Developing should be free for servers that are staff-only

[cbk1994]

Being a "development platform", I would expect even greater emphasis on updating the tools that we need to develop, yet I've seen virtually no updates in several years.

[jorollychu]

sounds guude

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Being a "development platform", I would expect even greater emphasis on updating the tools that we need to develop, yet I've seen virtually no updates in several years.

Who cares? RC works. GraalEditor works. GraalShop works. If these tools weren't good enough, we wouldn't have any servers.

This is what I don't really understand. These tools work just fine. You're just upset that they don't work the way you want them to. Well, you know, you deal with what you're given. If you don't like, if you can't use the tools, then don't develop. The likelihood of you stopping is nil, though, because the tools do work well enough for people to make servers.

It's okay to ask for features. But, hell, you make it sound like you're being neglected; like you can't develop at all.

Originally Posted by Hiro

do you know how many more players there are than developers?

I would hope that there are a lot more players than developers, otherwise the whole development community wouldn't be doing its job... It doesn't change the fact that GraalOnline is a development platform, though. The whole goal for developers is to create a game that people like, using the tools we've been given to create that game.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Being a "development platform", I would expect even greater emphasis on updating the tools that we need to develop, yet I've seen virtually no updates in several years.

You've paied, more then once I assume, for the tools you have been given. That does not give you any right what so ever to demand more tools, all you can do is ask for them.

It's simple really - if you don't like what there is already, then DON'T pay.

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

You've paied, more then once I assume, for the tools you have been given. That does not give you any right what so ever to demand more tools, all you can do is ask for them.

It's simple really - if you don't like what there is already, then DON'T pay.

Fake argument.
You don't throw the television out of your window because you don't like one show.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

I would hope that there are a lot more players than developers, otherwise the whole development community wouldn't be doing its job... It doesn't change the fact that GraalOnline is a development platform, though. The whole goal for developers is to create a game that people like, using the tools we've been given to create that game.

yes but it isn't enough to say that "graal's now a development platform" as a way to get out of making content. the complaining about the updates for the tools and such are just an example of graal trying to transition over to something it never exactly was - we didn't always think of graal in these terms, and i'd go as far to say that we shouldn't think of it as such. we are losing players, so how exactly is the development community doing it's job? also, there will always be more players than developers in the first place - it isn't an indication of a community doing well when there are more players, that should be a given fact - the indication is how many new players are coming in, which has been on the decline ever since graal started focusing more on development and other projects instead of graal itself, and relying heavily on the small group of developers to provide everything

i realize that as staff and a developer you feel inclined to defend the position of power that developers have been given in graal, since they are now the main focus of CJ in terms of updates and support. but i don't see how this means that players themselves should stop being supported. why support the minority of pessimistic idealists when there could be a lot done for the majority of dedicated players? graal could still be treated as a development platform while still supporting content and updates for the players themselves, and the argument that "client updates are for players" is plain bull****, especially since that's all they're receiving, and especially since this isn't how things were done for a long time and the changing focus has obviously hurt the community of graal

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Graal hasn't been a game in and of itself since Playerworlds came out, buddy-o. When it became the responsibility of playerworld developers to make games, Graal became a development platform. How successful Graal is depends wholly on how successful each playerworld is, which further depends on the developers that work for it. Graal's success, for the most part, does not rely on frequent updates from Stefan. When developers get it in their mind that they cannot develop without frequent client updates, or frequent engine updates, then that's when quality of gameplay goes down, including the playercount. It has to be like this, because the "game" is actually each "playerworld", not the client itself. This is how it's been for a little less than a decade. It's nothing new.

If anything, it's those developers' faults that the playercount isn't increasing, coupled with the increased costs of upgrading an account. But if the content was worth paying for, then people would pay for it. Since developers are the content makers, as they should be on a development platform, it's their fault if people aren't upgrading their account. If upping the price means upping the quality of content, then so be it; developers need to get their asses in gear and start doing something new and worth paying for. That's not to say that prices aren't outrageous. But arguing about prices isn't going to change them, so the focus needs to shift on making the content worth paying for.

To do that, Stefan does need to do some things. I have faith that he's doing them. The problem for most developers is that he's not releasing those things fast enough.

I hope you're starting to understand, though, that developers are the ones who give content to the players, not GraalOnline. GraalOnline provides the client, developers provide the game. It's that simple. Whatever server it that you play, is the server you need to start demanding updates from. If you start demanding tons of content from GraalOnline, then developers are going to get short-changed, and the outcome is going to be a situation worse than what it was before you demanded the content.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Graal's success

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Graal hasn't been a game in and of itself since Playerworlds came out, buddy-o. When it became the responsibility of playerworld developers to make games, Graal became a development platform. How successful Graal is depends wholly on how successful each playerworld is, which further depends on the developers that work for it. Graal's success, for the most part, does not rely on frequent updates from Stefan. When developers get it in their mind that they cannot develop without frequent client updates, or frequent engine updates, then that's when quality of gameplay goes down, including the playercount. It has to be like this, because the "game" is actually each "playerworld", not the client itself. This is how it's been for a little less than a decade. It's nothing new.

If anything, it's those developers' faults that the playercount isn't increasing, coupled with the increased costs of upgrading an account. But if the content was worth paying for, then people would pay for it. Since developers are the content makers, as they should be on a development platform, it's their fault if people aren't upgrading their account. If upping the price means upping the quality of content, then so be it; developers need to get their asses in gear and start doing something new and worth paying for. That's not to say that prices aren't outrageous. But arguing about prices isn't going to change them, so the focus needs to shift on making the content worth paying for.

