Revision of the Playerworld Rules

[Skyld]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

2) Maybe say not "All your files are belong to us", but rather "We will protect the copyright/intellectual property rights for your files as long as your server is hosted. If for whatever reason your server is no longer using said files, they become fair use for whatever other Graal server chooses to use them." Something like that, put a positive spin on saying the same thing.

I disagree here. It is better to ensure that users recognise that the ownership of levels, scripts, etc uploaded to GraalOnline servers will be transferred to Cyberjoueurs, otherwise people could say "I don't want to be involved anymore", remove their files from popular servers and then Cyberjoueurs have to suffer because of it. At least this way, Cyberjoueurs have a case against people who cause damage to their property like that.

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by CheeToS2

I'd say a live area is an area a normal player can access without the aid of an adminstrator.

So then we are no longer allowed to develop content in places players cant access on our world? Then release it at a later date? They must have access to it during development when its buggy and not ready for use?

It is a serious security issue to have lots of people with full rights. It's a rule in the IT world to never give anyone more rights than they need to complete their duties, and for good reason. If tons of people can do anything, it's only asking for trouble.

I agree and disagree at the same time, and only from experince. While in most cases if you have a bunch of people running around who can do whatever they want, youll eventually run into some problems. However from my time as Manager on a classic playerworld, I came to find out that even if people have all the rights on the server possible, with the proper direction, they will not clash with one another. Knowing their boundaries is what helps them develop, the rights are perks and could also come in handy later on.

The problem with your analogy is this is NOT the IT world, and the Staff members on a server do not recieve pay for their work. Things have to be a little different.

Many servers also don't keep their own backups and rely on Stefan to provide them when needed. Stefan's pretty busy and it can take days to restore a server sometimes, which results in a lot of lost productivity and angry players.

Stefan doesn't charge for fixing problems

This is a partial double shot in my mind, the game already has a declining playerbase. Players enjoy playing in the game more then posting on the forums because its a much more relaxed enviroment. Its more likely that people would upgrade for the game instead of the forums (when that was an option).

You could have angry players yes because stefan can not get a quick backup, but instead of making tons of rules about it, simply make a clause in the playerworld registeration ->

"We are not responsible for your playerworld content and backups that you do not keep on your own and make no immediate effort to restore them if they are lost"

or something like that.

Also what I was saying about players mistakes making money, players will more likely give their money out to something that is a bit more relaxed, then having books and books of rules to follow. Some of them seem a bit overbearing and are only meant to control the way someone wants to run their server.

[Tyhm]

Originally Posted by CheeToS2

Many servers also don't keep their own backups and rely on Stefan to provide them when needed. Stefan's pretty busy and it can take days to restore a server sometimes, which results in a lot of lost productivity and angry players.

Servers should have the ability to keep - and restore - their own backups. There should be a .gpack filetype, even if it's just a customized Zip file, that stores all a server's weapons, serverconfig, graphics, ganis, etc. - and playerdata for preference - then you should be able to push a button on RC to backup to GPack, restore from GPack, create update file for GPack (just the changes from last backup to make for faster backups - update files can be daily, with monthly or weekly Main Backups), an option to schedule it so the admin can just turn on RC and it'll automatically backup his server on his harddrive...ideally the GPack filetype would be resistant to transferring (maybe a backup GPack has a password equal to/based on the servername, so it's absolutely useless on a server with a different name...but there should be a GPack option for "share these files", when you want to send your little nephew your movement script, level/graphics/ganis and all.) Then Graal could start people out with better than an utterly blank server - you register a server and Poof, here's a handfull of Server Template GPacks to play with - restore the ZeldaClone GPack to have an approximation of Classic, restore the MegaMan GPack to have an approximation of that...

Originally Posted by Skyld

I disagree here. It is better to ensure that users recognise that the ownership of levels, scripts, etc uploaded to GraalOnline servers will be transferred to Cyberjoueurs, otherwise people could say "I don't want to be involved anymore", remove their files from popular servers and then Cyberjoueurs have to suffer because of it. At least this way, Cyberjoueurs have a case against people who cause damage to their property like that.

I agree totally, but in more flowery language - and with a different target. Graal should be able to ressurect a server's levels, scripts, etc, just not by the hand of Unixmad. If I made a crappy server, deleted it, then Unixmad brought it back and started marketing it, I'd be upset - and I'm one of the guys that LIKES the corporate masters. But if I made a crappy server with Com013, I deleted it, HE resurrected it and started marketing it...well, hell, it was half his server anyway, good for him. I might rail against Unixmad anyway for letting it happen, and he can point to the part saying "I never said I'd stop anyone from resurrecting it." And that's my point, Graal needs to say "I won't stop someone from using your discarded server (backup)" and not "I will use your stuff, like it or not."

