Log mass messages

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

As someone who actually moderates the game, I would have to say that harassment is an issue, whether it is or not for you is not the problem being presented. Perhaps some of the harassment is brought onto themselves but that doesn't we should turn a blind eye to the situation.

As someone that actually plays the game and actually sees what goes on, as opposed to just reading tickets of those that are brazen enough to complain after local staff refuse to deal with them, I say you're blowing things way out of proportion. Harassment isn't a major problem, hell, just log on a server and ask one of their GPs?

Originally Posted by Tigairius

That does not mean they should be completely private from the administrators who run the game, and should not be taken so literally.

Originally Posted by Code of Conduct

Should a player or players be suspected of illegal or abusive activity, GraalOnline reserves the right to use administration tools to monitor individuals' communications via chats and other private messages.

So unless someone is suspected of doing anything illegal, the chat logs shouldn't be applied to everyone but rather suspected individuals only. And no, I'm pretty sure it's not acceptable to deem every Graal user as a suspect.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Exactly. We are not trying to moderate what you talk about in your life, just keep the trash off of Graal. People can chat on Graal no problem while still being moderated, providing that they are not talking about illegal things. I fail to see the problem.

Players don't like it when everything they say is being logged, watched, or both. Then again as a moderator I wouldn't expect you to understand.

And p.s, sup

[Darlene159]

I dont feel like quoting everything, but I completely agree with what Tig has said in this thread.

[Crimson2005]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I dont feel like quoting everything, but I completely agree with what Tig has said in this thread.

Yea because it aligns with your totalitarian ideology. You don't even play anymore, I think you're a bit out of touch with the game and its players.

Also Tig, it wasn't so long ago you were promoting free speech and language and condemning unnecessary censorship but since you became PWA or whatever you've gone and abandoned all your principles to impress the higher-ups, gtfo.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Crimson2005

Yea because it aligns with your totalitarian ideology. You don't even play anymore, I think you're a bit out of touch with the game and its players.

Also Tig, it wasn't so long ago you were promoting free speech and language and condemning unnecessary censorship but since you became PWA or whatever you've gone and abandoned all your principles to impress the higher-ups, gtfo.

What you and Crono seem to be misunderstanding is that censorship and logging messages are two different things. I am not asking for messages to be censored, I am asking for it to be logged for security-related issues.

[salesman]

I believe mass messages should be logged because they are in no way "private", but PMs should not be logged at all.

I can use AIM to talk privately with someone from Graal, but how will I give them my screen name without it ending up on a Graal server somewhere? Total invasion of privacy.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Crimson2005

Yea because it aligns with your totalitarian ideology. You don't even play anymore, I think you're a bit out of touch with the game and its players.

I know that the foul language and harassment has gotten worse over the years, and know from experience how hard it is to prove and how easy it is to fake. I still play enough (not a lot currently because of a slow computer) to see these things happening a lot, and have seen horrid masses.
It's about time someone wants to do something about it.
Harrassment IS a big problem on Graal.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Crono

So unless someone is suspected of doing anything illegal, the chat logs shouldn't be applied to everyone but rather suspected individuals only. And no, I'm pretty sure it's not acceptable to deem every Graal user as a suspect.

That's not exactly what it necessarily means, it says GraalOnline can use tools to monitor the chat, meaning that it's already logged, and we, the GraalOnline staff, can use that tool to monitor what was said. Try to remember that monitor has a past-tense meaning as well.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I personally believe all PMs should be logged, not only mass messages. I know this is a major invasion of privacy, which is something I don't generally advocate, but in this special case. If not local staff, then tenured global staff should be able to view the history between people in order to help solve disputes of claimed harassment.

Absolutely not.

Solve complaints about stolen passwords being spread around, we could search for the account name being discussed in PMs and find the person(s) sending out the password.

Find discussion of anti-graal (spreading out links to trainers, people admitting to the use of such, etc).

