Pricing Changes - Why wait for v6?
 

I think we've all read in a few different threads that the way the pricing system works on Graal is to be changed when v6 is released. If it is true, and the way the pricing is done on Graal is going to be changed, why wait?

It's currently 10.16am (EST) and it's a Sunday; not really a time you expect to see high traffic on Graal. However, there's currently 483 players on Era iPhone and 1226 players on Classic iPhone. If you compare that to who is currently online on the PC version (58 on Maloria, 54 on Zodiac, 33 on Era, 11 on Unholy Nation) the difference (1709:156) is massive, or at least for Graal anyway. The two iPhone servers have 11x more players than the four PC servers, why isn't this being taken advantage of (lol) in a way that's positive to the PC community?

I've spoken to a lot of the iPhone players, a few didn't even realize there was a PC version, but a lot of them are aware. If you ask them why they don't play they'll say it's too expensive and responses like, "$40 for playing the same game with fewer people?" are not uncommon. I really don't blame them either, I don't pay for this, and I'd bet it's the same for like 90% of the people I know on Graal. Apparently this has been realized, but if you're going to be attempting to fix this, why wait for v6 to come out? I'm pretty sure the issues that would be addressed with a change like this are not connected to the client itself.

I agree with everything Rufus just mentioned ;

I recently bought an iPod Touch and started playing Classic iPhone and realized that hardly anybody knows about the PC version of GraalOnline, and even if they were to explore upon it they would be chased off from the high prices. I noticed the Classic iPhone prices and I believe everything that you could've purchased was under 5 dollars. Not only is Classic iPhone free to play but is also crowded with tons of players, why couldn't this concept be used on GraalOnline the PC edition?

Opening Graal up freely with the existing gelat system would not work. The gelat system would need to be modified or removed to allow for microtransactions. The existing gelat system still requires discouraging lump-sum payments for gelats, which has a similar effect to subscriptions.

At the heart of microtransactions is the impulsive minimal one-click purchase system, which iTunes makes very easy on the iPhone, but Eurocenter isn't capable of that. Before the payments system is revised Graal needs a better developer pool - either more developers or more organization within the existing developer group towards unified projects. Without better developers new players would quickly tire of the existing content. Important changes need to be made to Graal Online before it can be functional at a larger scale.

It's very important that we recognize the differences in audiences as well. iPhone users do not directly compare to Graal PC users; the two platforms are very different. Graal Online may be able to attract a much broader audience on the iPhone than possible on the PC - radically modifying the payment system won't magically flip the switch.

give developers the opportunity to receive a portion of cash-shop sales on the servers that they create while you're at it.

Really..? You aren't sure that getting new players to come by a cheaper price wouldn't bring new developers? I guess we need to explain the possible domino effect if we were to do so, If you do absolutely nothing to perk their interest at all, then you won't get anyone to come by of course. Let me explain how in obvious business logic.

If a customer comes up to your store and they look around and take a second to think "What is all of this?". In order to perk their interest; someone nice and accommodating needs to come up to the customer and say "Hello, can I help you?" and from there you need to keep them hooked with that attitude and point out the good in everything that you can instead of constant irritation. I agree that Cyberjourners/Eurocenter or whoever they go by persona wise has made major screw-ups, but are we really any better for not continuing to try to keep them with nice behavior? I know I may sound like I'm kissing the ass of those who've wrong players for years but it's just it's not just them 100%.

I have greatly modified my post since your initial response. It should clarify any confusion.

The microtransactions on the iPhone are gelat packs, which is what we have on here. The only difference is that gelats on there is the main currency, and something you can earn yourself if you want to put time into it. That (along with the charging of subscriptions on here) is the only thing that differentiates PC Graal to iPod Graal. I don't see how they are incapable of it, they do it already. I can understand that there is not enough content (at current) to charge for on here. However, the servers do have developers, and on servers such as Zodiac, Era, they have introduced things to a cash shop. With a little bit of imagination and work, I expect developers can easily integrate microtransactions into their respective servers.

The problem is going to arise sooner or later, why wait until v6 is out to address it? Why keep the inconsistent payments (subscription on all servers, microtransactions offered on some for free playing) and methods (observer mode being removed from a select few servers, etc) instead of introducing something that is both consistent and clearly more appealing?

I see, I take back my aggressive open and stand by the comment of it's not just their fault for having a lack of developer pool.

I strongly support microtransactions, I've been trying to get a shop API on Graal (for all servers to use) for the last two years. The initial goal was a GK Gelat shop. However, I don't think the existing system compares to iPhone's payment system - it's so slick that it leaves little room for second-thoughts. If Graal Online can do it, it'll work (although my concern then becomes their pricing).

