Observer Mode pending removal!

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by dbug

Well I ment as in like a 1 time upgrade.. sorta a lifetime for that server subscription. since it's already "free" to play like era and zodiac.. but i see your point.. hmm

theres gotta be something equal UN could offer tho. besides selling items. honestly maybe sell hat's? since thats pretty big over there.

It's irrelevant, Stefan has said he doesn't want PlayerWorlds using in-game incentives and transactions, but to all use hard coded restrictions (Zodiac and Era included), while in the present the servers with observer mode must continue to suffer.

That said, the supposed map restriction could effectively limit trials to low HP.

[DustyPorViva]

So what system are PC servers meant to run under? Are they still using the global gralat shop or what? On iClassic/iEra they just use in-game gralats as a currency, which helps a lot in giving players a choice. They can either just buy more in-game gralats, or they can actually obtain them in-game at a much slower pace. This is what cash shops are about. But is that even possible on PC? I mean, if UN were to go to such a system what would stop staff from just collapsing the system by giving their friends tons of gralats? All it would take is someone with a single RW level to do his bidding.

I guess on PC the global shop is the only secure way to have such a system because of exploits. I feel maybe Stefan should instead set up a server config when enabled locks down things like player.rupees and such. That way servers can opt for an iServer sort of set-up, and not worry about one rogue staff exploiting it all.

[dbug]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

So what system are PC servers meant to run under? Are they still using the global gralat shop or what? On iClassic/iEra they just use in-game gralats as a currency, which helps a lot in giving players a choice. They can either just buy more in-game gralats, or they can actually obtain them in-game at a much slower pace. This is what cash shops are about. But is that even possible on PC? I mean, if UN were to go to such a system what would stop staff from just collapsing the system by giving their friends tons of gralats? All it would take is someone with a single RW level to do his bidding.

I guess on PC the global shop is the only secure way to have such a system because of exploits. I feel maybe Stefan should instead set up a server config when enabled locks down things like player.rupees and such. That way servers can opt for an iServer sort of set-up, and not worry about one rogue staff exploiting it all.

Couldn't they add a login script and a server option so they could lock rupee's down and still provide access to them? like limit how many can be given via script? log potential abuse.. or how would servers provide gralats without abuse?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by dbug

Couldn't they add a login script and a server option so they could lock rupee's down and still provide access to them? like limit how many can be given via script? log potential abuse.. or how would servers provide gralats without abuse?

I think if Gralat's were locked, only specific scripts would be able to add them(for example on iClassic that would be the actual Gralats NPC dropped by bushes, and the script that gives gralats for bugs sold); and it would be logged.

[dbug]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I think if Gralat's were locked, only specific scripts would be able to add them(for example on iClassic that would be the actual Gralats NPC dropped by bushes, and the script that gives gralats for bugs sold); and it would be logged.

Well once iZone comes to PC maybe this will be the beginning to the new way of how things work.. It might be the first test to how a system like this may actually work? tho I dont see how you would get gelets on zone for ezample? same with era.. arent there currency different?

[avengis]

Originally Posted by Stefan

I'm sorry but the observer mode cannot be removed yet. Unholy Nation is a special case because it's not based on leveling or so, so that limitations are not necessary making as much sense as on a server like Zodiac or Kingdoms.
Our goal is to make Graal more free-to-play, but it's not that easy since the servers are mainly made and managed by player staff and the money is made in selling items to player, so things like the item system and economy need to be more secured. Hopefully we can do more about this in 2012.

its great when youre gonna make a point, but another likeminded induvidual saves your efforts for you

[dbug]

at least we got graal 3d as promissed some time later.. and for only a short time.. tho i dont know if anyone ever answered wether they were trying again to have obs mode removed or not

[Starfire2001]

Originally Posted by dbug

at least we got graal 3d as promissed some time later.. and for only a short time.. tho i dont know if anyone ever answered wether they were trying again to have obs mode removed or not

Having talked about it with Okilian, can say that belief of UN management is that working on removing observer mode right now would be fruitless. Have come to this conclusion from watching Classic struggle and fail to get Observer mode removed from their server and because of what Stefan has said in this very thread. That said, though I can't speak for Oklian here but am sure he'd agree, if I was given any reason to believe that we could get observer removed I personally as a UN Developer would drop all other projects I am involved in to do whatever was necessary to get it removed. If we don't get observer mode removed, no matter what else we do the server is going to eventually die.

