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  #16  
Old 11-08-2002, 10:04 PM
Kaimetsu Kaimetsu is offline
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Re: sadly

Quote:
Originally posted by syltburk
we were talking about lack of level makers


well when Shadowless and mmmmkay leaves


what do u think gonna happend?
Same thing that's always happened. mmmmkay spent most of his time on a private server without much affecting the quality of levels anywhere else. I don't even know what this Shadowless guy does. Graal has always had bad levels but it doesn't really matter because, in reality, nobody cares. Level makers are at the very bottom of the ladder because even really bad levels are sufficient. With scripts or graphics things are far more demanding but nobody is gonna bat an eyelid if there are four little grass things in a level when there should be five. Heck, a random generator could make sufficiently good levels for any normal project.
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  #17  
Old 11-08-2002, 10:09 PM
zell12 zell12 is offline
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The generator cannot do what a person can. Its limited to a certian amount of tiles and cannot randomise grass, detailing, etc... And the levels, gfx, and scripts must be good and work with eachother in order to give top quality.

I'm not sure that he was referring to mmmmkay and shadowless as you took it. They were just good developers and mmmmkay taught alot of people good techniques.
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  #18  
Old 11-09-2002, 09:18 AM
Kaimetsu Kaimetsu is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by zell12
The generator cannot do what a person can. Its limited to a certian amount of tiles and cannot randomise grass, detailing, etc... And the levels, gfx, and scripts must be good and work with eachother in order to give top quality.
'Top quality' is debatable. Most 'good' levels are far too crowded and detailed and end up distracting the player.
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  #19  
Old 11-09-2002, 09:26 AM
Waltz5 Waltz5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kaimetsu


'Top quality' is debatable. Most 'good' levels are far too crowded and detailed and end up distracting the player.
That's exactly what I was saying, players have come up with this new idea that there must be no plain green tiles in the level.
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  #20  
Old 11-09-2002, 09:26 AM
SupermanJR SupermanJR is offline
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Umm.. See.. That makes me mad. As a Level Maker my self, i'm annoyed when people tell us we are the at the "Bottom of the latter".. It's sickening. It's not easy, and players do care about the quality of the levels. When Gaia was up, guess why they only had a few people? Simple. Levels were god awful. The Graphics are EXCELLENT, though a little off the style of graal.. But either way, great. It's NPC's are better than most.. But the main factor why they don't get players are the levels. So, don't put the Level Makers down. mmm'kay was a great level maker, and one to be remembered. Haunter.. No idea who that is.
Script Monkeys such as your self; don't put us as Level Makers down. You're just a far down the latter as us. LAT NAT and GFX are the ones that have a level 2 RC.. We're nothing special, but like hell we're not needed. Level Quality is a must..Maybe I took what you said wrong, but either way I'd like to make that crystal clear.
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  #21  
Old 11-09-2002, 09:43 AM
Waltz5 Waltz5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by zell12
Just remember, I have changed. I am not a cold hearted bastard that could care less about someone at certian times no more. I Wub You All! <3
Oh no pick me, I am uber l33t... ho-hum :o.
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  #22  
Old 11-09-2002, 09:51 AM
Kaimetsu Kaimetsu is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by SupermanJR
Umm.. See.. That makes me mad. As a Level Maker my self, i'm annoyed when people tell us we are the at the "Bottom of the latter".. It's sickening. It's not easy, and players do care about the quality of the levels. When Gaia was up, guess why they only had a few people? Simple. Levels were god awful.
Indeed. A random generator would have made better levels.

Quote:
The Graphics are EXCELLENT, though a little off the style of graal.. But either way, great. It's NPC's are better than most.. But the main factor why they don't get players are the levels.
The NPCs were pitiful. The levels were awful, true, but I'm not saying that bad levels don't break a server. I'm saying that, past a certain point, it doesn't much matter how good your levels are. As long as you can throw together a simple layout without making hundreds of tile errors, you're a sufficiently good level maker. Levelling isn't a fine art; it's just the process of making the paper on which the scripting and the graphics are written.

Quote:
So, don't put the Level Makers down. mmm'kay was a great level maker, and one to be remembered. Haunter.. No idea who that is.
Mmmmkay was excellent, yeah. He had a great deal of talent, I don't deny that.

