The Forums

[xXziroXx]

NOTE: I am in no way trying to bash or criticize the moderation, so please, read this with an open mind.


The forums are dead. Sure, we've known this for a few years now, but I'm not only talking about amount of posters (compared to the past). We barely have any active moderators in the vast majority of forums, and Darlene is the only active super moderator.

Looking at the "Global Staff Contacts" thread, there are a few errors. Skyld is listed as only member of the "GS-Team", which is a group that to my knowledge hasn't existed for years. I'm not sure what he actually should be listed as, he's... SUPER Skyld. Stephen is listed as the Zone Administrator, something he hasn't been for 1-1.5 years, maybe more. Tig is apparently a super moderator, but I don't think he's actually moderating anything aside from the GK forums.

Now, let's take a further look around and see what we can find...

• There's a Global Scripting Team section. As I mentioned, the GST hasn't existed for quite a while. Last post that wasn't Snk trolling was from 2008.
• The Wiki Administration Team should be named to something more fitting, such as Global News Administration Team
• Half a decade from being on the Classic list later, Bomy Island still has a forum. Sentimental value? Certainly doesn't serve a purpose since it's not even being developed.

The development forums especially could use some moderators. The levels forum have Crono, he's been doing a decent job moderating so that's great. I'd recommend Dusty and Aeko as moderators for the graphics forum since it has none. Skyld and Tig are moderators of the scripting forum, but I'm not sure if either one of them have been very present the last months. In either case I'd recommend Chris as a moderator for that. We have one active person that specializes in ganis, and that's Fulg0reSama. I think he'd do an okay job at moderating.

I'd also like to mention the ~20 stickied threads in various sections that are no longer valid. More specialized moderators could definitely solve that though. Maybe even one or two more super moderators? You gotta start trusting more people Darlene!

[dude2020]

Yeah, haven't you noticed that just about every gave up or doesn't care?


-Neg rep leaver; You mad?

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by dude2020

Yeah, haven't you noticed that just about every gave up or doesn't care?

Some of us do care, though.

[dude2020]

good luck with that

[TSAdmin]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

Maybe even one or two more super moderators? You gotta start trusting more people Darlene!

It's not up to her anymore. If it were, it's likely I'd be a Super Moderator, myself. Instead I'm waiting on a response from Stefan as to whether or not he'd like another Super Moderator.

As for everything else, I guess it's a matter of perspective. Most of the parts that are still active still hold a fair bit of weight binding the forums to the game/server they correspond to whereas there is indeed a lot of dead or no-longer-valid forums and threads stickied that would better be seen the end of in acceptance that they're obviously not coming back and if they do, it'd actually be better to start fresh with fresh information.

[MattKan]

It really wouldn't be very difficult for sections to be fixed and moderators to be added, provided someone could have the right to fix them.

[Darlene159]

The problem with removing moderators is that I dont know when people leave their positions. People leave and come into positions often, and I'm not always told.

As far as needing more moderators, I really don't see a reason for it, with the exception of another supermoderator simply because Tig is head of the pwa and is busy, and maybe one for the scripting section.
Most of the forums have moderators.

I do agree there are areas of the forum that need tweaking and cleaned up.

[Tigairius]

The forums are dead because there are new online social gathering places for Graal players ran by players with more relaxed rules. As far as my moderating, I think I hand out more infractions than Darlene! (but she's less likely to give infractions, she moderates more than I do).

The biggest thing is that Graal is subdivided by server. Server managers want full control over their forums just as they have full control over their servers. These forums do not offer that, and we do not force servers to use the official Graal forums. There are ways to fix this, but it's way out of my or Darlene's hands.

[MattKan]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

The problem with removing moderators is that I dont know when people leave their positions. People leave and come into positions often, and I'm not always told.

As far as needing more moderators, I really don't see a reason for it, with the exception of another supermoderator simply because Tig is head of the pwa and is busy, and maybe one for the scripting section.
Most of the forums have moderators.

I do agree there are areas of the forum that need tweaking and cleaned up.