This is a silly reason, I can't see this being used hardly at all. Why not just change the password? I wouldn't be so much opposed if you could search through PMs and see a list of accounts who have said the phrase, as long as you can't see full-text messages. Obviously, the full text would have to be stored somewhere, but it should only be accessible Stefan.

Handle cases of mass messages containing inappropriate things (pornography, passwords, illegal discussions), and have solid proof to back it up.

Mass message logging is great.

Find additional information on account scams, item scams, and allow us to make the communities a safer place with proper proof.

It's not worth the loss of privacy.

Solve problems with extreme cases of harassment.

I agree with others, if they are really being harassed, I think it'd be possible for us to tell in at least some way. They can always use the ignore list, and if that fails, they can send in screenshots of PMs, etc. I wouldn't be opposed to a log saying when PMs where sent (and who the recipient was) so you could see if the players are actually talking. Also, as someone else said, a way to validate PMs would be great (e.g. some kind of hash).

It's just not worth the loss of privacy, and I know there would be cases of PWAs and other globals "snooping" on others.

Originally Posted by Frankie

so what you're saying is that GPs would be randomly reading through mass message logs to try and find things they deem inappropriate? I understand going through the logs when trying to resolve an issue, but going through them at your own leisure to find people to punish is just pathetic.

That's not what I said at all. If a player PMs us saying someone else has been massing about them, and we've received no masses, how are we supposed to check it?

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

This is a silly reason, I can't see this being used hardly at all. Why not just change the password?

So, you're essentially saying that if someone gets shot in the street, why not just put the person in the hospital and forget about the shooter?

Originally Posted by cbk1994

It's not worth the loss of privacy.

I have yet to see a good reason why, you have plenty of privacy in e-mails, AIM, Yahoo, MSN, etc. You could easily say "well, let's take it into AIM" before the conversation becomes too personal.

Originally Posted by cbk1994

I agree with others, if they are really being harassed, I think it'd be possible for us to tell in at least some way. They can always use the ignore list, and if that fails, they can send in screenshots of PMs, etc. I wouldn't be opposed to a log saying when PMs where sent (and who the recipient was) so you could see if the players are actually talking. Also, as someone else said, a way to validate PMs would be great (e.g. some kind of hash).

I thought you of anyone would know how easily screenshots can be altered, but just in case you didn't, let me demonstrate.



Keep in mind, now, that I have no photoshop on this computer and just using Microsoft Paint right now.

Originally Posted by cbk1994

It's just not worth the loss of privacy, and I know there would be cases of PWAs and other globals "snooping" on others.

Well, for one, globals shouldn't be doing that, and I doubt they would without a reason, we all do have lives and don't spend our time sitting around thinking of how we can invade your privacy. In the event that something like that did occur, you should have taken private matters into MSN/AIM to begin with. I definitely agree, it would be scary to give many people access to such content (PMs) but I also think it's necessary to give someone access to such things.

[Scary_Sock]

I laughed so hard at the altered image, Tig!

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

What you and Crono seem to be misunderstanding is that censorship and logging messages are two different things. I am not asking for messages to be censored, I am asking for it to be logged for security-related issues.

How is monitoring what players PM any better than censorship? If security was that big of a problem (only a problem once every year or two when either a hacker group releases some trainer that idiots download and use or register to some dodgy forum) then keywords would trigger the log to be saved. If I was trying to screw Graal over I sure as hell wouldn't do it over Graal PM's to begin with, I'd use e-mail, AIM, MSN, Yahoo, etc.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

That's not exactly what it necessarily means, it says GraalOnline can use tools to monitor the chat, meaning that it's already logged, and we, the GraalOnline staff, can use that tool to monitor what was said. Try to remember that monitor has a past-tense meaning as well.

Yes that is exactly what it means. It says that players can be monitored, sure, but it goes into detail and makes it pretty clear that it's only in the case where a player is suspected of doing something illegal or abusive.