To do that, Stefan does need to do some things. I have faith that he's doing them. The problem for most developers is that he's not releasing those things fast enough.

I hope you're starting to understand, though, that developers are the ones who give content to the players, not GraalOnline. GraalOnline provides the client, developers provide the game. It's that simple. Whatever server it that you play, is the server you need to start demanding updates from. If you start demanding tons of content from GraalOnline, then developers are going to get short-changed, and the outcome is going to be a situation worse than what it was before you demanded the content.

and once again, you only perceive the problem from a developer's point of view, and it's obvious to me that you have never been an actual player of graal, despite what you might retaliate and defend otherwise. you act as if CJ has never created content before, and that the game has never focused on the player before, and that just isn't true. you also act like the players are satisfied with what's out there, or that it is somehow the fault of the developers that there is no leadership or direction. i don't think you realize the extent of stefan's influence on the game, both to the players and to developers

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by Hiro

and once again, you only perceive the problem from a developer's point of view, and it's obvious to me that you have never been an actual player of graal, despite what you might retaliate and defend otherwise. you act as if CJ has never created content before, and that the game has never focused on the player before, and that just isn't true. you also act like the players are satisfied with what's out there, or that it is somehow the fault of the developers that there is no leadership or direction. i don't think you realize the extent of stefan's influence on the game, both to the players and to developers

Haven't seen any of this influence for a few years now, except for the people who go stupid/annoying when he logs on RC.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Hiro

and once again, you only perceive the problem from a developer's point of view

I am a developer, after all.

Originally Posted by Hiro

and it's obvious to me that you have never been an actual player of graal, despite what you might retaliate and defend otherwise.

Years 1-3 of playing.

Originally Posted by Hiro

you act as if CJ has never created content before, and that the game has never focused on the player before, and that just isn't true.

Then playerworlds came out.

Originally Posted by Hiro

you also act like the players are satisfied with what's out there

It's pretty evident that some aren't.

Originally Posted by Hiro

or that it is somehow the fault of the developers that there is no leadership or direction. i don't think you realize the extent of stefan's influence on the game, both to the players and to developers

Exactly what kind of leadership and direction do you want? All you people ever post are lofty requests, that can never be fulfilled because they're so vague and inaccessible. Are you wanting Stefan to drop everything and create a playerworld for you? What?

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Exactly what kind of leadership and direction do you want? All you people ever post are lofty requests, that can never be fulfilled because they're so vague and inaccessible. Are you wanting Stefan to drop everything and create a playerworld for you? What?

currently i'm waiting for him to at least address the problem publicly, or to post something hinting as to what CJ is even doing right now

honestly, i want any leadership and direction since we don't have any at all. it doesn't even have to be stefan, it could be any developer who's wise enough to pull it off, whatever "it" is. currently, i don't see anyone stepping forward to make a difference, nor do i see anyone from CJ stepping up to address the problem. "you people" who constantly defend the position that graal is in seem to think that graal will just magically pull itself out of the rut by some divine developing community power, while the players (who are pretty much powerless since they can't develop) complain that nothing is being done, or opt for humble indifference towards graal

the sad thing is i already tried making a thread to promote a developer's circle of individuals who could brain storm a project to help revive graal, with the premise being that we were on our own and that it is our problem to solve. no one stepped forward, no one thought it would work, the thread ended up being locked because of the different topics it brought up. now when i try to advocate that CJ should take the problem and mold it into a solution, you tell me that it isn't their responsibility nor has it ever been - well then when are you of the developing community going to do something about it? you're still paying to develop but you aren't trying to save the game at all?

[FaLLChiLD]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

..
I would hope that there are a lot more players than developers, otherwise the whole development community wouldn't be doing its job...

Because it's the developers job to pay for Graal and make it, as CJ profits, amirite?
I think that's enough reason to be upset about no upgrades regarding the game itself or the tools used to create it.

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by Hiro

the sad thing is i already tried making a thread to promote a developer's circle of individuals who could brain storm a project to help revive graal

A lot of developers have their own projects (I am working on Zodiac V2), we don't need someone who played Classic/G2K1/whatever server 5-8 years ago to stop what we're doing and create some server that will have the same effect comparable to the release of old servers in the past.

Do I think my project is going to revive Graal? Frankly I don't care, I only care about my own server, and attempting to please whoever may play it. I have to assume the playercount will be around for when I want to release but it's not something that you can expect to get done in a month.

Now.. Our current tools work, however they're extremely outdated but they can be improved in Graal v6 when developing tools will run out of Graal itself, allowing for scripted improvements, and personalization (I hope).

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Hiro

currently, i don't see anyone stepping forward to make a difference, nor do i see anyone from CJ stepping up to address the problem. "you people" who constantly defend the position that graal is in seem to think that graal will just magically pull itself out of the rut by some divine developing community power, while the players (who are pretty much powerless since they can't develop) complain that nothing is being done, or opt for humble indifference towards graal

I took over Maloria since I want to create something unique and lasting for Graal, that will have high enough quality to be able to be advertised on the Internet. To achieve something like that doesn't take one night, and I'm personally not one to release half-assed content or be satisfied with decent work when I know something better can be done.

Player complain when they don't see updates? Of course they do, but just because they don't see them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

All you need to have is faith in the project you're working on, and in the people working with you. Sadly a lot of projects never see their finished result, due to the majority of developers not being able to stick with things for more then a week.