PRE-FINALIZED DISCUSSION: Playerworld Rules

[HoudiniMan]

I had the idea, and many agreed, it would be best to separate job descriptions from the rules and make two threads. So, from this point on let's focus on rules and not so much duties or "managers must ________".

So the difference here is:
Provide training to new staff is a duty.
Do not ban people just because you hate them is a rule.

This is a pretty fuzzy distinction, I know, so if you want to discuss something and you aren't sure then go ahead. Just know that I'll be making a new thread for job duties where we can hammer all that out later.

[HoudiniMan]

More clarification:

Once you upload a file into the File Browser you may not remove it if you decide to quit or disagree with the other staff. Content you submit will not be removed except under special circumstances (e.g. Manager hires you, you upload whole town of levels, Manager fires you for no reason).

Also updated in first post.

[Skyld]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

I don't think staff weapons are that bad. I understand if they interfere with built-in commands (warpto, etc). But, for instance, Valikorlia has commands like /editplayer, /warpother, /summon, /setguild, etc. What's so bad about things like this, as long as everything is logged (as it is on Valikorlia)?

Well, the reason I use the word "reinvent" is because things like scripted "warpto" or "warpother" are reinventing what's already there. In which case, it would be better from not only a security aspect, but also an organisational aspect, to just use the RC rights. I don't have a problem with things like "summon" because they aren't really needlessly reinventing; they are not strictly already existing functionality.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

I agree, however, rclog.txt is always read-only.

Wrong. You can rename it to rclogINSERTWHATEVERYOUWANTHERE.txt. For example, I rename mine to something like this after each month:

rclog-july-2008.txt

[Spark910]

Once you upload a file into the File Browser you may not remove it if you decide to quit or disagree with the other staff. Content you submit will not be removed except under special circumstances (e.g. Manager hires you, you upload whole town of levels, Manager fires you for no reason).

Perhaps try and list more reasons than just the one. Also, this example could perhaps be reworded, to (I assume) emphasise a hire, upload and firring in a short amount of time. So that people don't read anything into it isn't supposed to provide!

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by Spark910

Perhaps try and list more reasons than just the one. Also, this example could perhaps be reworded, to (I assume) emphasise a hire, upload and firring in a short amount of time. So that people don't read anything into it isn't supposed to provide!

Once you upload a file into the File Browser you may not remove it if you decide to quit. Content you submit belongs to the server and is theirs to use except under special circumstances (e.g. Manager hires you, you upload whole town of levels, Manager fires you for no reason immediately afterward).

Better?

[Crow]

I disagree with the whole staff setup you wrote. I don't like the whole "Chief" idea, like "GAT Chief" or "LAT Chief", infact, I never liked it. I don't want to have any Chiefs, I just want to give people the rights they need and leave the hiring and watching stuff to Admins and me.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I agree...the rule should really be something like "No staff tools should exist for the sole purpose of abuse. (ie: /kill HoudiniMan)"

That's a good idea; the only "commands" we have on Vesporia are summon, "fix player" (fixes a rare bug caused by observer mode), and revive player (in case they changed their revive key, and they can't remember what they changed it to )

It's not very hard to make a very simple jail. There is a server option jaillevels= that can be used for individuals who "suck at scripting". Additionally, GPs can even follow a warning system where three warnings = ban instead of first offense = ban.

Yes, you're right. Vesporia doesn't really have any rules (that are possible to be broken), so we'll probably just make it clear that we expect players to follow the Graalonline Code of Conduct. I guess the only real rule we have is don't abuse glitches, since we have things in place to prevent other kinds of rule-breaking.

Seeing that a player has been banned for "Cheating" is often not enough when we have to go and look in to a ban complaint that we get on the support center. Its much easier for us to know what's going on and provide faster support for people when the comments have details on the incident. This way we don't have to look through logs or wait for a staff member to log on.

Yes, good point.

Good to see that you understand.

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

Wrong. You can rename it to rclogINSERTWHATEVERYOUWANTHERE.txt. For example, I rename mine to something like this after each month:

rclog-july-2008.txt

You still can't edit it.

Originally Posted by Crow

I disagree with the whole staff setup you wrote. I don't like the whole "Chief" idea, like "GAT Chief" or "LAT Chief", infact, I never liked it. I don't want to have any Chiefs, I just want to give people the rights they need and leave the hiring and watching stuff to Admins and me.

