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  #1  
Old 11-25-2007, 01:25 AM
Googi Googi is offline
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Diversifying the server

Although I don't think new content is truly necessary to revive the server, it can serve a useful function in doing so provided that it's done right.

The main problem with 2K2 content-wise is that it's built up in depth but not in width. Any new content that's going to improve the server's ability to attract and retain players needs to give players truly new things to do. Things like battle island and new training dungeons do not provide truly new things to do. They provide new places to do old things.

One way of creating truly new things to do is to incorporate content from other servers into 2K2 (things like Era's business system), allowing 2K2 to become "many servers in one", although this would take a lot of scripting work (though it wouldn't need to require a lot of level-design work).

At least one fairly unique (to Graal) idea I've come up with that could generate truly new things to do is an expansion of the pet system. As a FAQ I've discovered that a surprising number of newbies have a great deal of interest in pets and expanding the system (maybe with something like pet battling) would allow the server to exploit this market.
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Old 11-25-2007, 01:51 AM
Stephen Stephen is offline
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At least one fairly unique (to Graal) idea I've come up with that could generate truly new things to do is an expansion of the pet system. As a FAQ I've discovered that a surprising number of newbies have a great deal of interest in pets and expanding the system (maybe with something like pet battling) would allow the server to exploit this market.
A sort of pseudo pokemon? I guess that could be cool.
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Old 11-25-2007, 02:00 AM
Tigairius Tigairius is offline
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A sort of pseudo pokemon? I guess that could be cool.
I agree, nice idea, Googi.
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Old 11-25-2007, 03:05 AM
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*poke poke* I disagree (hopefully in a constructive way) about your comment on the "depth" of things to do in the server. I personally find it about as narrow as it is shallow.

Here's a few of my ideas. You can argue them amongst yourselves if you want but I'm not going to hang around arguing them.

1: Smaller HH's. Currently, they're unrealistically huge, sprawling, and basically just a run around one-hitting everything for the more advanced players. To balance this out, add more, higher level HH's.
1a: An alternative. Have different level "areas" in each HH. Moreso then what we have now. Have areas geared towards MUCH higher players, with extremely tough monsters, and more low level areas for the beginners to play around with.
1b: Doors and traps. Have doors and traps automatically adjust to the level of the person opening it. That way, the traps will always be difficult to spot/disarm, and will always be dangerous. Making one think carefully about opening that door. (Also adjusting door HP to the first person who tries to beat/blast it open.)

2: Mega sprawl dungeons. Do we really need those overly complex labryinths that no one really goes through anyway except to look for some obscure chests or a few important paths to rex spots and kingdom warps? Size them down, save server space to load up more useful levels elsewhere. Smaller dungeons, and more of them.
2a: Scatter the potion chests across the lands. Such as a cave at the top of the big mountain in NW main. You must fight through several tough monsters in order to reach the chest.

3: Better develop kingdom islands themselves. Some DO need some sort of standard monsters running around. Not nearly as much on main, but pockets here and there. Mining of resources is really a chore as is. It may pose a challenge to beginners, but for the more advanced players it really is a huge chore. Add more convenience mines to the kingdom islands, and trade that convenience off with harder time consuming challenges of different types elsewhere.
3a: Easier house/plot customization. The method of using houses is very unique and somewhat enjoyable. The only other game I've seen do a good job is a Runescape. But it has a single portal which each player can use to go to their own seperate house. Which they can actually build up pretty big. That method wouldn't be necessary and would probably take away the "charm" of the islands, but being able to have a plot "assigned" around your house (the size should be variable and at the discretion of the person with the H right).
3b: Stuff to actually do with those plots. Like grow permanent flowers/vegetables/trees. Save the more indepth stuff for down the road.
3c: "Addon" flags, costing significantly more each time. Buy an addon flag for a HUGE sum of plat and have it automatically "sticky" to the side or back of a house when placed. Once approved, one must spend the resources to build a second houses, which has two indoor levels connected by a door. At maximum.

4: Economy. The economy runs on diamonds, various scrolls, gold keys and event coins, various gems, and event items. It's more of a high-value barter system. The plat has been virtually phased out because there's so little to DO with it other then buy out stores to get rare spawns. As more and more content gets added to the game, store items and services need to become significantly more expensive to make it crippling to a player who -doesn't- have a lot of plat.
4a: The excessive random spawns in shops are a bit heavy in some places. Some shops do need more static spawns. Trade off.... make'm tons more expensive.
4b: Smaller shops, more of them. I love the atmosphere of the smaller potion shop underneath the big shop in Bogenera. There's nothing wrong with a super-market, but we need a few more quaint ally shops.
4c: I would almost recommend special places with which to "buy" high end items. Places like travelling shady merchants who only get new items now and again regardless of how fast they get bought. These higher level elitist shops should be the ones where the rare and powerful items occasionally show up in.

