this needs to be discussed

[Hiro]

i'm going to try and write this thread as devoid of any comments considered "bashing CJ" because those threads always get deleted, and thus we get nowhere on this problem. at the same time i'm going to try and write in a manner that addresses the problems faced by a lack of support and the new road graal is being forced to take. you know that i'm talking about the lack of new content, the lack of user-supported updates, and the population decline

first and foremost, as seen in the "make V5 more like V2" thread, it's more than apparent that the updates over the past few years have had little to no user support behind them. they were sprung upon us instead of introduced and talked about. for a game that survives almost chiefly upon community, and the developers inside the community, it seems impractical that us users have no say into the updates before they happen, and it's lead to huge disappointments

secondly is the problem of what exactly graal is. is it a video game? a development platform? a glorified instant messenger? a internet card gaming lounge that also happens to be a development platform that also is zelda: a link to the past online? the definition of what graal is throws off a lot of new players, because there really isn't a specific answer to it. the answer given to us is that it's a development platform for developers to create servers for users to play, but that doesn't really help out new player; it doesn't give them any direction into the game. graal is very open-ended on letting players choose how they wish to play, but it is also very poorly advertised as such, and it's current portrayal doesn't serve it justice. there is no starting ground for new players - you have to already know what to do to really get into this game: the learning curve is huge, especially in development. once players realize this, 80 percent of them won't try it again. you can add another 10 percent once player's see that it's a development platform, because they are not developers. people originally played graal because it was a online video game, not because it is a development platform

thirdly is the population decline. graal is slowly dying off and it's hard to say that it isn't. the game (or platform?) hasn't seen a rise in players in a long while, and if it weren't for graal's rich history spanning over 10 years, i doubt it would still be in business. i mean to say that in the most sincere and worried way i can. what can we point out to new players that would get them interested in playing graal? i can think of only a few:

1) it's zelda: a link to the past, except online
2) it's highly customizable
3) it has a solid community

this isn't enough to draw in new players, especially the younger players that graal is being directed at. most of them don't play a link to the past, most don't care about customization (read development), but more towards game play. the solid community is the only thing appealing, and even that is very elitist and unfriendly towards newer players depending on which server you go to. it forces people onto servers where you can do mostly everything alone (which can account for the decline in classic player worlds and the increase in RPG/modern ones, zone being the embodiment of this fact)

and forth is the problem of leadership among developers. it's obvious as to who the leader should be, but it doesn't seem to be working out as well as it should on both sides of the spectrum. developers are spread thin across a variety of different projects, instead of combined into one or two solid teams to produce solid content. since graal lets you make whatever you want, why should you follow the ideas of someone else? you can say, "screw this project, i'm going to make my own!" and then nothing gets done. the lack of a solid leading project for developers and users to both get behind and support (in whatever way they can) leads to the problem of cloned servers, stealing other people's work, and zero fun, new, and refreshing content. let this be a problem for a number of years, as it has been, and now we begin to see a lack of motivation from developers to create new things. now the problem becomes zero content, and zero original creations or innovations

i'm not sure how to solve these problems, but they need to be addressed. if this thread is deleted, for whatever reason it get's deleted, then i feel that graal has lost it's way and is slowly destroying itself from within. if we can't talk about it, we can't do anything about it

[fowlplay4]

tl;dr but making a thread about it has been done before, now it's just beating a dead horse.. We just have to hope that the people upstairs decide to take action, well good/proper action anyway.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

tl;dr but making a thread about it has been done before, now it's just beating a dead horse..

I agree entirely - especially since I feel the approach the majority of people are taking. I find most of these threads are very poorly considered - people do not do any research, or invest any consideration into their suggestions... if you're just going to knee-jerk some thread out what's the point? I'm still working on some personal research in regards to Graal Online's betterment, more of a hobby now than a serious project.

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

We just have to hope that the people upstairs decide to take action, well good/proper action anyway.

I don't think that's the correct approach either, although it could be a combination if player parties were interested. But I'm afraid it's still "beating a dead horse"...

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I agree entirely - especially since I feel the approach the majority of people are taking. I find most of these threads are very poorly considered - people do not do any research, or invest any consideration into their suggestions... if you're just going to knee-jerk some thread out what's the point? I'm still working on some personal research in regards to Graal Online's betterment, more of a hobby now than a serious project.

I don't think that's the correct approach either, although it could be a combination if player parties were interested. But I'm afraid it's still "beating a dead horse"...

so, are you saying i'm wrong about graal's problems? it'd be nice if you share with us some of that research you are doing so we can all get a better idea on how graal is doing

[Switch]

Originally Posted by Hiro

[...]
it's just time we actually did something about it instead of waiting for said people upstairs to come and save us. sure it should be their job, but they aren't doing it, so as draenin said, it's up to us

Lead a Graal revolt. All servers go into Staff Only. Develop nothing. Lead all players to a new game. Only then will those people upstairs realize they need to do something as well, but all will fail with everyone gone.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Switch

Lead a Graal revolt. All servers go into Staff Only. Develop nothing. Lead all players to a new game. Only then will those people upstairs realize they need to do something as well, but all will fail with everyone gone.

