey, just because I am the gfx admin doesnt mean that I have to let my judgement become clouded and stand up for graphics in every since for every dumb argument that comes my way, like I'm a hero or something, which I'm not.

Its pretty damn clear that script can stand alone to make a game work and be fun, but if you had just graphics they would sit there and do nothing--no interactivity--it'd just be a pretty picture to stare at.

Graphics do help, they can help alot--but only if it is adding to and inhancing an already really great code.

Scripting is the base of any game's infrastructure. erm, duh lol.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by davidpsy
So are you saying that all artists are stupid and that programmer are smart?

Well, only that programmers are generally more intelligent and more logically-minded than artists. I'm not saying that all artists are stupid or that all programmers are hyper-intelligent. It was just a little riposte, people weren't supposed to take it to heart.

Originally posted by Kinatt
Deek arguing with kaimetsu is like arguing with a monkey

So, now you're back to hating me again? If you stick to your usual cycle, I guess that means you'll be apologising and asking for forgiveness in maybe... two weeks? I'll see you then.

Anyway, Kaimetsu knows nothing of graphics leave it at that.

I don't need to know anything about making graphics in order to know two things:

1) Quality of art isn't as significant to a game as gameplay.
2) Programmers tend to be of above-average intelligence, while artists do not. Also artists predominantly use the creative sides of their brains, while programmers use the logical side.

and Kaimetsu if you think graphics people are dumb, why don't you stay the hell out of the graphics forum and let lord zen mod it?

I'm not here as a moderator, I'm here as a user. My name was mentioned, so I came to redress the balance.

As for the rest of your spiteful bile: Grow up. If you came back to the forums simply to flame people then you're not going to be staying long.

[Kinatt]

Originally posted by LordZen
I know that I certainly can think for myself. :o

And hey, just because I am the gfx admin doesnt mean that I have to let my judgement become clouded and stand up for graphics in every since for every dumb argument that comes my way, like I'm a hero or something, which I'm not.

Its pretty damn clear that script can stand alone to make a game work and be fun, but if you had just graphics they would sit there and do nothing--no interactivity--it'd just be a pretty picture to stare at.

Graphics do help, they can help alot--but only if it is adding to and inhancing an already really great code.

Scripting is the base of any game's infrastructure. erm, duh lol.

Zen, I do not like you. I was not stating that you were to stick up for "graphics people". I was stating that you were competent enough to admin this part of the forum (which you just said you weren't?)

Basically, you just defended Kaimetsu saying Graphics people do not think. Again you really do a great job of representing the graphics community as GGT admin and as moderator of these forums, I solute you.

And no Kaimetsu, I am not here to flame people. I took your comment personally since I create graphics.

It seems unlike the rest of the crew here, I do think when I am doing graphics.

It was just a little riposte, people weren't supposed to take it to heart.

Great place to use that sort of riposte that's like going into an all african-american college and start shouting racist terms.

[davidpsy]

Originally posted by Kinatt


Zen, I do not like you. I was not stating that you were to stick up for "graphics people". I was stating that you were competent enough to admin this part of the forum (which you just said you weren't?)

Basically, you just defended Kaimetsu saying Graphics people do not think. Again you really do a great job of representing the graphics community as GGT admin and as moderator of these forums, I solute you.

And no Kaimetsu, I am not here to flame people. I took your comment personally since I create graphics.

It seems unlike the rest of the crew here, I do think when I am doing graphics.



Great place to use that sort of riposte that's like going into an all african-american college and start shouting racist terms.

I think when I make graphic...

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by Kinatt
Great place to use that sort of riposte that's like going into an all african-american college and start shouting racist terms.

Hardly. My comment was directed at a single person, it wasn't shouted to all in range. Furthermore, the wording and the context implied that it wasn't a literal statement. If you can't tell the difference then that's your problem, not mine.

[GoZelda]

I read this whole thread, and well, think of it like this:
Scripting is important.
But, to visualize all scripting, graphics are needed. Even though you need very little graphics to have "a game", the more and the better graphics are included with the great scripting, the more enjoyable the game will be.