Who do you respect the most on Graal?

[Old_Days]

I dont respect anyone on here, its still a game, not life.


But I try to be nice whenever I can :]

[Door]

A game that's a part of your life, apparently!

[DarkRenji]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth

i'm not doing this with you is incorrect

ok are you scared? is incorrect

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Door

People do not pay for something they don't think is worth the value it's being sold at. There has to be a mutual agreement on the equal value of the exchange from both ends. In a free market, if someone thinks that a product or service is too expensive, they just look elsewhere.

The problem with Graal is that it is too expensive for what it offers. What does it offer, I ask you?
- A disjointed community rationed out onto diverse servers, each created by a collective but also disjointed effort.
- A chance to create, improve, or otherwise contribute to the game itself, with almost no limitations or restrictions.
- Membership, at a cost. Without paying, players are highly limited from playing or contributing, and in the latter case, no compensation (or appreciation from management) is ever offered in any form.

So if we players feel that the game is not worth the cost, it's natural for us to do what all consumers are wont to do: leave. We should go and find a better game at a better price elsewhere. But we don't. Kinda curious, isn't it?

Why don't we leave?

Whether it be loyalty to a game they've played for many years, strong social ties with the community, or an interest in expressing creativity/being able to contribute to the welfare of other players, we have stayed. But we complain, we nag, we beg for change, we offer incentives, assistance, advice, tutorials, and overall motivation to change. We tried positive motivation. That was years ago. Now we've come to resort to negative. So why are you complaining about us? We're here, sticking with the game, many of us even still paying. We should be good, smart consumers and leave, but instead we are trying from the bottoms of our hearts to improve a game that we think is worth improving.

We are not going to lure fresh new minds into the pit we're stuck in, miserable and fighting just to be told "You are only making things worse" when in reality, we are the only thing keeping this game from completely sinking away. That is why you come to us begging for a new website. Does it come from the top? Hell no, they don't care. That is why you expect us to advertise and bring in new people to contribute in the same way we do, miserable and seeking true change. The worst thing you can do in that kind of situation is remain apathetic--or worse, content with it. Why accept what is wrong? Or even portray it as though it is all sunshine and grape vines to the ignorant? You should be ashamed of yourself, and you should stop protecting the people who need a serious wake up call.

Graal is like an apple rotting from the core outward. We are the skin, the only thing holding it together right now, and we are hard and sour, but what's important is that the inside, the content be delicious and crisp. Without a healthy core, management to lead the players and provide a quality product through their own sacrifice and hard work, there is nothing to keep the content edible. It's rotting, and it's not coming from those outside the inner circle, we complainers.


Yet for some reason we stay.

I respect people who know what they're talking about. QFT.

[kia345]

Originally Posted by Door

People do not pay for something they don't think is worth the value it's being sold at. There has to be a mutual agreement on the equal value of the exchange from both ends. In a free market, if someone thinks that a product or service is too expensive, they just look elsewhere.

The problem with Graal is that it is too expensive for what it offers. What does it offer, I ask you?
- A disjointed community rationed out onto diverse servers, each created by a collective but also disjointed effort.
- A chance to create, improve, or otherwise contribute to the game itself, with almost no limitations or restrictions.
- Membership, at a cost. Without paying, players are highly limited from playing or contributing, and in the latter case, no compensation (or appreciation from management) is ever offered in any form.

So if we players feel that the game is not worth the cost, it's natural for us to do what all consumers are wont to do: leave. We should go and find a better game at a better price elsewhere. But we don't. Kinda curious, isn't it?

Why don't we leave?

Whether it be loyalty to a game they've played for many years, strong social ties with the community, or an interest in expressing creativity/being able to contribute to the welfare of other players, we have stayed. But we complain, we nag, we beg for change, we offer incentives, assistance, advice, tutorials, and overall motivation to change. We tried positive motivation. That was years ago. Now we've come to resort to negative. So why are you complaining about us? We're here, sticking with the game, many of us even still paying. We should be good, smart consumers and leave, but instead we are trying from the bottoms of our hearts to improve a game that we think is worth improving.

We are not going to lure fresh new minds into the pit we're stuck in, miserable and fighting just to be told "You are only making things worse" when in reality, we are the only thing keeping this game from completely sinking away. That is why you come to us begging for a new website. Does it come from the top? Hell no, they don't care. That is why you expect us to advertise and bring in new people to contribute in the same way we do, miserable and seeking true change. The worst thing you can do in that kind of situation is remain apathetic--or worse, content with it. Why accept what is wrong? Or even portray it as though it is all sunshine and grape vines to the ignorant? You should be ashamed of yourself, and you should stop protecting the people who need a serious wake up call.