Quote:
Script Monkeys such as your self; don't put us as Level Makers down. You're just a far down the latter as us. LAT NAT and GFX are the ones that have a level 2 RC..
Don't be foolish, I'm not talking about the power ladder. I'm not talking about RCs and junk like that. I'm talking about influence on a server. A scripter can make Graal into anything he wants. He can implement any game design feature he chooses and radically change the gameworld in doing so. A level maker just fleshes out the world that the scripter creates. Hell, I'm even making a 3D server. How useful will level makers be to that?
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  #23  
Old 11-10-2002, 03:35 AM
Graal2001_LAT Graal2001_LAT is offline
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I do not really care who's atop the ladder. All I know is I worked hard, many hours for the last two years to get where I am now. I've made unbelievable amounts of levels.

And me personally can't play on servers with poor levels. I guess that's why I got into Level Design rather than Scripting or making Graphics.

None of this relates to the thread really, but whatever.

I've tied up all the knots now, so it's time for me to leave. Farewell.
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  #24  
Old 11-19-2002, 05:22 AM
Kiluminati Kiluminati is offline
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Re: Re: sadly

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaimetsu


Same thing that's always happened. mmmmkay spent most of his time on a private server without much affecting the quality of levels anywhere else. I don't even know what this Shadowless guy does. Graal has always had bad levels but it doesn't really matter because, in reality, nobody cares. Level makers are at the very bottom of the ladder because even really bad levels are sufficient. With scripts or graphics things are far more demanding but nobody is gonna bat an eyelid if there are four little grass things in a level when there should be five. Heck, a random generator could make sufficiently good levels for any normal project.
ok so can you explain me this?? why is it when anyone is posting in the playerworlds section about a new playerworld, everyone says show us some screenshots of your levels...they dont say show me examples of scripting or graphics...so you cannot say that level making is at the bottom of the ladder..
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  #25  
Old 11-19-2002, 09:41 AM
Kaimetsu Kaimetsu is offline
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Re: Re: Re: sadly

Quote:
Originally posted by Kiluminati

why is it when anyone is posting in the playerworlds section about a new playerworld, everyone says show us some screenshots of your levels...
Because that's all they can see. Look:

Quote:
they dont say show me examples of scripting
What, you want a shot of the script window or something? You can't show scripts in static shots, the whole point of them is that they're dynamic.

Quote:
or graphics...
Graphics are part of levels. By showing levels, you supposedly show graphics at the same time.

Quote:
so you cannot say that level making is at the bottom of the ladder..
I already did. Scripts shape worlds, graphics define them, levels just fill them out. Level makers just decorate the worlds that the scripter creates. There are also far fewer scripters and artists than tilers, so practitioners of these disciplines are in much higher demand.
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  #26  
Old 11-19-2002, 10:21 AM
zell12 zell12 is offline
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Scriting requires more patiance and you must be willing to learn it. Level making just takes alot of pratice and learning from mistakes and tips from others.
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  #27  
Old 11-19-2002, 11:33 PM
Gangster88 Gangster88 is offline
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levels are more important than scripts in my opinion,
when i get on a new server i walk around, the first impression is always the levels, and if they arent good i go to another server

honestly kai, do you wanna play a server whit theese levels?
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  #28  
Old 11-19-2002, 11:57 PM
syltburk syltburk is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gangster88
levels are more important than scripts in my opinion,
when i get on a new server i walk around, the first impression is always the levels, and if they arent good i go to another server

honestly kai, do you wanna play a server whit theese levels?
honestly ferret, do you wanna play a server with lack of fun.

Everything is important.
Scripting is important for systems and developing in graal, as for fun etc.
LATs level makers is important, becuse if we wouldnt have any graal wouldnt be here today.
Graphic makers make graal look better wich Level Makers also do.



They are all important, and no one are more important then another.
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  #29  
Old 11-20-2002, 03:55 AM
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I'm open to help and or teach. Gimme a ring :P

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  #30  
Old 11-20-2002, 10:26 AM
Kaimetsu Kaimetsu is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gangster88
levels are more important than scripts in my opinion,
when i get on a new server i walk around, the first impression is always the levels, and if they arent good i go to another server

honestly kai, do you wanna play a server whit theese levels?
You're not listening to me. That happens a lot around here.

I didn't say that it wasn't important to have decent levels. But all a server really needs is levels that have been planned well and don't make people wince in disgust. Maybe the best scripter in the world can make fancy patterns of flowers and things but it's not important. As long as the levels are of a certain base quality, everything's fine. A random generator can do the job as well as a human, because at least that doesn't make mistakes.
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