Why are small minimalist overworlds deprecated?

[Cubical]

A few filler levels aren't a problem, there is a problem with servers like GK where 98% of the overworld go unused by players and 90% of that 98% isn't even used for anything. Not just because all that content took ages to develop, or that all that content was developed without any plans of putting anything there but that work could have been put into creating other content that would stand a purpose and occupy some more of the players time. A lot of levels on servers with Classic status have absolutely no reason for players to visit them more than once and that's just to see what is in that house.

If kingdoms were to be made by say Dusty or just some random person, it would have never made it past hosted in the state it is currently in with the type of content it has right now. Although I'm sure Dusty would have done quite a bit better of a job with the server I was just throwing a name out there of a good developer. The only thing that kept me playing GK for thousands of hours was the allure of trading. If I had had to actually pay for my gold I would have stopped after my first 3 months ran out. GK has close to no content and everything could be downsized. I can almost guarantee the player count would rise if it were to make everything a bit closer than it is right now.

[Bell]

Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly care for gmaps myself. My point is that we have to live with them so its up to us to figure out a way to work around the problem and utilize them to the best of our ability.

All servers that have been around since pre gmap eras seem to have the same problem. Too many years of various developers adding their own things to make it 'their' server which in the end results in a cluster..mess of broken or useless stuff. That doesn't mean that the server should just be summarily trashed though.

[Cubical]

Originally Posted by Bell

Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly care for gmaps myself. My point is that we have to live with them so its up to us to figure out a way to work around the problem and utilize them to the best of our ability.

All servers that have been around since pre gmap eras seem to have the same problem. Too many years of various developers adding their own things to make it 'their' server which in the end results in a cluster..mess of broken or useless stuff. That doesn't mean that the server should just be summarily trashed though.

The way I look at things is, developers need to not waste their time making levels like 'Alfonso's House' which has nothing in it except for an npc that says 'Hey, my name is Alfonso and I have lived in this house for 99 graal years'. In the time it took them to create that level they could have put a part of the servers storyline into that level to draw players constantly to it. Better yet, they could turn 'Alfonso's House' into 'Alfonso's Shop' and have it sell a random weapon that is chosen each day from a list. You want to expose as much content as possible to the players even if your server has a 10x10 overworld and another server has a 30x30 with every level filled, you have more of a chance keeping players when they have a reason to go back to content more than once or twice which is a waste.You could have spent half the time you spent filling out that overworld making random stuff and put it into a few awesome pieces of content that players would enjoy over and over.

Edit: bigmap.txt also worked similar to gmaps but I guess people just couldn't figure out how to use it.

[Bell]

Originally Posted by Cubical

The way I look at things is, developers need to not waste their time making levels like 'Alfonso's House' which has nothing in it except for an npc that says 'Hey, my name is Alfonso and I have lived in this house for 99 graal years'. In the time it took them to create that level they could have put a part of the servers storyline into that level to draw players constantly to it. Better yet, they could turn 'Alfonso's House' into 'Alfonso's Shop' and have it sell a random weapon that is chosen each day from a list. You want to expose as much content as possible to the players even if your server has a 10x10 overworld and another server has a 30x30 with every level filled, you have more of a chance keeping players when they have a reason to go back to content more than once or twice which is a waste.You could have spent half the time you spent filling out that overworld making random stuff and put it into a few awesome pieces of content that players would enjoy over and over.

Edit: bigmap.txt also worked similar to gmaps but I guess people just couldn't figure out how to use it.

I think developers build personal houses because its the only way they have of putting their signature on that server. I do completely agree with your logic in all this though.

I don't think that an inability to use bigmap.txt was that much of a problem. I just feel that in Stefans vision of Graal, gmaps were the next phase of the project to replace them.

[DeCeaseD]

Answer to the question in this thread: Most Graalians lack the imagination to actually create something small but useful. Instead they make huge over worlds so they don't have to worry about making things useful, so in turn they can just randomly place things and label them as they go. "Oh, an unused house? Well that's simple, make it into someones apartment!".

[Bell]

Originally Posted by DeCeaseD

Answer to the question in this thread: Most Graalians lack the imagination to actually create something small but useful. Instead they make huge over worlds so they don't have to worry about making things useful, so in turn they can just randomly place things and label them as they go. "Oh, an unused house? Well that's simple, make it into someones apartment!".