Graal is like an apple rotting from the core outward. We are the skin, the only thing holding it together right now, and we are hard and sour, but what's important is that the inside, the content be delicious and crisp. Without a healthy core, management to lead the players and provide a quality product through their own sacrifice and hard work, there is nothing to keep the content edible. It's rotting, and it's not coming from those outside the inner circle, we complainers.


Yet for some reason we stay.

Spoken like a true Prime!


edit: Also, Bell, and the PWA in general, look a lot less respectable, considering the only news I've heard about them doing anything has been negative.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Door

People do not pay for something they don't think is worth the value it's being sold at. There has to be a mutual agreement on the equal value of the exchange from both ends. In a free market, if someone thinks that a product or service is too expensive, they just look elsewhere.

The problem with Graal is that it is too expensive for what it offers. What does it offer, I ask you?
- A disjointed community rationed out onto diverse servers, each created by a collective but also disjointed effort.
- A chance to create, improve, or otherwise contribute to the game itself, with almost no limitations or restrictions.
- Membership, at a cost. Without paying, players are highly limited from playing or contributing, and in the latter case, no compensation (or appreciation from management) is ever offered in any form.

So if we players feel that the game is not worth the cost, it's natural for us to do what all consumers are wont to do: leave. We should go and find a better game at a better price elsewhere. But we don't. Kinda curious, isn't it?

Why don't we leave?

Whether it be loyalty to a game they've played for many years, strong social ties with the community, or an interest in expressing creativity/being able to contribute to the welfare of other players, we have stayed. But we complain, we nag, we beg for change, we offer incentives, assistance, advice, tutorials, and overall motivation to change. We tried positive motivation. That was years ago. Now we've come to resort to negative. So why are you complaining about us? We're here, sticking with the game, many of us even still paying. We should be good, smart consumers and leave, but instead we are trying from the bottoms of our hearts to improve a game that we think is worth improving.

We are not going to lure fresh new minds into the pit we're stuck in, miserable and fighting just to be told "You are only making things worse" when in reality, we are the only thing keeping this game from completely sinking away. That is why you come to us begging for a new website. Does it come from the top? Hell no, they don't care. That is why you expect us to advertise and bring in new people to contribute in the same way we do, miserable and seeking true change. The worst thing you can do in that kind of situation is remain apathetic--or worse, content with it. Why accept what is wrong? Or even portray it as though it is all sunshine and grape vines to the ignorant? You should be ashamed of yourself, and you should stop protecting the people who need a serious wake up call.

Graal is like an apple rotting from the core outward. We are the skin, the only thing holding it together right now, and we are hard and sour, but what's important is that the inside, the content be delicious and crisp. Without a healthy core, management to lead the players and provide a quality product through their own sacrifice and hard work, there is nothing to keep the content edible. It's rotting, and it's not coming from those outside the inner circle, we complainers.


Yet for some reason we stay.

I really agree with pretty much everything you said here. I think you bring up incredible points, a lot of which intertwine with my own thoughts as well. The only difference is the negativity, and I understand your viewpoint. Honestly, I think some negativity is important because it can keep people in line, but too much negativity is very demotivating. This is where it becomes a problem.

Believe me, believe everyone who is an administrator under Stefan and unixmad, we understand that there are a lot of issues. We are not just turning a blind eye to the situation, and we try everything in our power to make things better. However, it has been an up-hill struggle, and this is also why I have been perhaps a bit too short tempered with the complainers lately. We are all fighting this, not just you guys.

[Geno]

i would have to go with stefan and unixmad cause they help out a lot

[Luda]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Believe me, believe everyone who is an administrator under Stefan and unixmad, we understand that there are a lot of issues. We are not just turning a blind eye to the situation, and we try everything in our power to make things better. However, it has been an up-hill struggle, and this is also why I have been perhaps a bit too short tempered with the complainers lately. We are all fighting this, not just you guys.

I smell something

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I really agree with pretty much everything you said here. I think you bring up incredible points, a lot of which intertwine with my own thoughts as well. The only difference is the negativity, and I understand your viewpoint. Honestly, I think some negativity is important because it can keep people in line, but too much negativity is very demotivating. This is where it becomes a problem.

Believe me, believe everyone who is an administrator under Stefan and unixmad, we understand that there are a lot of issues. We are not just turning a blind eye to the situation, and we try everything in our power to make things better. However, it has been an up-hill struggle, and this is also why I have been perhaps a bit too short tempered with the complainers lately. We are all fighting this, not just you guys.

Agreed.

[kia345]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I really agree with pretty much everything you said here. I think you bring up incredible points, a lot of which intertwine with my own thoughts as well. The only difference is the negativity, and I understand your viewpoint. Honestly, I think some negativity is important because it can keep people in line, but too much negativity is very demotivating. This is where it becomes a problem.