Even without chiefs/admins, you still need someone who can manage hirings; this is especially important for scripting (assuming the admins/manager can't script well). Unlike levels and graphics, scripts can't be judged based on just how they look. You also need someone who knows what they're doing to look over it.

I do agree that non-dev admins/chiefs (PR, FAQ, etc) are crazy.

[WanDaMan]

Let's hope a lot of the Managers enforce these rules! Nicely done.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

• You are not permitted to upload [...] copyrighted material into the File Browser. [...]
  
• You are not permitted to upload content that you did not create, without first getting permission from the creator of the content, and the Manager of the Playerworld it comes from.
  
• All files uploaded into the File Browser become the sole property of GraalOnline. [...]
  
• [...] Content you submit belongs to the server[...]

This is somewhat contradictory. If you cannot upload copyrighted content, how does the content come into the possession of GraalOnline from being public domain? Does it belong to the server or GraalOnline? If it belongs to the server, why do I need permission from the creator to upload it, instead of just the server?

From prior experience I know roughly what you are getting at, but the wording is unnecessarily confused.

E.g. You do not need someone to upload heads when the manager or graphics admin could do that.

I like to think that the manager or graphics admin have better uses of their playerworld-administration time than uploading heads. If I hire a competent developer, they should not have to waste their time with stuff like this.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

With some of them, it's obvious. But, which rules hold more weight than others? For instance, I really doubt that staff are going to stop massing through RC on Valikorlia (many high admins, and even co-managers, have tried and failed )... so, I would hope that the massing rule holds little weight in the event that a PWA actually comes on Valikorlia to check on how well rules are followed.

Originally Posted by Skyld

Well, the reason I use the word "reinvent" is because things like scripted "warpto" or "warpother" are reinventing what's already there. In which case, it would be better from not only a security aspect, but also an organisational aspect, to just use the RC rights. I don't have a problem with things like "summon" because they aren't really needlessly reinventing; they are not strictly already existing functionality.

From my experience, a scripted warpto usually doesn't work; for instance, I have to log on RC to use warpto, even though it's scripted in to the staff NPC. I guess I can understand the point (even though it's not hard to "reinvent" the commands ). I just wanted to make sure that staff NPCs weren't out-right banned. Which, as I can see, they aren't.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

From my experience, a scripted warpto usually doesn't work; for instance, I have to log on RC to use warpto, even though it's scripted in to the staff NPC. I guess I can understand the point (even though it's not hard to "reinvent" the commands ). I just wanted to make sure that staff NPCs weren't out-right banned. Which, as I can see, they aren't.

They most likely use some sort of check, or do so through sendtorc(which uses RC powers).

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Not that I'm aware of, Dusty (unless by "they", you mean Graal). It's been that way since before Inverness joined the team. RC probably just overrides warpto, since the staff NPC uses the same format (warpto x y level.nw).

[Frankie]

I would just hope that the massing problem is fixed so staff off tag do not override the ignore instead of just telling staff to stop massing. Servers like Era and Zodiac that revolve around an economy of items and money, people mass message to buy and sell things. Staff play the game so that means staff will most likely have items and money they want to trade and sending out a mass message is the best way to advertise your trades.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Not that I'm aware of, Dusty (unless by "they", you mean Graal). It's been that way since before Inverness joined the team. RC probably just overrides warpto, since the staff NPC uses the same format (warpto x y level.nw).

Oh... well then it's not scripted, it's Graal's warpto.

By the by, I never have to log on to RC to use warpto. I know this because I've logged on to servers on client at another computer, which can't get on RC because of IP issues, and still have used it.

[MysticX2X]

I wouldn't mind if Era Staff massed anything relevant to the server such as selling guns, etc....But half the time i see them posting irrelevant and useless messages that don't pertain to the server at all...Same with UN.

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

From my experience, a scripted warpto usually doesn't work;

They work just fine if the script is done correctly.

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

How about you not insult Era's system in a thread about new playerworld rules? There's an Era sub-forum for that.

If Era's system creates an issue with the playerworld rules then it is a valid topic to discuss.

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Your post is directly on top of mine. You're smart enough to make the connection.

Quote people that you're replying to, no excuses.