[CheeToS2]

Originally Posted by Andy0687

So then we are no longer allowed to develop content in places players cant access on our world? Then release it at a later date? They must have access to it during development when its buggy and not ready for use?

What? I think you misunderstood what Houdini wrote (he should probably edit it):

-Manager: Responsible for server content, and should limit uploading to "live" areas of the world.
-Managers should limit the amount of people who have ‘rw’ (read & write) rights to "live" folders, the folders current downloadable levels are in. Management should transfer files into "live" folders from non-live staff folders after checking them.

It doesn't say you can't develop in places players can't access. It is essentially saying you should do your development in a test environment (either an inaccessible level or a dev server), then have someone upload it to the live environment when it's ready by somebody in the administration. I can see how you might misread the first sentence though

I agree and disagree at the same time, and only from experince. While in most cases if you have a bunch of people running around who can do whatever they want, youll eventually run into some problems. However from my time as Manager on a classic playerworld, I came to find out that even if people have all the rights on the server possible, with the proper direction, they will not clash with one another. Knowing their boundaries is what helps them develop, the rights are perks and could also come in handy later on.

The problem with level 4 RCs is not that they will "clash" with each other, it is that giving many people such high access hugely increases the risk that somebody will decide to do something malicious. A level maker, for instance, does not need access to server options, and he/she shouldn't be able to remove the manager from power.

The problem with your analogy is this is NOT the IT world, and the Staff members on a server do not recieve pay for their work. Things have to be a little different.

Graal is very much so involved in the IT world. You have information (levels, npcs, logs, etc), the need to protect it, and the means to protect it. It must be confidential so people can't steal it for other servers, it must have integrity
(no malicious scripts), and it must have availability (no deleted content/dead npcservers). Nobody has any kind of IT title, but the work is definitely there. You are right, people don't receive pay, which is even less reason for them to behave.

This is a partial double shot in my mind, the game already has a declining playerbase. Players enjoy playing in the game more then posting on the forums because its a much more relaxed enviroment. Its more likely that people would upgrade for the game instead of the forums (when that was an option).

What's this have to do with what you quoted

You could have angry players yes because stefan can not get a quick backup, but instead of making tons of rules about it, simply make a clause in the playerworld registeration ->

"We are not responsible for your playerworld content and backups that you do not keep on your own and make no immediate effort to restore them if they are lost"

or something like that.

They aren't angry because nothing about it is in the terms of service, they are angry because they can't play since some rogue level 4 RC just removed all the staff and content.

Also what I was saying about players mistakes making money, players will more likely give their money out to something that is a bit more relaxed, then having books and books of rules to follow. Some of them seem a bit overbearing and are only meant to control the way someone wants to run their server.

I am kind of torn about this. People might not like having rules to follow, yes, but following them will lead to a better experience if the rules are written well.

[Devil]

I think you should end the conversation about the uploading your work and Graal owning it topic.

It's never going to change, so don't waste your time.

[HoudiniMan]

The "live" thing needs to be re-written apparently, but it was trying to imply this:

LATMan gets a folder /levels/staff/LATMan that he can access and upload work to, and LATAdminMan or ManagerMan can move completed levels to /levels/overworld/lollerbar/

This way the entire LAT team doesn't need to have rw rights to /overworld/* which could result in planted scripts, deletions, etc. and just isn't necessary to work.

I suppose I chose "live" meaning if the level were deleted it would disrupt gameplay, such as if LATMan blows a gasket and quits, deletes everything he can (his folder), and logs off... the playable server is still fine.

As for the rights, I have yet to see anybody make a solid argument why they would need more than 2 level 4 RCs and 3 level 3 RCs if everybody is doing their jobs.

[Devil]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

As for the rights, I have yet to see anybody make a solid argument why they would need more than 2 level 4 RCs and 3 level 3 RCs if everybody is doing their jobs.

For the simple fact it's not needed.

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by CheeToS2

What? I think you misunderstood what Houdini wrote (he should probably edit it):

Yes I did. Thats my mistake and after explination i understand what was meant now

The problem with level 4 RCs is not that they will "clash" with each other, it is that giving many people such high access hugely increases the risk that somebody will decide to do something malicious.

Fair enough, and I agree, but just because the chance is there does that mean all servers should instantly be limited?

Nobody has any kind of IT title, but the work is definitely there. You are right, people don't receive pay, which is even less reason for them to behave.

I was thinking of it as a hobby, people dont misbehave very often with their hobbys (assuming they are not already self-destructive to begin with). Making rules which seem overbearing is just going to cause the people who could have the higher rights to find some other way to do things.