5: More resource/production items. Give something for the packrats to dig up. Make some manual labor/gathering jobs for beginners to do. Add resources that can be difficult to get (and in new locations such as mines with tough monsters in them.) but sell for a nice chunk of cash. Also, a wider resource base means more potential later on.
5a: Create MANY more craftable items, and I don't mean more swords. We got plenty of those. Other things, shields, armors, boots, gloves, capes, etc. With a wider range of resources with a range of difficulties obtaining them craftable items with good stats can become quite difficult to obtain. This would also put emphasis back onto making items for the low to mid levels. (As well as take emphasis off of lording for some resources to make a rather mediocre item.) Also, some craftable items should match or even surpass some of the event items. In payoff, they need to be hard to craft (and I don't mean Event Coin hard). Make ET items more for show, or the very rare, really powerful item. [Should also help solve the current issue with there being so darned many ET items right now. Once they get diluted in value, they can still be handed out like candy, but since they'll have lost their overall use and value it won't be nearly as bad.]

6: Monsters. We need more, a lot more, and higher end content. We also need a few specials hanging around that could make King John cry. Recolors may be the spawn of satan, but these are desperate times. Make a recolor, add a few changes (like an extra pair of horns or twenty) and run for it. It's called a placeholder for a reason. Add something unique and innovative down the road AFTER the game content has had a major bump.
6a: Maps. Yes, maps keep getting harder and harder. They have a nice, linear pattern of development. But once there is a significantly larger monster database of all difficulties we can get a few more different kinds of maps for each difficulty level.
6b: Kingdom maps. Maps that only work on a kingdom. Unique monsters, kingdom specific if you really wanted to be fancy. Same difficulties, just more footwork.
6c: "God maps". This is just some idea I had while toying around. These maps drop, and when you go into one, cult monsters (yes you'd have to add some of these and get that spell working) of your god's opposing god will spawn and fill the map. Once you clear the map, you don't get plat as much as a nice prayer exp bump determined by the level of the map.

7: Quest improvements. Once there's a lot more content (and believe it or not, more land), maybe some story/adventure type quests can be added like other online games. For right now, I don't think that's as important. I'd recommend more quests similar to the "Kill x monster" or "Gather y item" quests. Repeatable, vary a lot, different types of rewards. Make these more or less difficult depending on the current content of the game, and you'll have a loose quest system that adjusts to suit gameplay.

There's probably a dozen other things that can be done, even Googi's pet system. (Although I don't like the pet battling idea. I think its something we don't need yet. Just make it easier, make it so you can't accidentaly hit your pet. Make it so they come back with full food after a server restart (unless that's been fixed already), and possibly allow some really awesome recolors through breeding. That should be good enough for now. These suggestions are basically the things that I think should be done FIRST in order to bulk up the foundation of the game. Once its more like one of those fancier games out there, then we can continue to grow and adapt it into something very unique. But until then people barely play, people get burned out with insane grinds and trying to catch up with other players, and I for one like to enjoy a game by packratting a HUGE library of items and taking part in diversified activities and environments.

[[I'm not even gonna talk about addressing balancing issues, or making things fairer. Seriously... don't even start. How do we even know the current issues will even BE an issue once a bunch of serious development is started? And if its really that much of a problem, drop kingdoms down to a classic world, start the diversified game as a new kingdoms, and allow for a "partial" one-time crossover from old to new.]]
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  #5  
Old 11-25-2007, 04:26 AM
Googi Googi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakeero View Post
*poke poke* I disagree (hopefully in a constructive way) about your comment on the "depth" of things to do in the server. I personally find it about as narrow as it is shallow.
Depth is a relative term. It's developed in depth because it has a large amount of content in a few areas relative to the amount of content it has in other areas.

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HH's, dungeons, things that involve stronger monsters
The only actual real barrier to the monsters we already have being able to give even the strongest players a tough time is their inability to break through armour. Monsters like bigworms can deal quite a bit of damage if it weren't getting nullified. Just give monsters the ability to break through armour and brutals instantly become very difficult. I strongly suspect that most people who say they want stronger/tougher/more monsters don't actually care about having stronger/tougher/more monsters, and what they really want is just a faster way to get exp.