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Not that I'm aware of, Dusty (unless by "they", you mean Graal). It's been that way since before Inverness joined the team. RC probably just overrides warpto, since the staff NPC uses the same format (warpto x y level.nw).

If the staff NPC had a warpto it would be with a slash in front.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Inverness

If Era's system creates an issue with the playerworld rules then it is a valid topic to discuss.

Massing that you are buying/selling items is just fine. It doesn't break any rule whatsoever. Graal's functionality is what's causing the staff massing problem (when staff aren't on tag). I thought was pretty obvious. Loriel already has 1 post deleted in this thread for not being constructive; his other post isn't constructive either. The same can be said for my past four/five posts, too.

[Frankie]

Originally Posted by Loriel

How about you come up with a decent scripted buying-and-selling system instead of making people rely on masses?

No system is going to cut down on mass messages. Take Era's mall for example, instead of people massing out "Selling: these items. Buying: these items." It turns into "Selling these items at my mall stand, cheap, come check it out!"

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by Frankie

Nobody is making people rely on mass messages.

You mean Era has another way of advertising across the whole server?

Originally Posted by Frankie

No system can replace mass messages.

That seems a bit ignorant to say.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Inverness

That seems a bit ignorant to say.

What he's saying seems pretty right to me. Even if there's a shop GUI (for instance) that lists items that people are selling, people aren't going to stop advertising that they're selling stuff. Telling staff to outright not mass things like that is a workaround, and workarounds are for lazy people.

[Frankie]

You mean Era has another way of advertising across the whole server?

Well, that's not what I meant exactly. I don't see people complaining because there are no other ways to advertise their sales, so it's not like "oh they are making us use mass messages how awful is that T-T"

That seems a bit ignorant to say.

Not really, it's my own opinion. I think mass messages are an efficient way to advertise and I don't think any system could replace it. If a system was made in place, I think it would be pushed too far and unnecessary to have just because people are sick of seeing staff mass message.

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by Frankie

Well, that's not what I meant exactly. I don't see people complaining because there are no other ways to advertise their sales, so it's not like "oh they are making us use mass messages how awful is that T-T"


Not really, it's my own opinion. I think mass messages are an efficient way to advertise and I don't think any system could replace it. If a system was made in place, I think it would be pushed too far and unnecessary to have just because people are sick of seeing staff mass message.

The system I was thinking of would be like the market on EVE. You would place an order on the market with how much you want to sell an item for and the price for it and the item would disappear from your inventory into storage. Then anyone browsing the market for an item could buy your item and the money would be transferred to your account. Then the person that bought the item would have to travel to where you placed your item on the market and pick it up.

It might be a bit much for Era though. *Shrug*

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Frankie

No system is going to cut down on mass messages. Take Era's mall for example, instead of people massing out "Selling: these items. Buying: these items." It turns into "Selling these items at my mall stand, cheap, come check it out!"

"No system can do $foo. Take my system for example, it sucks." is not great logic >:o

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

They most likely use some sort of check, or do so through sendtorc(which uses RC powers).

At least serverside, sendtorc does not use RC powers. I don't believe it does clientside, either.

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

By the by, I never have to log on to RC to use warpto. I know this because I've logged on to servers on client at another computer, which can't get on RC because of IP issues, and still have used it.

I've never been able to use warpto when my IP ranges are incorrect. I don't have to be on RC, the ranges just need to be right.

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Telling staff to outright not mass things like that is a workaround, and workarounds are for lazy people.

It's not us who are being lazy, it's Stefan (unless he has a reason) who is being lazy and not making PMs override while not on staff tag.

Originally Posted by Inverness

The system I was thinking of would be like the market on EVE. You would place an order on the market with how much you want to sell an item for and the price for it and the item would disappear from your inventory into storage. Then anyone browsing the market for an item could buy your item and the money would be transferred to your account. Then the person that bought the item would have to travel to where you placed your item on the market and pick it up.

It might be a bit much for Era though. *Shrug*

That wouldn't work very well, since a lot of times items are traded around. On Era, I might trade x gun for y gun, and also add some money. A system like that would definitely not work on servers like GK, where virtually everything is traded.

