Open Discussion: Attack Types and the Future of PVP
 

Let me start off by saying these ideas have not been approved and this is an open discussion. I am outlining what my plans are should they be approved. Just as I have posted my suggestions you may post yours or comment on mine or others.

As many of you know recently I've been tasked with revamping attack types and PVP in general. If you've logged on Kingdoms since July 4th and attempted PVPing you've noticed that poison has been changed drastically and Fear is now working. I'll cover the exact details below of my current plans and what has been done so far and would like your input on them. A big issue in the past with Kingdoms aside from the lack of constant updates has been not getting enough input from the players. While nothing in the thread is set in stone until it has been approved by Nico and moved to the main server I do not think my opinion nor any single member of the current staff team should dictate the direction PVP should go as everyones opinion is different. I'm hoping to roll out these updates frequently (weekly or biweekly should I have the time to work on it.)

Keep in mind that I want to hear what you guys want to see for PVP not just responses to what I've posted. I plan on keeping the PVE element the same for now so lets leave that out of this discussion.

General
* Make food deplete slower and reduce players feeling like they need to stay bile. - Hopefully this will help diversify what gods are being used among the playerbase.
* Remove knockback when players attack other players. Knock back will stay when a monster hits a player.
* Add shield block like the one present in the arena - Make it have a 20% to block damage 50% chance to reduce damage 20% chance to not reduce any damage.
* Revamp resistances
* Change casting. Make it so you are not locked into a cast and are still able to move
* Add a freeze time when equipping a wand to prevent running and healing. - Will only be for the equipping phase.
* Add a Countdown timer after giving or taking damage before being able to enter or exit a building to prevent running from PVP.

Attack Types
* Poison - No stat reduction but applies a burst DoT
* Fire - Long DoT that does a large amount of damage but spread out of a long period of time so it will not be as noticeable. - Getting in water will remove the debuff
* Fear - Reverses Keys
* Ghosthit - Chance of a second hit
* Slow - Captain Obvious
* Cold - Reduce attack speed
* Blind - Reduce the dreaded minute blind to about 10-15 seconds of pure darkness
* Acid - Lowers AC for a short amount of time
* Drain - Leeches life



I'm at work currently so I'm keeping this short but I'm sure I'm missing some of the other things I would like to do. Please stay on topic by keeping this solely about PVP

Sweeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!! Stuff is actually happening!!

Removing the knockback could make daggers/fists incredibly vicious again-- so that's interesting for sure.

I REALLY like the shield block idea. Surely more people would start using their shields if something like this were in place. PvPing would be less "swing your sword randomly" and more tactical and precise like in the Spar Arena. But giving it a % chance makes it so it's not overly-used to the point where someone is just countering every swing. Or maybe that could even be a new stat on some items? (+5% block increase) etc.

I don't agree with the proposed "10-15 seconds of pure darkness" for blind. (Assuming you mean the screen is entirely black for 10-15 seconds). So much can happen in that amount of time, at least in a spar event with 20+ people. Mind you, on the overworld it wouldn't be so bad since there's so much space to randomly scramble about until your vision is returned. But for any major spar event-- this would give the dianceht users an incredibly one-sided advantage.

I always thought it'd be neat if for spar events everyone's Speed, HP, AC/WC and weapon/shield was some sort of default. So literally everyone has a balanced chance (even new players) in the spar events. There would be 0 reason for people to complain anymore about items-- it would be based purely on skill like any old classic server. And then obviously, people would have their gear and stuff for PKing on the overworld.

I'm just going to focus on this for now - if you focus on too much at once it can become overwhelming.

These sounds great. I like fire (water debucc, cool) and ghost hit is a great idea too. Regarding blind, perhaps 5-10 seconds of pure darkness would be more appropriate - testing will tell for sure, but even 5 seconds may be too much. I would like to see Acid do damage like fire, but without the water debuff.

Regarding drain, you mean the attacker regains HP from the damage drain deals? I like this idea a lot.

There's an attribute on bile's blessing called "life stealing", which I believe already does this-- but the effect is hardly noticeable.

Glad to hear you want to make this a public discussion. There are bound to be some things most players may not agree on, but that's alright. At least we'll see what people are interested in most.