For example in the "Live" world example Houdini made, just because your level is in overworld/testlevels/LATMan dosent mean LATMan cant make malicious scripts on his testlevels and in the end, disrupt gameplay anyways. Its a risk you have to take, so why make it seem like you are trying to control paying customers choices when one way or another, something could happen?

What's this have to do with what you quoted

Ah, I guess I didnt explain myself well enough, while Stefan dosent charge for fixing problems, if people see they will be entirely limited in what they develop and how they control it, they may seek to find another alternitive to develop their product. While people may make mistakes online with rights and such, graal is more likely to benefit in the long run from just letting things happen.

They aren't angry because nothing about it is in the terms of service, they are angry because they can't play since some rogue level 4 RC just removed all the staff and content.

I understand that but if they saw that now graal isnt taking responsibility or dosent need to be on the front as soon as something happens to restore their content, they may still be upset yes, but they will have something to look at and go "Oh, this is how long it might take".

No one here right now can say for sure exactily how long any kind of customer service might take, and that should be a priority over writing some new rules.

I am kind of torn about this. People might not like having rules to follow, yes, but following them will lead to a better experience if the rules are written well.

Thats true and I suppose thats why we are also discussing them. Its better that something is drafted that looks good, sounds good, and will work good, rather then just passing whatever and watching if it works.

Its just a matter of making sure that they are written so players dont say "Well, for 100 dollars a year I can have a ton of people try to control my content and what i do online, while i have to also upgrade accounts to get people to work on my server, or for 100 or so dollars forever, I could try to experiment with the Torque 2d engine"

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by Andy0687

For example in the "Live" world example Houdini made, just because your level is in overworld/testlevels/LATMan dosent mean LATMan cant make malicious scripts on his testlevels and in the end, disrupt gameplay anyways. Its a risk you have to take, so why make it seem like you are trying to control paying customers choices when one way or another, something could happen?

Well, I'm sure my LATs would be irked, but if I ran a server their folders would not be listed in the folder config as having levels in them, and hence not be accessible even by warp. It would be a "turn in" folder only, until I moved it to a live (accessible) folder. However, there is nothing that requires an LAT to have their level online to test. Sure, they may employ simple scripts like doors and such, but the NATs can make those work and it solves the problem of standardizing "the best way to do a door" if the scripters are the ones doing it.

No one here right now can say for sure exactily how long any kind of customer service might take, and that should be a priority over writing some new rules.

We all do what is within our ability to do, man.

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

Well, I'm sure my LATs would be irked, but if I ran a server their folders would not be listed in the folder config as having levels in them, and hence not be accessible even by warp. It would be a "turn in" folder only

That could work too, but if you step on enough staff members toes who is going to be left to work? Im just asking because some (very skilled) people would probably not do as much work if they were very restricted, that comes with the whole not being paid for what we do thing.

We all do what is within our ability to do, man.

Believe me I understand, that wasnt meant to be a shot at you or anything, I hope it didnt come off that way. I was just saying, with four globals on the staff team, not including Stefan and Unixmad, support is going to be at an all time slow. It would be nice to see that improved along with a set of rules, ya know?

[Devil]

That's being worked on :P

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by Devil

That's being worked on :P

You act as though you are officially speaking for Unixmad and his company. Also you didnt really include anything else but a one liner so no one will know what you were talking about.

[Devil]

OH yes, you can actually gather I talk on behalf of them.

I'm just saying myself and Houdini were talking about this last night and were trying to work on something to put forth to the directors to get them on the damn ball.

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

More like... remake.

I'm not even going to link to the old ones because they were last updated in 2003, and a lot of the rules need adjusting to even fit in today.

So, I would like everybody's opinion on what rules need to be officialized, revised, etc.

Also, and this is something very touchy and will need to be discussed with the directors, is what happens if a playerworld breaks the rules?

I am also establishing a more concrete requirement for the hosted tab inspections. So far my outline is revolving around two main things:

1) An area, however small (i.e. only 1 town is okay) that is 100% completed. This area should function as a preview/teaser for the world that is under construction, and should be representative of the final product in all it's larger glory. This way players get a taste for the style, and gameplay of a server.

2) It should draw the players interest. There should be enough activity to keep a players interest without the intervention of a tour guide or an events staff team. The server itself should have interesting enough aspects to hold interest for some time byitself, we recommend at least 1 hour.

Public input rocks.

I knew about these for a long time =|

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by Devil

OH yes, you can actually gather I talk on behalf of them.

I said thats what it seemed like, you used to do it before even though you were only "unofficially" ""helping""

I'm just saying myself and Houdini were talking about this last night and were trying to work on something to put forth to the directors to get them on the damn ball.

Thats all you needed was a small explination,
I think some other people are also qualified to help come up with ideas and stuff. I am just suggesting they try new things with new people, thats all.