Believe me, believe everyone who is an administrator under Stefan and unixmad, we understand that there are a lot of issues. We are not just turning a blind eye to the situation, and we try everything in our power to make things better. However, it has been an up-hill struggle, and this is also why I have been perhaps a bit too short tempered with the complainers lately. We are all fighting this, not just you guys.

Quit speaking for all of your cohorts Tig, just because you mean well doesn't mean everyone does.

[Door]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I really agree with pretty much everything you said here. I think you bring up incredible points, a lot of which intertwine with my own thoughts as well. The only difference is the negativity, and I understand your viewpoint. Honestly, I think some negativity is important because it can keep people in line, but too much negativity is very demotivating. This is where it becomes a problem.

Believe me, believe everyone who is an administrator under Stefan and unixmad, we understand that there are a lot of issues. We are not just turning a blind eye to the situation, and we try everything in our power to make things better. However, it has been an up-hill struggle, and this is also why I have been perhaps a bit too short tempered with the complainers lately. We are all fighting this, not just you guys.

Like I said in mine, we tried being positive for a long time. Things have only gotten worse. I think really you have no defense to what I said in that post at all, since the only points you brought up are
A. We are too negative (already addressed it in my earlier post and here), and
B. You know all this already.

Oh?

You..
You know all of what I said already? Wow. Well thanks for confirming everything that I just said. You know it all already, yet you're 'trying to make things better' by telling us to shut up and be happy with the rubbish that is Graal?

As far as I'm concerned, you and the other PWAs deserve of a lot more respect than Stefan and Unixmad do. Or at least you would, if you weren't acting as their brownshirts. That's all I see right now, and in my opinion, your post says it almost outright. You knew all of what I said already. You agree with everything but my negativity, which has already been explained a million times--it's the only thing we have left to try, after working so hard to be positive for so long. All of this, yet you still defend shutting us up, telling us that our complaints are invalid, that we needn't be negative, that we shouldn't speak badly about the people who are taking our money and doing absolutely nothing to earn it.

So what if we don't want to develop? We're not paying to do the work for Stefan and Unixmad, we're paying to play a game. We shouldn't have to change it at all to be happy with it. We should definitely never be expected to do the advertising, make all the content, and design a website for the game we're paying to play.

People who make servers should not be paying for them at all. They are bringing in new players and thus revenue to Cyberjoueurs, so they should be welcomed to develop and perhaps even given a cut, if this was set up fairly. People who devote their time and money to this game without showing their distaste for how unfair it is are not saints, however. Like you Tig, these players only encourage and by allowing it to happen and even funding it. Go ahead and keep paying those two up at the top to do nothing, and let's see how soon they get a change of heart and decide to suddenly start working for what they earn.

No updates, no gratitude, they don't even show themselves on the forum.

Didn't you say something about how you wanted a new website design in order to inspire Stefan to become involved again or something along those lines? This coming from a high admin in the game, so I trust your word there. Sounds like perhaps even you are coming to the end of your line, and I don't blame you there at all. I think it's time that we step back and say that we won't be paying anymore when it is totally unfair. Rather than advertising the game to get in new ignorant victims, we should be telling them to stay away, boycotting. That is what having a free market is all about.

But instead we just stay here and complain, because we complainers are too good-natured to use such aggressive tactics, even though they certainly are more called-for than what we do now.

Originally Posted by Darlene159

Agreed.

Ditto for you, toots.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Door

Like I said in mine, we tried being positive for a long time. Things have only gotten worse. I think really you have no defense to what I said in that post at all, since the only points you brought up are
A. We are too negative (already addressed it in my earlier post and here), and
B. You know all this already.

Oh?

You..
You know all of what I said already? Wow. Well thanks for confirming everything that I just said. You know it all already, yet you're 'trying to make things better' by telling us to shut up and be happy with the rubbish that is Graal?

As far as I'm concerned, you and the other PWAs deserve of a lot more respect than Stefan and Unixmad do. Or at least you would, if you weren't acting as their brownshirts. That's all I see right now, and in my opinion, your post says it almost outright. You knew all of what I said already. You agree with everything but my negativity, which has already been explained a million times--it's the only thing we have left to try, after working so hard to be positive for so long. All of this, yet you still defend shutting us up, telling us that our complaints are invalid, that we needn't be negative, that we shouldn't speak badly about the people who are taking our money and doing absolutely nothing to earn it.

So what if we don't want to develop? We're not paying to do the work for Stefan and Unixmad, we're paying to play a game. We shouldn't have to change it at all to be happy with it. We should definitely never be expected to do the advertising, make all the content, and design a website for the game we're paying to play.