* Well, hopefully it doesn't get a lot of people to switch off of Bile too. I know Bile already has a ton of benefits, but still.
* I kind of worry about this one. I know knockback is a kind of annoying effect in combat, but a lack of it allows players to 'pin' others down in corners or against objects more easily. I kind of like what Conq said about only certain weapons having it removed. Mostly short-range weapons, since that means you have to get in closer to other players to actually hit them. Bows, especially, should still have some kind of knockback effect since it means needing to re-aim after a few shots.
* Any use for shields would definitely be great. People have wanted them to reflect stuff for a few years now, but from a mechanics standpoint, I don't think that's possible without some very complicated coding. So blocking is the next best thing. Are there any plans for what to do about their effect against spells and arrows, though? Will they be handled any differently? (It would be nice to have them totally block arrows, and reduce spell damage.)
* In what way? Making them more or less important?
* Well, just make sure people aren't allowed to move and cast. Moving should probably interrupt the cast, not allow for both at once.
* A lot of the time, running and healing is done with scrolls rather than wands. Adding a freeze time to wands only punishes casters, and doesn't really address the problem directly. Why not add a cooldown time for healing spells? (That is, you can only heal so many times each minute.)
* How long of a countdown time are we talking about here? Would this impede the ability to simply leave in the middle of an event spar? (For example, in Bomboria or Hotaru's arena? I know they have lock-out features already that prevent players from re-entering during events.)

* The terms 'burst' and 'dot' kind of mean two different things, but nice to see this change. :]
* I kind of worry that you pair the terms 'large amount of damage' and 'long periods of time,' but I really like the idea of being able to remove burns by soaking in water.
* Again, I think doing something different with fear would be nice. It just too closely resembles confusion in my eyes. (Reversed keys vs. attacking in the wrong direction.) Both deal with messing with player's directional facings, and I'm wondering if this could be made to either make victims actually flee in different directions or cower in place for a short duration. Alternatively, it could also slightly reduce Attack or WC for a limited amount of time. (As kind of the opposite of what acid does.)
* Kinda weird, but at least ghosthit would finally be good for something.
* Well, yeah.
* Probably a lot better than freezing players altogether.
* Yeah, a solid minute of blinding is rough. Most effects should not last as long as a minute, or even 30 seconds in most cases. GK has had a history of having status effects that are often overwhelming, and it would be good to work on those first. (Poison being the most prominent example, and thankfully it has finally been addressed.)
* I definitely approve. Certainly makes a lot more sense than poison doing the same.
* Hopefully this will be based on a low percentage or a fixed number, because the HP return rate, I imagine, will probably depend on how much damage you're doing in the first place. I would recommend no greater than 10 percent, if even that much, because when stronger players are fighting weaker ones they may do more damage and thus return more HP to themselves, giving them an incentive to pick on weaker players for more health.


Also, if possible, could you list the other attack types and what they do currently in your first post? I'm curious as to whether depletion (as an attack) and paralyze are currently doing anything different than what they have in the past.

hi someone pm'd me about this and I don't play GK but fear giving the inflicted player a "debuff radius" where they suffer lowered stats while other players are in that circle would make more sense in relation to being inflicted with fear (encouraging the player to escape (fight or flight??)) and make it not seem like what you'd imagine confusion as anyway nice to know stuff is happening, everything else looks neat esp ghosthit mattering, A+ I guess <3<3

I really like that this is happening too. Thank you Cubical. Just to throw some thing out there. I would love to see it so that the god people pray to has a bigger effect on the game. In reality the only big ones are Bile, Ogma and Gov. The rest are not worth while since they have no benefits. If their effects changed the way we PVP then there might be cool to pray to Balor or DianCecht.

Also, I like conq idea of having a spar that had standard stats to everyone has a chance. That would be pretty sweet.

Also, perhaps our class could have some bearing on anything at all lol

I can leave it enabled for certain weapons should they become an issue.
Yes, I was also worried about someone retreating into a corner and just laming. There will definitely be a block chance and I'm not sure what I'm going to base it on. I think nico has already approved me doing this.

This is exactly why I made this post. I cannot make each attack type balanced by just guessing. I would have made it 15 seconds and then the tears would have started flowing. I'll most likely use the idea Stephen posted below for blind. Right now I feel as if it's not overpowered but extremely annoying in its current state and it does need to be changed.