I don't think server owners can so easily make their servers staff only? Although, even if they could, they would just revert them. Ultimately if a group of users made a successful effort to interfere or "strong arm" Eurocenter into making a decision, I anticipate they would simply cut their losses and shut Graal Online down.

[Draenin]

Because of projects Stefan and others have taken up, I now think it's part of the community's obligation to create their own fun and take responsibility for making the community grow again.

[Pelikano]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Because of projects Stefan and others have taken up, I now think it's part of the community's obligation to create their own fun and take responsibility for making the community grow again.

How?

Community grow = ADs,

ADs = Money you earn with your project (here Graal)

Money you earn = in Unixmad's hands

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Because of projects Stefan and others have taken up, I now think it's part of the community's obligation to create their own fun and take responsibility for making the community grow again.

This is total nonsense. We have neither the possibilities to develop the engines now can we influence the way how CJ does marketing for graal

If they think this way, release the sourcecode of a version without torque (v3 or v4 I assume) and let the people do their thing.
It's just too expensive for a game without development support, with 40€ or a year of gold or 80€ for a year of server renting.

We already had those prices when they still paid attention to the game, so I see no possible reason at the current situation to still pay the same prices with hardly any development support at all.

[papajchris]

Originally Posted by Darklux

This is total nonsense. We have neither the possibilities to develop the engines now can we influence the way how CJ does marketing for graal

If they think this way, release the sourcecode of a version without torque (v3 or v4 I assume) and let the people do their thing.
It's just too expensive for a game without development support, with 40€ or a year of gold or 80€ for a year of server renting.

We already had those prices when they still paid attention to the game, so I see no possible reason at the current situation to still pay the same prices with hardly any development support at all.

It didn't cost that much before. a player could get lifetime classic and gold for a year for $20. Now it's around $51. They raise the price and then don't give any updates.

[Galdor]

I really doubt any playerworld project is going to be so professional and well made that new people will start playing graal, only perhaps if the few good devs that we have left worked together on something.

And CJ needs to try harder with their gold servers, Zone and GK are very boring games that I think would need a lot of gameplay changes to really work.

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by Galdor

I really doubt any playerworld project is going to be so professional and well made that new people will start playing graal, only perhaps if the few good devs that we have left worked together on something.

And CJ needs to try harder with their gold servers, Zone and GK are very boring games that I think would need a lot of gameplay changes to really work.

Exactly. Playerworlds are playerworlds. We have some talented people here, but they will always be amateur made.
There needs to be a price drop or significant more activity by CJ - or this game is just and easy doomed.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Galdor

I really doubt any playerworld project is going to be so professional and well made that new people will start playing graal, only perhaps if the few good devs that we have left worked together on something.

well, as a developer, you could take the step forward and try to assemble those few individuals into creating a player world. sure it's not going to be as professional as a server created by CJ, but it could still be good enough that we could draw in more players with it, especially if you get the right people for the job

Originally Posted by Darklux

This is total nonsense. We have neither the possibilities to develop the engines now can we influence the way how CJ does marketing for graal

If they think this way, release the sourcecode of a version without torque (v3 or v4 I assume) and let the people do their thing.
It's just too expensive for a game without development support, with 40€ or a year of gold or 80€ for a year of server renting.

We already had those prices when they still paid attention to the game, so I see no possible reason at the current situation to still pay the same prices with hardly any development support at all.

i agree, but i don't think the sourcecode being released likely to happen. this is one of the reasons for the anti-graal people, and is also a reason for the lack of motivation on the communities part. we don't want to work hard for nothing, while the owners make profit. it's very unfair. however, they already accepted the 3rd party graal servers (i don't remember the name of the project, but the one ran by agret, graal reborn or something) but no one plays there because it isn't advertised, nothing new is presented, and the actual graal servers are (OH MY GOD WHAT) better. it seems paradoxical, but most people don't seem willing to play a 3rd party graal server

besides, if they stopped making graal P2P, then how would they pay to keep the servers up? they certainly don't make enough money off gold and iphone purchases to do so (this is a big assumption since the other option would probably be considered as bashing)

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

tl;dr but making a thread about it has been done before, now it's just beating a dead horse.. We just have to hope that the people upstairs decide to take action, well good/proper action anyway.

this isn't beating a dead horse - it's getting through the communities thick egos and pessimistic view on the game as of late. we know we are on our own, we have been for awhile. it's just time we actually did something about it instead of waiting for said people upstairs to come and save us. sure it should be their job, but they aren't doing it, so as draenin said, it's up to us

[Robin]

I sent a business proposal to Stefan about a week ago, never got a response, not even a "I have received your message, and no."

I can only conclude that they are not interested in making money in this area of their business any more, and thus I have had to build my own game engine and hire my own graphics artists.

Although in this way we are now keeping all the advertising revenue, rather than sharing it with anyone else.

[Crono]

They don't care for your (our) opinions no matter how right we are, thought you'd learn that by now Hiro.