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3: Better develop kingdom islands themselves. Some DO need some sort of standard monsters running around. Not nearly as much on main, but pockets here and there. Mining of resources is really a chore as is. It may pose a challenge to beginners, but for the more advanced players it really is a huge chore. Add more convenience mines to the kingdom islands, and trade that convenience off with harder time consuming challenges of different types elsewhere.
Been suggested quite a few times before, and isn't a bad idea but doesn't improve the server's marketability.

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3c: "Addon" flags, costing significantly more each time. Buy an addon flag for a HUGE sum of plat and have it automatically "sticky" to the side or back of a house when placed. Once approved, one must spend the resources to build a second houses, which has two indoor levels connected by a door. At maximum.
This is pretty much the same thing you can do with housing scrolls (is there really a difference between a second room connected by a door as opposed to a second room connected by stairs?) Plus housing scrolls let you make your own levels for your house. Although it's a feature I quite like, it doesn't seem to be something that interests very many people, and I can't really see an effective way of expanding it further.

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4: Economy. The economy runs on diamonds, various scrolls, gold keys and event coins, various gems, and event items. It's more of a high-value barter system. The plat has been virtually phased out because there's so little to DO with it other then buy out stores to get rare spawns. As more and more content gets added to the game, store items and services need to become significantly more expensive to make it crippling to a player who -doesn't- have a lot of plat.
I don't see why the obsolescence of platinum as a currency for player-player transactions is regarded as some sort of problem. What makes it a better currency than diamonds?

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4a: The excessive random spawns in shops are a bit heavy in some places. Some shops do need more static spawns. Trade off.... make'm tons more expensive.
Similar to the idea I and a few others have put forward of high-cost-high value craftables, it's not a bad idea and can give people a better incentive to work. I'm for this and have been for a while, but it's not a server-saving solution.

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4b: Smaller shops, more of them. I love the atmosphere of the smaller potion shop underneath the big shop in Bogenera.
You're the only one. People don't hang out in levels because they enjoy the "atmosphere". Not for more than a few seconds anyways.

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These higher level elitist shops should be the ones where the rare and powerful items occasionally show up in.
Not as good as high-cost-high-value craftables. This is just a different form of random item distribution.

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5: More resource/production items. Give something for the packrats to dig up. Make some manual labor/gathering jobs for beginners to do.
Good idea if done right. Unfortunately doing it right requires making precise calculations that we aren't very good at making.

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5a: Create MANY more craftable items
High-cost-high-value craftables. Already talked about this.

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7: Quest improvements. Once there's a lot more content (and believe it or not, more land), maybe some story/adventure type quests can be added like other online games.
As I've said before. Traditional quests are extremely inefficient. They take a ton of development time for something players do once.

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For right now, I don't think that's as important. I'd recommend more quests similar to the "Kill x monster" or "Gather y item" quests. Repeatable, vary a lot, different types of rewards. Make these more or less difficult depending on the current content of the game, and you'll have a loose quest system that adjusts to suit gameplay.
Not very different from the haunted house and gold key quests we already have. Expand it? I'm not sure. Something being repeatable doesn't ensure that it will be repeated.

The primary problem is that most of your suggestions are just things you suggested because you like them without really thinking about what kind of target market they would have and how big it is. Even if an idea is good in that it isn't damaging or is mildly beneficial to the server, it has to be balanced against the development time it takes to implement it. The question is whether the most efficient use of development time is to put it towards targeting the market we're already targeting, or targeting new ones. I say it's targeting new ones.
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Old 11-25-2007, 04:34 AM
Drakeero Drakeero is offline
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Well, I've got two theories. One, let's not struggle to reinvent the wheel, let's look at the basic concepts that make other games popular. We don't need to steal their unique stuff, just use the basic formate they all use. That's what I generally tried to propose, and I hope you can argue the finer points of that.

The rest of my solutions which don't seem "server-saving" are indeed not server-saving because I doubt there's any one improvement, even a major one, that could save the server. I'm hoping that a standard MMO base which is quite tried and true as well as better atmosphere and playability will just let people have more fun and be more inclined to stay.