[Kristi]

Points:
One uploader per server should be sufficient.
Scripted warpto's give more control. I do not see a problem with this.
PR in general does not need an RC, unless they need to ban.
Music you created SHOULD be able to be uploaded. If someone created a killer soundtrack for a server, they shouldn't have to host it somewhere else.

That's what I gots

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

Better?

Yup!

Originally Posted by Inverness

The system I was thinking of would be like the market on EVE. You would place an order on the market with how much you want to sell an item for and the price for it and the item would disappear from your inventory into storage. Then anyone browsing the market for an item could buy your item and the money would be transferred to your account. Then the person that bought the item would have to travel to where you placed your item on the market and pick it up.

It might be a bit much for Era though. *Shrug*

Yeah, this sort of a system is desireable. It would cut down on the amount of PMs, although there would still be quite a few such as "Just added ___ to my selling account" or "I need to sell ___ quick for money so I can buy ___, anyone want to bid?".

But it should be something built into Graal, rather than on one playerworld, so all playerworlds that wished to use it could use it.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Kristi

Points:
One uploader per server should be sufficient.

I'd say an addition one or two wouldn't be bad, if they were used to cover timezones.

[Googi]

What about banning or otherwise punishing people for things they've done on other servers?

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Googi

What about banning or otherwise punishing people for things they've done on other servers?

Right, can I ban Googi for going on and on about rock owner tags?

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Spark910

But it should be something built into Graal, rather than on one playerworld, so all playerworlds that wished to use it could use it.

yes because any given script can only be executed on one single playerworld ever

[Crow]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I'd say an addition one or two wouldn't be bad, if they were used to cover timezones.

Agreed. One isn't enough. Even when Atlantis still had some population and I was FAQ back then (we also did head/body uploads), there was a ton of stuff to upload.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I'd say an addition one or two wouldn't be bad, if they were used to cover timezones.

If uploading is that big of a deal, you could just set up something on your playerworld website where people upload stuff and the one designated uploader dude can check it every few days. Or just use email or whatever.

[Demisis_P2P]

Originally Posted by Loriel

"No system can do $foo. Take my system for example, it sucks." is not great logic >:o

ur right man. who do these friggin local stupid server staff think they are. damn teenage weekend game makers.

one of them should just stop being so lazy and make an artificially intelligent system that provides the same functionality as a mass message coupled with the existing /itemtrade command:
- let majority of the server know almost instantly, from whereever they are, that you're selling items
- let players make offers on items that may include:

~ money only
~ items only
~ any combination of money or items

- decide which deal is the best for the player
- accept the deal and transfer the items almost instantly between the players whereever they are on the server

sounds a lot easier than just making masses not override when u dont want them to anyway right?

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

ur right man. who do these friggin local stupid server staff think they are. damn teenage weekend game makers.

one of them should just stop being so lazy and make an artificially intelligent system that provides the same functionality as a mass message coupled with the existing /itemtrade command:
- let majority of the server know almost instantly, from whereever they are, that you're selling items
- let players make offers on items that may include:

~ money only
~ items only
~ any combination of money or items

- decide which deal is the best for the player
- accept the deal and transfer the items almost instantly between the players whereever they are on the server

sounds a lot easier than just making masses not override when u dont want them to anyway right?

Yea, if you went off the system I mentioned earlier, it wouldn't be difficult to add a feature that would notify you as soon as something you want appears on the market.

I don't think you're doing good at being sarcastic seeing how that's all possible with a bit of effort. Plus it would be better than masses anyways.

[xAzerothx]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

NO NPC should interfere with, or stop, the automatic disconnection for not moving.

I like how they have this rule but Graal Kingdoms, a gold server, does not follow it.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by xAzerothx

I like how they have this rule but Graal Kingdoms, a gold server, does not follow it.

It's been changed since Tig got the position of manager

EDIT: Apparently he didn't change it, but I've been disconnected for not moving on GK recently.

[xAzerothx]

How long do you have to stand still until you get disconnected? I was AFKing in a house and I didn't disconnect.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by xAzerothx

I like how they have this rule but Graal Kingdoms, a gold server, does not follow it.

These are playerworld rules, last time I checked GK was not a playerworld.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by xAzerothx

How long do you have to stand still until you get disconnected? I was AFKing in a house and I didn't disconnect.

15 minutes I believe ... Funny, I'm not getting disconnected anymore, either. Perhaps I imagined it o_o