That is actually kind of how it's currently calculated but to give people who have put effort into leveling an advantage. Damage is based of the victims HP and a percent of your current damage. That's why everyone stands a fighting chance in spars.

I know, I also get burnt out easily.

My plan is making it a hit like when Ksavir warps next to you and you see two of him for a split second.

A lot of this will be trial and error and nothing can be completely balanced until all the attack types are complete. Well the only problem with acid being a damage over time attacktype is there is already fire+poison and stacking acid on top of that could really wreck someone. Maybe I could make it so applying it would remove fire or poision debuffs if they have it?

That's exactly what I was going for.
It's impossible to please everyone but if the majority of players agree then eventually they will adapt.

Bile is the best god and there really shouldn't be a 'best god' they should all have their benefits. Im also not talking about taking away anything from bile but buffing the food depletion so people can go longer without eating so a few may stray away and try another god.

Yes, it will have the same functionality that it has in spars except for melee attacks can break the shield block and cause damage.
Resistances are currently calculated by one set formula. I want to make them calculated on a per attack type basis so they are balanced. Not only that I do not want to have anyone be completely immune to anything aside from bile being immune to death attacks. I want someone who took the time to get 99 resist to have a noticeable reduction in an effect but not have no downside to sitting there and just taking hits.

It would be like casting on WoW. If you start a cast and move before it is done it cancels it.
Restoration scrolls are a plague and without a cooldown they shouldn't even have a place in PvP. I may look into somehow adding a cooldown to anything that heals a player instantly or maybe make them cause a speed debuff or something. I had not thought about scrolls so thank you for bringing that up
It would not be active in event levels.

A burst of damage over a short period of time.
Large amount of damage over a long period of time. By that i mean instead of 10 damage over 10 seconds it would be 15 damage over 20. Those numbers are meaningless but it is an example.

For now fear will stay how it is. I can see where you're coming from when you say that it is close to confusion but it is actually an entirely different effect.
Preferably it would be based on the victims hp and the cap of the amount able to be leeched would be based on the users physical level.

It's probably unlikely that a weapon will have poison, fire, and also acid.

If multiple people were attacking or someone swapped weapons after debuffing someone it would be possible.

That's just the rules of engagement. I strongly encourage developers not to design a padded room...

It's not a padded room thing it's just proper balancing. If it turns out balanced to apply 3 dots on a target then fine but I'm suspecting if you stack 3 dots on a target that tick with different intervals you're going to end up with some crazy chain stuns.

I disagree about adding a shield block, though obviously there's a reason behind it. A PVP fight already takes ages so allowing someone to block your hit only makes it worse, spar is completely different and unbalanced AC doesn't matter in real PVP but in spar heck it makes a difference im 5 ac and i get hit for an 85 in spar with a sword, and 114 with bow personally i think you should balance that more. Anyway the shield blocking I disagree I definitely don't wanna fight someone for an hour.

I also hear some Gods will be changed if possible make it a day where you won't lose exp if perhaps people wanted to switch, I don't want to re-level my stats again.

Danicides feedback provided via PM. He was able to write this wall of text but not able to spend 30 seconds registering on the forums. Just wanted to post this here since he took a fair amount of time writing it.

I like the idea of acid having AC reduction-- since that in-turn increases the damage of each attack (I think it was roughly 1 dmg per 5AC when I tested it with StormY).

What I want to know is-- do/will the dots from poison&fire do more damage with lower AC? Because I think that could be disastrous xd.

I was also thinking, what if the little resistance icons in the menu displayed above a characters head when they're infected with poison/fire etc? Sometimes it's hard to know what's happened when there's a wave of text in the bottom right-hand corner.

I realize the beloved B-Mode icon might interfere/start to look messy with all those icons. So maybe changing the color of a players text to identify their stance instead?

Red Text = B-Mode, Enemy Kingdom
Blue Text = B-Mode, but Neutral with your kingdom (or kingdomless)
Green Text = B-Mode, Kingdom Member/or allied with your kingdom
Yellow Text = P-Mode, Gold Status
White Text = P-Mode, Trial/Guest Status

What happened to this?

it was removed...

The resist_posion stats was not affecting the new poison attacktype, so it got disabled. We might add it back in the future.