Then I expect to see a nicely tiled, finished interior, not a blocked door!

[Lord Sephiroth]

You'll have to forgive Crono every time he's given a gmap he fills in the empty levels with MASSIVE CLIFFS that just piss off the people that have to work with it. =p

[DeCeaseD]

Originally Posted by Bell

Then I expect to see a nicely tiled, finished interior, not a blocked door!

Well that would be another problem with these big bulky maps, is that they end up flooding themselves with so much useless work that they can't finish the work they put upon themselves.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by lord sephiroth

you'll have to forgive crono every time he's given a gmap he fills in the empty levels with massive cliffs that just piss off the people that have to work with it. =p

THAT WAS LIKE 4 YEARS AGO AND ONLY ON BABYLON OK? caps

[Bell]

Originally Posted by DeCeaseD

Well that would be another problem with these big bulky maps, is that they end up flooding themselves with so much useless work that they can't finish the work they put upon themselves.

Hence why I believe that if someone is going to use a level generator they should make a map that they can actually manage. Its far simpler to expand later than it is to come up with ideas as to how to fill a massive map first thing.

[DeCeaseD]

Originally Posted by Bell

Hence why I believe that if someone is going to use a level generator they should make a map that they can actually manage. Its far simpler to expand later than it is to come up with ideas as to how to fill a massive map first thing.

I most definantly agree. I personally prefer to make smaller maps that are connected. That way you can just add on as you go, make different locations, make different LOOKING locations, so on and so forth. But, like I said earlier.. most just lack any type of creative imagination when it comes to Graal, so they assume by making a bigger map, they can just add a bunch of useless crap, and make up what they are as they go along.

[Cubical]

Just came across this and realized it has something to do with one of the points I was making. I also agree with most of what he said even though Wans levels are beautiful.

Originally Posted by konidias

I think it's complete garbage. No offense, and this is just my opinion... but why do people go through all the time and effort to make these elaborate levels which lack any real creativity or design? You're simply using like every tile you can find to make some insanely complex tiling that doesn't even make sense.

Take the 3rd level for example. You're using what are supposed to be beach tiles for ocean shores, as standing water tiles. You focus so much on your "mad awesome tiling!!11" that you don't focus on adding trees, or signs, or tables and chairs so people can like... sit down.

Honestly, if this level was online I'd avoid it at all costs. It doesn't look pleasant to be in at all. Walking through that upper water area would be hell. You'd constantly be falling in water and popping back out like 20 times just to get from one side to the other. You've got a tree stump out there in the middle of nowhere... Who cut that tree down? Some guy who decided "hey, I need some lumber, I think I'll cross this insanely zig-zaggy watery terrain to get to that one tree way over there so I can cut it down and then cross the water all over again to take back the logs."?

I would say 95% of the LATs on Graal today don't take anything into account except "is my level crazily tiled enough?!?". It's really annoying and a horrible direction to take Graal's levels in.

This kind of level wouldn't even be found randomly in a fantasy world, let alone actual real nature.

Here are some things I like to take into consideration when making levels:

1. is it somewhere people would like to go to hang out
2. does it serve any purpose other than showing your ability to make crazy tile designs?
3. are there focal points in which players can rest their eyes on instead of just non-stop chaos (as in your levels)
4. why are the objects in the level there, and why does it make sense for them to be there
5. is this level comfortable to walk through, or is it too complicated and messy?

Sorry that I blew up like this but I needed to get it off my chest.

/end rant

[FaLLChiLD]

Originally Posted by Crono

THAT WAS LIKE 4 YEARS AGO AND ONLY ON BABYLON OK? caps

Lol, I remember this. The whole top of the GMAP. ^_^

[Elk]

Originally Posted by DeCeaseD

I most definantly agree. I personally prefer to make smaller maps that are connected. That way you can just add on as you go, make different locations, make different LOOKING locations, so on and so forth. But, like I said earlier.. most just lack any type of creative imagination when it comes to Graal, so they assume by making a bigger map, they can just add a bunch of useless crap, and make up what they are as they go along.

Most just lack organization...

[Kamaeru]

I think it would be interesting to go back to not using gmaps...

2D Zelda games would be wack as **** if they used something like gmaps.