Do you have rights to edit the theme and stuff? I think maybe we could do a community project to improve the general theme of the place.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

The levels forum have Crono, he's been doing a decent job moderating so that's great.

Aw, thanks.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I think I hand out more infractions than Darlene! (but she's less likely to give infractions, she moderates more than I do).

It's true guys, it's true.

[Skyld]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

Skyld is listed as only member of the "GS-Team", which is a group that to my knowledge hasn't existed for years. I'm not sure what he actually should be listed as, he's... SUPER Skyld.

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

Skyld and Tig are moderators of the scripting forum, but I'm not sure if either one of them have been very present the last months.

I am still watching the forums daily, and often moderate threads in the scripting forum. There hasn't been much activity in the scripting subforums in general though, because not many people seem to be developing anymore.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by MattKan

Do you have rights to edit the theme and stuff? I think maybe we could do a community project to improve the general theme of the place.

No

[DustyPorViva]

Oh ya, graphic forums definitely don't need any type of moderation.

[MattKan]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

No

Oh :/ That stinks.

[Devil_Lord2]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

I'd also like to mention the ~20 stickied threads in various sections that are no longer valid. More specialized moderators could definitely solve that though. Maybe even one or two more super moderators? You gotta start trusting more people Darlene!

I don't remember where, but I know many tutorials listed have either broken links or images.

[MattKan]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

The forums are dead because there are new online social gathering places for Graal players ran by players with more relaxed rules.

I sort of disagree. I do use another forums very frequently, but I come here just as much, and I think a lot of other people still do, too .

[Unkownsoldier]

There seems to have been a very stiff decline in threads created in all of the development forums. Unless you count the numerous pointless scripting ones, other than that things have been stagnant. The forums are going more in a general direction instead of being focused on the game itself; seeing as more and more posts are in the off-topic section than anything. I think it is time to implement an iphone section into the forums (I know it's a very unpopular idea). For reasons being you want to keep the players separate, but I think the forums could be a great way of getting iphone players interested in the other servers by seeing what the content is etc.

[DustyPorViva]

Development forums are slow, but stagnant moderation isn't helping. Believe it or not, good moderators that are active within the section are quite motivating for users.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

As far as needing more moderators, I really don't see a reason for it, with the exception of another supermoderator simply because Tig is head of the pwa and is busy, and maybe one for the scripting section.
Most of the forums have moderators.

The graphics forum could really use one. It's been one of the most active forums for years, and there's been several occasions where it could have used moderation.

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Believe it or not, good moderators that are active within the section are quite motivating for users.

Yeah, this is actually a pretty important point.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

The forums are dead because there are new online social gathering places for Graal players ran by players with more relaxed rules. As far as my moderating, I think I hand out more infractions than Darlene! (but she's less likely to give infractions, she moderates more than I do).

The biggest thing is that Graal is subdivided by server. Server managers want full control over their forums just as they have full control over their servers. These forums do not offer that, and we do not force servers to use the official Graal forums. There are ways to fix this, but it's way out of my or Darlene's hands.

You're both right and wrong. Even though there are many unofficial forums for Graal, a lot of people still see this as the main one, as it rightfully should be. Whenever someone needs help with graphics or scripts, I personally refer them here. Giving active Classic/Hosted playerwords a forum here should be a given, yet I was even denied one when Maloria went Classic. Personally I'd use these forums over maloria.com any day, simply because these are the official forums for Graal.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

The biggest thing is that Graal is subdivided by server. Server managers want full control over their forums just as they have full control over their servers. These forums do not offer that, and we do not force servers to use the official Graal forums. There are ways to fix this, but it's way out of my or Darlene's hands.

This is a very real problem. At least the top two most popular servers have active forums outside of the official ones, I'd bet the other playerworlds do as well. If these forums were easier to get started with (why do people have to register? why can't they just hit start > forums and be logged in automatically like they can with the Graal site?) and offered more for the server staff I think they'd be used more. For a long time Era used the official forums, but we finally gave up with them recently because it's so hard for the players to get access.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

This is a very real problem. At least the top two most popular servers have active forums outside of the official ones, I'd bet the other playerworlds do as well. If these forums were easier to get started with (why do people have to register? why can't they just hit start > forums and be logged in automatically like they can with the Graal site?) and offered more for the server staff I think they'd be used more. For a long time Era used the official forums, but we finally gave up with them recently because it's so hard for the players to get access.