That's better than it is now though, no? We'd probably all agree.

Not really. It made the resist posion totally useless, infact all items with poison resist would be useless too.

96 + poison resist and I am still poisoned just as easily and take as much of a stat hit as people without anywhere near that much. Not trying to be a smartass, but do we know if the poison resist actually works..?

Decided quoting both was apt.

I think we'd all trade poison resist as a stat even temporarily to have poison back to the way it was changed.

There are a lot of statistics that don't work properly. The point is that it was worth it

I just stop fighting when I go from 30/30/30 to 22/23/22 in a spar with 96+ poison resist. Just can't compete.

Yeah, I tend to ski out of the spar once I get poisoned.

:D

resist in pvp are lame. should only be used in pve to prevent making certain gods/items op and stackable.

They're useful in PvE though. Brigid's Shield of the Earth blocks out a decent amount of spell damage from monsters. Especially if scrolls are used as well. (Roughly +60 Resist Fire / Cold / Electricity.)

But yeah, the way resistances work in PvP is definitely lame.


Also, on an unrelated note, I fully support going to the new poison type instead of the old. It's just too game-breaking. Best of luck to you all on getting that problem fixed.

I wondered why i got poisoned so fast in event spars recently even after using holy pos, now i know why, perhaps tie in revamping gods along with the actual attack types? Ogma followers have a double edged sword with their blessings, they are very powerful but now they do not really have a way to resist that same attack type.

General
* Make food deplete slower and reduce players feeling like they need to stay bile. - Hopefully this will help diversify what gods are being used among the playerbase.

Does this mean Bile holy possession will have poison resist again? I've heard this is one of two factors that makes bile an ''OP GOD'' the factor not included is our resistance to fear being 100 and the fact that we don't have to worry about food. Balancing the deplete and removing fear from 100(fear lower then 100 has already been inputted I've heard has happened to new players who went bile) and not having poison resistance from our current holy possession makes us simply a PVE god. In spar its complete domination without poison resistance i'd hate to miss out on the next monthly spar.

it would take 30 seconds to reenable

That'd be cool.

reposting this because I thought it was a great idea, better than the stun, and worth me being told to my figurative face that it's not a great idea

The thing that's most annoying about poison resist (opposed to other "secondary attacktype" resists) is the fact that the amount of resist you have also affects the effects potency. This is not normal for a secondary attacktype.

Fear, blind, and confusion's potency isn't affected by the amount of resist you have-- only the % chance of infliction. This is what's unfair about poison, as having poison resist is CRUCIAL to PvP on GK.

You're either forced to switch to Ogma in order to compete, or sacrifice equipment slots for pieces of gear with Poison Resist-- which defeats the purpose entirely since you could be using those slots for stacking extra str/dex/con/hp. So you lose either way.

Poison should be reverted to its newer state where it's a simple DoT effect. Then the player can decide for themselves what resists are more valuable to stack (fear, poison, etc). But at least if a player decides not to stack poison because they hate another effect more, it won't give them an incredible disadvantage like it does in GK's current state.

EDIT: And Pojo's interpretation of fear is slick :cool:

Reading Dripz post is always so, so, painful.

Bile shouldn't have high-tier poison resistance in the first place. It doesn't make sense for him to compete with the Poison God in terms of resistances. He's weaker PVP, but he's not useless. Bile followers are still immune to diseases, all of them, and have a few potent ones themselves on top of cause many wounds.

Poison resistance also effects the potency of the poison, like Conqueror said. I get maybe -2,-2, -2, with holy poss on, most players get something along the lines of -10, 10, 10.

As an Ogma follower, despite having a clear advantage, I'd support the new poison coming back. I don't like how one-sided spars can be since many players are bile. I'd just hope lag doesn't follow.

From what I gathered they were pretty set on keeping stat reduction on poison

Well, if the stat reduction had a "set value" that is lost by everyone (3 str, 3 dex, 3 con), that wouldn't be as bad.

As long as poison resist doesn't affect the potency of the poison (Only % chance), it's a much more level playing field.

resist are already setup like that for everything

:confused:

I should have been more specific. The new/removed poison is/was like that.

Bring back. :cry:

Seconded.

And sean, even if I buff to 99% resist I have dropped to 22-22-22, or thereabouts before.