People who make servers should not be paying for them at all. They are bringing in new players and thus revenue to Cyberjoueurs, so they should be welcomed to develop and perhaps even given a cut, if this was set up fairly. People who devote their time and money to this game without showing their distaste for how unfair it is are not saints, however. Like you Tig, these players only encourage and by allowing it to happen and even funding it. Go ahead and keep paying those two up at the top to do nothing, and let's see how soon they get a change of heart and decide to suddenly start working for what they earn.

No updates, no gratitude, they don't even show themselves on the forum.

Didn't you say something about how you wanted a new website design in order to inspire Stefan to become involved again or something along those lines? This coming from a high admin in the game, so I trust your word there. Sounds like perhaps even you are coming to the end of your line, and I don't blame you there at all. I think it's time that we step back and say that we won't be paying anymore when it is totally unfair. Rather than advertising the game to get in new ignorant victims, we should be telling them to stay away, boycotting. That is what having a free market is all about.

But instead we just stay here and complain, because we complainers are too good-natured to use such aggressive tactics, even though they certainly are more called-for than what we do now.



Ditto for you, toots.

oh shut up; long diatribes and rants about "what should be done" don't work on who you are actually trying to talk too, and these guys have heard it too many times for it to be repeated. the only thing you can tell the moderators and PWA and other types of global staff is that unless they quit doing their job and no one steps in to do it for them, then CJ and all the other "higher ups" are not going to fix anything. they won't step in and create content for something they don't get a lot of revenue from, and frankly i bet has caused them more trouble than they asked for both on the internet and in real life

until everyone stops doing the work, and instead create some sort of demand for action from them, we will see more of the same. of course the only way it could get any worse is if they close down the game entirely

or this thread gets closed and replies deleted and everything is covered up; that's usually what happens

[taylor]

I also have to give it up for those who try and work hard here on Graal, that would be; Managers, Admins, PWA's, as well as local developers.

[Door]

Originally Posted by Hiro

oh shut up; long diatribes and rants about "what should be done" don't work on who you are actually trying to talk too, and these guys have heard it too many times for it to be repeated. the only thing you can tell the moderators and PWA and other types of global staff is that unless they quit doing their job and no one steps in to do it for them, then CJ and all the other "higher ups" are not going to fix anything. they won't step in and create content for something they don't get a lot of revenue from, and frankly i bet has caused them more trouble than they asked for both on the internet and in real life

until everyone stops doing the work, and instead create some sort of demand for action from them, we will see more of the same. of course the only way it could get any worse is if they close down the game entirely

or this thread gets closed and replies deleted and everything is covered up; that's usually what happens

Have a sense of self-empowerment, man! We can and do make a difference in this game all the time. In fact we the players are the only ones who do! So it's our duty to ourselves and to the game itself to do our best to improve it. If long diatribes and rants about "what should be done" are all that you can manage, why not do them?

I'm not much for programming or art, for management or marketing.. but I am good with words (at least I think so), and I think that, whatever it is you're good at, you should always use it to make a difference or at least try to.

This is life, it's not some kind of blob that just shifts us through one moment to the next. It's something we are constantly changing and affecting ourselves. If you just sit back and let things be controlled by the few on top who know how to make it work for themselves, then you're not only giving yourself the short end of the stick, but all your peers and comrades as well. Stand up for what you know is right, regardless of how little you can say or do. Every little bit counts, and with enough effort from everyone, we can make a HUGE difference here!

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Door

Have a sense of self-empowerment, man! We can and do make a difference in this game all the time. In fact we the players are the only ones who do! So it's our duty to ourselves and to the game itself to do our best to improve it. If long diatribes and rants about "what should be done" are all that you can manage, why not do them?

I'm not much for programming or art, for management or marketing.. but I am good with words (at least I think so), and I think that, whatever it is you're good at, you should always use it to make a difference or at least try to.

This is life, it's not some kind of blob that just shifts us through one moment to the next. It's something we are constantly changing and affecting ourselves. If you just sit back and let things be controlled by the few on top who know how to make it work for themselves, then you're not only giving yourself the short end of the stick, but all your peers and comrades as well. Stand up for what you know is right, regardless of how little you can say or do. Every little bit counts, and with enough effort from everyone, we can make a HUGE difference here!

i've been silenced from doing so on more than just one occasion i can think of. the fact is, it's masses of players that make the difference, not just one or even a couple. we can all agree and talk about things, sure, but once mass action takes place to hurt the powers that be in a place that forces them to act, and the action isn't bottle-necked by some different form of "player's" opinions and goals, then we aren't going to get any answers. i'm not even sure they listen to their global staff on these issues, and they're their global ****ing staff |8

i agree with you on all points about graal, and on all points about action. but, as you may have read in this thread, i'm not a respected person on the forums, nor are many people; only a few are well known throughout graal and have access to the types of floors to actually discuss these issues with people who run the game, and they are not apart of the action we players want to see, and they agree with us