It could be started immediately, but I'm not sure it will make any real difference until the developer problems are sorted. One of the big advantages Graal has on iPhone is the unified app store... it's very easy to find Graal. It's not so easy on the PC platform.
I'm not worried whose fault it is - it's a problem that will need to be fixed regardless.

Just gonna inject an idea that's been discussed before(Somewhat to death, Constantly fought about lag factors.)


Intergrate PC and iPhone together, I mean staff on there can get on for developmental purposes which was a good idea but we could seriously push the envelope by making it popular for kids and this is most likely what they'd think "Hey, I can play graal after I get off the bus? Cooooooooool!" and let anyone who knows how to make a dollar take it over from there and some advertisement would make this foolproof.

It's not all that uncommon iPhone users ask me for my opinion on whether purchasing a Gold subscription is worthwhile and upon telling them that the system may soon be changed to something for the most part cheaper and more similar to that of iPhone most say they have decided to hold out.

There may not be a high amount of decent content or active Developers currently but you would expect this to improve after a decrease in prices (and likely an increase in playercount) as opposed to before, the development climate isn't exactly getting better each year and so if a reform does take too long it's possible that the current crop of talented developers may no longer be there to make full use of it when it does happen.

If Graal had tons of players, I wouldn't be developing for it unless there was a system in place for me to receive payment for my work.

Right now it's just a hobby for me. I don't care that I'm not getting any compensation because I know they're not getting much out of it. However, if my work started generating a lot of revenue for them, I wouldn't do it for free anymore.

Just wondering, do any of the developers for iPhone receive any type of compensation? If not, you're getting used pretty hard.

Indeed, I wouldn't mind 10 cents an hour and 3 bucks a gani(6 for a set depending on complexity) If I got paid to do it.

• Player spends $50 on 100 gelats at graalonline.com because he/she is very interested in my server.
• Player uses gelats to buy something in a shop on my server.
• The 100 gelats are transferred to my account.
• I log on to graalonline.com and cash in the 100 gelats for $25

Graal makes $25, I make $25. Yay.

edit: could also implement a gelat transferring system so that I can transfer gelats to pay my staff members (maybe add a transfer fee or something, but that would be lame)

Genius.

You might be surprised how profitable gelat shops can be, even when used minimally. The gelat shop I added to Era has generated 563550 gelats as of right now, which is roughly $5,600 USD ($48 for 4400 gelats = about $0.01 per gelat). $5,600 isn't a ton of money, but I'd bet it pays the bandwidth bill. As long as gelat shops are done right (as opposed to how it was done on Zone), they work.
I'm using information from Era staff so I don't know if it's entirely accurate, but from the trend I saw before I was fired, it looks like it probably is.

All this stuff, yea.

Well, developers have to either pay for servers or pay for gold to work on servers...
Once done they then have to go through an annoying application process (whatever that may be) to be able to spend their time dealing with childish superiors and non-existent global support.

In the end you pay to waste your time, which is why Graal doesn't get the updates it needs. There are people here with the talent to do great things for Graal, but why would they pay to deal with all the bull**** when they can go off and work on a real game, make their own, or get a job doing the same thing and get paid?

Just my opinion here, but the whole system is backwards. And despite you trying to say it's not the payment, that goes hand-in-hand with development. So you kinda contradict, but both reasons would be right.

I guess...

I totally lost my point here, I stopped like 40 times while typing this to do other crap, *facepalm*.

Just flame and blah blah, I usually don't check this section of the forums anyway.

Oh and I wanted to say this is like right, and the gelat system if maintained and the items are constantly switched out and redone and worked around and stuff and things then it could be pretty awesome. Like when the potions were first added to the shop on Era, I saw thousands of them pumped out in the first few days because people with gelats wanted to try them, and people without gelats wanted to buy them. But as the price in Era-Cash dyed down so did the sales to just necessity. So if you were to keep changing it up, I'm sure the sales of them will stay up high. Like is it hard to make a potion image and add some random effect. Everyone likes new shiny things.

Ok I'm done, bye.

Honestly, the quality the players on the iPhone servers is dealing with I don't think you need to worry too much about PC Graal not having a quality server to keep them interested. Apparently all they need is an overworld to run around and chat on. This is depressing for me, considering I have high standards... but if it means getting rid of Gold faster then I'm all for it.

The pricing change should attract new PC players - not convert iPhone players (dilution). The quality of the existing content is fine although I anticipate PC users will grow disinterested if it's not updated regularely. As a result users will very likely stop microtransactions.