It's really not hard to register...

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

It's really not hard to register...

There is a layer of confusion when it's actually your Graal account being used, but you still have to register an account/password/email. This is not normal for registering on forums. Though I imagine it may be out of Stefan/Unixmad's hands to link the Graal account database to vBulletin.

[MattKan]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

There is a layer of confusion when it's actually your Graal account being used, but you still have to register an account/password/email. This is not normal for registering on forums. Though I imagine it may be out of Stefan/Unixmad's hands to link the Graal account database to vBulletin.

It's obviously sort of linked already since you have to have gold to even sign up.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

It's really not hard to register...

It's a lot more difficult than it should be. You have to register using your Graal account/community name and Graal password, which is silly by itself. Then you have to wait an arbitrary amount of time for somebody to approve it (why?) before your account is activated. New players won't know this and won't do it. History has shown that it's confusing to a lot of people

Upon registering a Graal account, a forum account should be created as well. This is easily possible to do with minimal scripting work. Account approval can be disabled; it's not needed on a forum this small and just deters people. The "Forums" link in the Start menu should direct you to a page that verifies the request and gives you a session cookie, just like the "Upgrade" link does, and lets you start using the forums immediately. There's no reason for it to be more complicated than that.

[Devil_Lord2]

Lol, I had to be on the forums to log in, if I tried to log in from the Graal Website it would always say I was banned. Apparently my email was different or something..

I come on here less than the unofficial because most of the iPhone players are nicer. I can say this honestly because a lot of the PC players who have migrated there are still the ones ill mannered.

However, I do use this one due to it having a slightly player-count using it, and due to the fact it is more for development. Even though I must admit, I try to stay away from the development forums for the above mentioned reason.
I think the last few days are a good example why.

Furthermore, the unofficial forums have more leeway to teach, and there is even a thread section that doesn't relate to Graal that is easily accessible.

The logo even is more enticing..
I'm not even sure what the icon above the two A's is supposed to be... A bionicle?

Nevertheless, I still get on here.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

It's a lot more difficult than it should be. You have to register using your Graal account/community name and Graal password, which is silly by itself. Then you have to wait an arbitrary amount of time for somebody to approve it (why?) before your account is activated. New players won't know this and won't do it. History has shown that it's confusing to a lot of people

Upon registering a Graal account, a forum account should be created as well. This is easily possible to do with minimal scripting work. Account approval can be disabled; it's not needed on a forum this small and just deters people. The "Forums" link in the Start menu should direct you to a page that verifies the request and gives you a session cookie, just like the "Upgrade" link does, and lets you start using the forums immediately. There's no reason for it to be more complicated than that.

I check for new registrations daily, so there is never any wait, except for maybe a few hours. I dont understand the difficulty. Seems like it would be easier since you use the same account and password as the game itself to register. I am sure there are other ways of doing it, but still, I dont see how it is so difficult

[MattKan]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I check for new registrations daily, so there is never any wait, except for maybe a few hours. I dont understand the difficulty. Seems like it would be easier since you use the same account and password as the game itself to register. I am sure there are other ways of doing it, but still, I dont see how it is so difficult

Well, it took me a few months to be able to sign up because of some stupid glitch. (I can't remember what it was.) So I can sort of understand where they are coming from. And it is, after all, another stupid thing they have to sign up for, which maybe daunts them a little bit. I agree that it isn't much of a hassle, but little things can drive people away :/

[Galdor]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I check for new registrations daily, so there is never any wait, except for maybe a few hours. I dont understand the difficulty. Seems like it would be easier since you use the same account and password as the game itself to register. I am sure there are other ways of doing it, but still, I dont see how it is so difficult

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I check for new registrations daily, so there is never any wait, except for maybe a few hours. I dont understand the difficulty. Seems like it would be easier since you use the same account and password as the game itself to register. I am sure there are other ways of doing it, but still, I dont see how it is so difficult

If it's difficult enough that people are confused by it, then it's too difficult. There's no reason that accounts can't be created on the forums at the same time they're created for the game. It can be streamlined and it should be.