I've mentioned it in other threads, but on the off chance Stefan will read and consider this, I think its fairly easy to set up restrictions on UN that would give trials incentive to upgrade without making the game near unplayable as is the case with observer mode.

So here's my simple proposal:

1) Limit trials to level 2 shield. UN uses default movement system, so that means trials will move slower than regular players which puts them at a huge disadvantage. Sort of similar to Zod having a level cap.
2) Make trials unable to play team events. Restricts trials, and at the same time prevents a team being destroyed by trials.
3) Trials can't gain hours/kills/deaths in CastleWars (so they can't get any of the rewards for participating) and are limited to 25 or so spars a day.

Think that would be more than enough, together with the trial restrictions that already exist on the server. Would likely be able to draw more players this way, which would mean more people who could potentially upgrade.

[DustyPorViva]

1) Disable stat tracking for trials. Kills, deaths, hours, AP and so on should all be locked at default. Surprisingly many players take these things seriously.

2) (at least applicable to UN) Can only participate in X amount of spars/events a day. Starting off there will be plenty to get players potentially interested in the server, but afterwards the only replay value will probably come from events and sparring. Again, no stat tracking so they'll always retain default spar rating until they upgrade.

3) (Again, mostly for UN and servers like it) Do not let them spend EP, or other rewarding currency. Let them obtain it, but they can't spend it unless they're upgraded.

4) Default load out of looks, obviously. iClassic also offers this as an incentive, and does it much better than observer, with a more generous load-out of heads and such. However to have custom heads, or access to the thousands or so available they'll need to upgrade.

5) No access to bonus customization aspects. For example UN has the Rent A Room or whatever.

All of these things can give a player incentive to upgrade while not putting them at a gameplay disadvantage to other players. It's not going to incite a player to pay to play a game when he can't even try it on equal/fair grounds with other players.

However Stefan has a point, and something I have touched on before -- it's pointless if the servers are not secure. This sort of program isn't going to work if corrupt staff are just going to manipulate scripts and work around things for their friends and such. That's a big deal, but how that's settled is a different matter.

[ffcmike]

I should point out once more that despite multiple requests Stefan has never made any effort to explain what security measures he expects, or shown any acknowledgement of existing measures. As of 2 weeks ago he also said something on the lines of that he doesn't even see why observer mode is bad.

[dbug]

Originally Posted by Starfire2001

So here's my simple proposal:

1) Limit trials to level 2 shield. UN uses default movement system, so that means trials will move slower than regular players which puts them at a huge disadvantage. Sort of similar to Zod having a level cap.
2) Make trials unable to play team events. Restricts trials, and at the same time prevents a team being destroyed by trials.
3) Trials can't gain hours/kills/deaths in CastleWars (so they can't get any of the rewards for participating) and are limited to 25 or so spars a day.

Think that would be more than enough, together with the trial restrictions that already exist on the server. Would likely be able to draw more players this way, which would mean more people who could potentially upgrade.

Yikes!

I would agree with Dusty slightly more then you. Letting them earn the EC but not spend it is rather genius.. the idea is the more ec you get.. the more tempting it is to upgrade.. ur basically cashing in on a gold mine at that point.

25 spars a day is insane high, i never participated in more then 5-10 and that was considered jaw dropping amount for me.. 25 just doesnt restrict non-sparrers enough.

As dusty said AP, Kills, Deaths... restricting those from profile would be a huge deal on a server like UN.. and very easily accomplishable. VERY EASY !!

Maybe you could also add proper guidence for questing and limit the number of hearts they can earn?

Just curious, but why not impliment these systems, THEN argue with stefan? At least you'll have alot more ammo to fight your war. I could imagine stefan hears ALOT of "hey if i do this can we have ths".. and even if he replied sure they just lose intrest in graal.. happens ALOT.. and not just with stefan.. where people ask if they can do something then never pursue it again.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

I should point out once more that despite multiple requests Stefan has never made any effort to explain what security measures he expects, or shown any acknowledgement of existing measures. As of 2 weeks ago he also said something on the lines of that he doesn't even see why observer mode is bad.