It feels counter-intuitive, but merging content & developers from poorly performing classic servers into a new or revised "gold" server would help focus development and unify developers. This will not be possible unless you have the interest of community leaders and a means of managing developers to avoid in-fighting. In my "Sprints" document I outlined an incentive program which would appropriately achieve this goal.

And v6 is suddenly going to change the quality of the servers? It was a planned change for v6, so it's going to happen whether there's a good server out there or not.

I also don't see any quality servers surfacing any time soon. Some of them out there have potential, like Delteria and Atlantis, but there's always some server that has potential. That doesn't mean it's going to actually come out, or come out soon enough.

Okay first you show possible uncertainty towards your statement by say ing "It sounds counter-intuitive,"

But working on Gold servers would make no sense since most if not all developers are Classic member players.

@Dusty, I agree with you servers having potential. Problem is no one else will see it until its brought to surface. People want new servers but they just shrug it off as if a god is going to bring it up all of a sudden which is pretty arrogant. :(

I believe you misinterpreted this.
It would be deceptive if I tried to present it any other way.
The new pricing scheme would obsolete the existing subscription (gold) service.

I guess you got a point there, But I think people can tell what you were saying context wise :p

Also maybe gold service's time has come..?
People have wanted classic only for years.

It has been explained to me that there will no longer be subscription levels. This leads me to believe that it will be entirely microtransaction based, which certainly makes the most sense. I'm all for the idea, but the product cannot remain viable if the content stagnates - which is exactly what would happen if only pricing is changed.

I'm suggesting development restructuring to encourage unity and focus among talented developers and an incentive program to build momentum BEFORE pricing changes. It would be a terrible shame if Graal changed their payment system, attracted a bunch of new players, and then permanently lost the interest of a greater majority due to content stagnation.

Oh okay I see. Well a good idea but would you like to establish upon that? You seem to have something in mind and I'd rather not comment until you've fully explained yourself.

If servers suddenly start getting hundreds of players, I think staff would be a little more motivated to actually do stuff. :)

http://www.harvestmkt.com/images/cli...small_4ji3.jpg

Agreed, and I come back to the idea I presented before.

@Stephen
What will motivate us as the developers for servers to unify together and work for other servers? We're all different in how we work and it simply would come to creative difference problems which would also be a disaster. That's pretty much why we have different servers. I know you don't give two ****s so much but these are questions that must be answered before your idea is even considered valid.

Ideally an appropriate incentive program would help developers overlook their differences.

Unfortunately I disagree, Ask a handful of developers "Is there a developer from each server you hate or very much dislike?" and you'll get "Yes, I hate or dislike -insertsomerandomdev-. -Random sentence stating how much they dislike or what happened to made them dislikeable- I wouldn't work with them even If you paid me." Expression or not it only proves my point that prejudice is something we can't work over with simple "incentives" and trying to please every developer will only lead to even more disaster.

The average developer may eat cake, neo-Graal would be for only the most talented. They will see the opportunity and rise to the call. :)

Well they'll only pick up the phone If it's presented properly and so far I'm unconvinced through the circular logic you're presenting to us all.

I've answered your questions multiple times. Please don't distract from the initial topic, as it is very important to the whole community. We all want to discuss necessary price changes and other high priority considerations.

Forcing a merge or anything similar is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

Again, I believe you misunderstood my message.

We can all agree that simply changing the price will not fix the problem; changes need to be made within Graal or we will quickly lose our new customers for the same reason our old customers are leaving.

I don't care if it's possible or not, it's still stupid. People have been spouting this, "if we all just work together!" thing for a long time and it never made sense.

No one is trying to change the price to fix any problems except one. We just want to get rid of the ****ty subscriptions. That's a HUGE ****ING PROBLEM in itself. Worry about the other stuff later. Either way **** isn't going to get done when you're relying on people doing stuff for fun and hoping they do the work for you. Especially when we have to pay to do their work for them.

This is a real threat.
If they officially implement an incentive program on a specific server the developers will follow - it is the administration which needs to answer the call to action. The members of this community have done enough.

It's ALWAYS been a threat. But like I said, a more active playerbase will be a better incentive to develop. Right now most servers are stuck with the same small playerbase, most of them a bunch of ungrateful, selfish ****s who don't appreciate anything. I don't blame them for not doing anything.

This "It has been said, therefore it will happen" logic is flawed and idiotic.
I'm gonna leave you guys up to discussing it I've said all I can really say without overstepping my ground.

:)