[Imperialistic]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Though I imagine it may be out of Stefan/Unixmad's hands to link the Graal account database to vBulletin.

.... isn't this how all of our personal info got leaked in the first place?

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Imperialistic

.... isn't this how all of our personal info got leaked in the first place?

As far as I understand, the leaked information was limited to the hacked support center a few years ago. The leaked info did not cover every player in the Graal Online DB, just those who had used the support center (basically every active player - my account information was leaked).

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Imperialistic

.... isn't this how all of our personal info got leaked in the first place?

No. They got leaked because the crappy third-party support center had major security issues.

[Matt]

I personally would love to see the forums cleaned up so it is update with information, that's kind of a big deal, especially since the community is evolving. i also agree with another super moderator, or 2, and I also think moderators should have the role of keeping discussion up, meaning new threads so players have more to discuss. Right now I can see only a few 'hot topics'.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I check for new registrations daily, so there is never any wait, except for maybe a few hours. I dont understand the difficulty. Seems like it would be easier since you use the same account and password as the game itself to register. I am sure there are other ways of doing it, but still, I dont see how it is so difficult

The registration process can be considered difficult nowadays. People aren't used to having to go through all that trouble just to register a forum account when practically every other game creates a forum account automatically for you along with your game account. As Chris said, it would take minimal effort to set that up for Stefan/Unixmad if they'd want too.

[Crono]

Chris is actually right Darlene. Although we don't view registration as being that complicated, I too was slightly confused when I started and have seen many players ingame also tell me they have no idea "how to signup" to these forums.

Graal has always been slightly backwards in how it runs things but I think the forums are one of the most off-putting + particularly confusing things for newcommers and those who have never used a forum before (a surprisingly large amount of people!). Graalians doesn't require you to sign up with any kind of ingame information and there's still no problem with identity theft or anything of the sort. Perhaps if Graal's main website was simplified and shared its login with the forums (I've seen some games do this...unless I'm hallucinating) it would be a much easier process.

I don't know the mechanics (or anything really) behind vBulletin so perhaps someone with more knowledge could explain a few things.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Crono

I don't know the mechanics (or anything really) behind vBulletin so perhaps someone with more knowledge could explain a few things.

I don't have much experience with vBulletin, but have done similar things with other forum software in the past (e.g. when you log on Era for the first time, a forum account is created for you; PM the NPC-server "forums" for a link to the forums that signs you in automatically, no password needed). This should be fairly simple with vBulletin as well.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

I don't have much experience with vBulletin, but have done similar things with other forum software in the past (e.g. when you log on Era for the first time, a forum account is created for you; PM the NPC-server "forums" for a link to the forums that signs you in automatically, no password needed). This should be fairly simple with vBulletin as well.

What I was thinking was the entire login process for the forums and the mainsite are combined, so if you're signed into the graal site you're signed into the forums and maybe the otherway around. This way players won't have to register and can comfortably use their normal login/passes for Graal on the forums.

Let players set their own passwords (perhaps force complex passwords, etc) and all is well imo.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Crono

What I was thinking was the entire login process for the forums and the mainsite are combined, so if you're signed into the graal site you're signed into the forums and maybe the otherway around. This way players won't have to register and can comfortably use their normal login/passes for Graal on the forums.

Let players set their own passwords (perhaps force complex passwords, etc) and all is well imo.

Would be nice to see this as well, although I think it's pretty clear at this point that they don't care how terrible their website is.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Would be nice to see this as well, although I think it's pretty clear at this point that they don't care how terrible their website is.

...

[Matt]

There's an addon that makes that all possible, but I doubt Stefan is for addons.