Thor, hes basically thinking.. hey I watch tv.. why are commercials bad? he upgraded your playing experience so you no longer reset account upon login.. destroying HOURS (sometimes 10+ hours) of hard work.. just by inserting a comercial. We all know better.. its bad for Graal.. but if you guys dont take the first step to impliment a new system.. why should he bother answering questions?

I know you mention concern for security but he wont mention how.. that would require him to be extreamly knowledgable with ALL of the scripts.. which hes a busy man he just phisically cannot keep track of EVERY server.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by dbug

Thor, hes basically thinking.. hey I watch tv.. why are commercials bad? he upgraded your playing experience so you no longer reset account upon login.. destroying HOURS (sometimes 10+ hours) of hard work.. just by inserting a comercial. We all know better.. its bad for Graal.. but if you guys dont take the first step to impliment a new system.. why should he bother answering questions?

I'm not trying to pour scorn over suggestions, just saying that it's all very much contrary to the obstacles, I feel as if we're going around in circles here.

Originally Posted by dbug

I know you mention concern for security but he wont mention how.. that would require him to be extreamly knowledgable with ALL of the scripts..

There is no reason he would need to be knowledgeable of a server's systems to be able to express what level of security he expects. On the other hand showing him copies of scripted security measures along with a brief description should only take a few minutes to skim over and judge.

[Starfire2001]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

All of these things can give a player incentive to upgrade while not putting them at a gameplay disadvantage to other players. It's not going to incite a player to pay to play a game when he can't even try it on equal/fair grounds with other players.

I don't disagree with you, but from what I've read I really think an imbalanced system is exactly the sort of system Stefan is looking to set up. And while it might not be ideal, it would be better than what we have now.

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

However Stefan has a point, and something I have touched on before -- it's pointless if the servers are not secure. This sort of program isn't going to work if corrupt staff are just going to manipulate scripts and work around things for their friends and such. That's a big deal, but how that's settled is a different matter.

Originally Posted by dbug

I know you mention concern for security but he wont mention how.. that would require him to be extreamly knowledgable with ALL of the scripts.. which hes a busy man he just phisically cannot keep track of EVERY server.

That's why I made the proposals that I did. It would be extremely easy to both implement the restrictions I suggested and for someone to check to make sure they were still being followed. Something like making it impossible for trials to spend EP would be a lot more difficult (though not impossible, and if that's what it takes we'll do it) to do since UN has tons of different shops/items for sale in the middle of nowhere, most of which all use different scripts.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Starfire2001

I don't disagree with you, but from what I've read I really think an imbalanced system is exactly the sort of system Stefan is looking to set up. And while it might not be ideal, it would be better than what we have now.

I don't see why Stefan would be interested in side-stepping from one gameplay crippling set-up to another. The iOS servers have already proven that the set-up they use works, so why not implement it on PC? Then again I'm not suggesting he wouldn't, but that it would be in his better interest to mimic a system he knows works, rather than screwing around with gameplay-limiting mechanics again.

[dbug]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I don't see why Stefan would be interested in side-stepping from one gameplay crippling set-up to another. The iOS servers have already proven that the set-up they use works, so why not implement it on PC? Then again I'm not suggesting he wouldn't, but that it would be in his better interest to mimic a system he knows works, rather than screwing around with gameplay-limiting mechanics again.

Right, which is going to be interesting to see if said systems also carry over when zone for iphone becomes accessable via the pc client as opposed to the traditional facebook only.. if it can confirm that said changes benefit graal more-so then previously tried and failed methods it may appear to be more appealing to pursue that path.

still he did it with era and zodiac.. no other server is even interested in taking the first initial step of implimenting and proving it works, secured, and etc before asking for premission.

I still think implimenting your system and proving it works (not just pointing at other servers that are different that have similar goal of removing obs mode)... u gotta remember.. graal is trying to make you pay for something.. but everyone complains it makes the game unplayable in such and such areas.. thats...the...point..

like on classic they wanted to block the bridge heading north.. to my knowledge events would still work.. first quest would still work (and while i think you should be able to do slightly more then 1.. maybe 3 quests? 5?) allowing all but the "newest" quest wouldnt work as the trials would go psh ill just wait for another quest to come out and do the next one for free.. o-o tho limiting the level to the bridge? thats stupid stefan.. really.. theres a much better line you could draw that allowes (some but not all questing).