"Why run around HH killing the same monsters again and again and again when I can be in _______ game and do <some engrossing activity that takes up just as much time but is a hell of a lot more fun>."
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Old 11-25-2007, 05:19 AM
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Pet battling actually wouldn't be too bad...but uh, Drake, can you fix your tag under your nickname?
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:01 AM
Googi Googi is offline
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The rest of my solutions which don't seem "server-saving" are indeed not server-saving because I doubt there's any one improvement, even a major one, that could save the server. I'm hoping that a standard MMO base which is quite tried and true as well as better atmosphere and playability will just let people have more fun and be more inclined to stay.
Graal can't offer a better version of what the big games have. It can only offer stuff they don't have.
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Old 11-25-2007, 08:02 AM
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My suggestions are this. One MAJOR problem new players have is the complete murder they get when they enter the game. They cant even kill Shel bomies sufficently. Then after they can actually kill those they cant kill anything else at all because the monser damage, life, and the skill required to battle them at that level is something that they cant contend with only a "Sabre." There needs to be a nooby island with nooby monsters, like really. And there they can level until about 5-10 and while there they can do quests or have outside mines where they start off with a pick axe and a weapon and they can create their beginning items right there. This would allow them to be on par with the monsters currently on Main. They would warp from that (for lack of a better word) "safe-zone" to main and they would be better equipped to take on standard monsters that populate Main such as evil bomies, mushrooms, battle potatoes, etc. And the difference in gear, level, and health needed between those and Wolves, Deviels, Heviels, and others is just as bad as Shell Bomys -> Evil Bomys, battle potatoes, and mushrooms. Yes that may not save the server, but thats why we are getting absolutely NO new players, Its to fricken hard for them to go from a noob to being able to kill things. I personally have been going to HH west and getting them Flaming swords, Silver platemail, and Silver Warrior helmets, but that still isnt enough. We need a balance between the levels.

Honestly Ive never developed a level or scripted in my life, but if I can get someone to show me the program that you use to create levels and script then I will personally make a nooby island with craftables on it with outside mines and areas that they can get GOOD tutorials. Id need someone to be able to script it likely but Im willing to try to do something, rather then **** here and watch you guys argue about whats insufficient and what WONT save the server.


Googi, you may have alot of knowledge, that im not doubting, but dont dog on people and Drakes ideas because they arent server saving. Oh well? Hell, atleast he's presenting ideas. =\
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Old 11-25-2007, 08:27 AM
seanthien seanthien is offline
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Don't feel like reading all that, but here's my thoughts on it.
Zone had updates, and it brought that gold server, why won't it work for gk?

Pokemon?! Zomg, I GOT level 2 MONKEH! OWNED,zomg, i get to choose one of my level 2 spells for it to learn now! hm..maybe since monkehz can only use magic. I should get a different pet that can only use my armor,etc. :3

Agility dungeon sounded nice( Idea from a while ago), but that would be for more skilled people. :3.

Graal News: Gk Now has a pokemon like pet battle system! Come on now everyone log on and get your own pet! We will have a tourny every week and/or month to see whos the best!Don't forget, each pet has there own little special advantages!

I think that should attract quite a few players.
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Old 11-25-2007, 08:48 AM
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I think that should attract quite a few players.
Until it gets old 2 weeks later.
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Old 11-25-2007, 09:27 AM
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6: Monsters. We need more, a lot more, and higher end content. We also need a few specials hanging around that could make King John cry. Recolors may be the spawn of satan, but these are desperate times. Make a recolor, add a few changes (like an extra pair of horns or twenty) and run for it. It's called a placeholder for a reason. Add something unique and innovative down the road AFTER the game content has had a major bump.
You make me laugh.

I say go for it though, need a monster that I can't take out in 1 HIT O_O.
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Old 11-25-2007, 09:34 AM
Googi Googi is offline
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Until it gets old 2 weeks later.
Truthfully, the pet thing was just tacked on because people don't like threads with purely concept. In order to be something that could get players to spend a lot of time on the server, it would have to involve things like pet training and pet equipment. The question then becomes whether training a pet is somehow sufficiently different from training yourself that it would allow for the exploitation of a different market. I've seen some weak evidence that says yes, mainly that games like Neopets attract a market considerably different from that of other MMOs, but there are plenty of other ways to explain that besides pet-training orientation vs. character-training orientation. The pet thing is meant to be an example rather than a suggestion and isn't what the thread is about.
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Old 11-25-2007, 09:35 AM
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A shame bomy fighting was never finished on 2k1, always seemed like it would be fun. There was also a lot of interest in something like that, so it could help.
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Old 11-25-2007, 03:21 PM
dNeonb dNeonb is offline
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At least one fairly unique (to Graal) idea I've come up with that could generate truly new things to do is an expansion of the pet system.
Right about that, Stefan once planned to extend the pets so you can give them items and they can carry the stuff for you around. Like after you mined or chopped some trees and got lots of wood they would be able to carry the stuff home for you.
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