I wouldn't mind if Graal was a professional game but it's not. I dont want the possibility of local staff to go through my private logs, I by no means trust them a single bit. Even if the tool was restricted to globals I would still no longer trust PM's anymore (as I do now) and be very uncomfortable pming private information to my friends. There is only one global I can absolutely trust which says a lot. If I'm not doing anything wrong I don't want to be logged and monitored, it's as simple as that.

For over 10 years Graal has been a game where you could privately send friends messages, where you don't feel like you're being watched around every corner. There was no censorship unless it was bad harassing, but then a GP usually stepped in if it was serious. The beauty of Graal is that you don't need to use a seperate client to message your friends, you have PM's, guild messages, mass messages, etc. Sure people used AIM and such but that was mostly for sending files and contacting them when they weren't online. If such a log system were to be implemented you'd simply be killing yet another aspect of Graal which I guess would be quite handy for cyberjoueurs as they've been on a killing spree lately!

[Bell]

I have already discussed this with Stefan, he does not approve of the logging of personal messages unless there is a specific reason. In those cases its been to confirm whether someone is participating in an illegal activity or is a threat to Graal security. Its rare and targeted. Staff pm's are also logged on occasion while on tag to determine if they are abusing chat commands. This is something they are usually fully aware of though.

I'm fairly certain that on the larger games where history is recorded the staff that can access it have to sign a confidentiality agreement. I believe some of the former global staff also had to sign an agreement. To my knowledge that hasn't been done since Ibonic though. IF such loggings were to ever be put in place again, I would hope that is something that would be required for anyone having access to the information.

Quite often people exchange more personal information such as addresses or phone numbers through private message and I would prefer that not be something given freely to the public by someone that couldn't be held accountable for their actions.

[Tigairius]

In the end, I am only stating my opinion, and my opinion for wanting to add logging is just as valid as Crono's opinion opposing it, just two entirely different points of view. Either way, our opinions are seldom heard completely by the people we would like to have listening anyways.

Originally Posted by Bell

I'm fairly certain that on the larger games where history is recorded the staff that can access it have to sign a confidentiality agreement. I believe some of the former global staff also had to sign an agreement. To my knowledge that hasn't been done since Ibonic though. IF such loggings were to ever be put in place again, I would hope that is something that would be required for anyone having access to the information.

Quite often people exchange more personal information such as addresses or phone numbers through private message and I would prefer that not be something given freely to the public by someone that couldn't be held accountable for their actions.

I agree with this post wholeheartedly. I definitely think anyone who had access to such things should have to sign a legal agreement not to disclose any sort of that kind of data. I would just like people to understand that the reason I support such actions is not to pry on their private lives, but rather to make our jobs easier and better protect the community.

[Frankie]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

That's not what I said at all. If a player PMs us saying someone else has been massing about them, and we've received no masses, how are we supposed to check it?

then you should of reworded your post because you specifically said "and player's don't report them" which made it seem like you would just look through the logs even if nobody reported anything.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

So, you're essentially saying that if someone gets shot in the street, why not just put the person in the hospital and forget about the shooter?

Is anyone getting shot? You're blowing it way out of proportion.

I have yet to see a good reason why, you have plenty of privacy in e-mails, AIM, Yahoo, MSN, etc. You could easily say "well, let's take it into AIM" before the conversation becomes too personal.

Because PMs are private, and always have been. I'm glad to hear that Stefan wants to keep it this way as well, because I would hate to have to stop using PMs. You're only looking at this from the view of a staff member, but the people who matter are the players. Logging PMs provides minimal benefit to players.

I thought you of anyone would know how easily screenshots can be altered, but just in case you didn't, let me demonstrate.

Originally Posted by Crono

snip

I agree.

Originally Posted by Frankie

then you should of reworded your post because you specifically said "and player's don't report them" which made it seem like you would just look through the logs even if nobody reported anything.

It was worded fine. You drew assumptions.