Open Discussion: Attack Types and the Future of PVP

[Cubical]

Let me start off by saying these ideas have not been approved and this is an open discussion. I am outlining what my plans are should they be approved. Just as I have posted my suggestions you may post yours or comment on mine or others.

As many of you know recently I've been tasked with revamping attack types and PVP in general. If you've logged on Kingdoms since July 4th and attempted PVPing you've noticed that poison has been changed drastically and Fear is now working. I'll cover the exact details below of my current plans and what has been done so far and would like your input on them. A big issue in the past with Kingdoms aside from the lack of constant updates has been not getting enough input from the players. While nothing in the thread is set in stone until it has been approved by Nico and moved to the main server I do not think my opinion nor any single member of the current staff team should dictate the direction PVP should go as everyones opinion is different. I'm hoping to roll out these updates frequently (weekly or biweekly should I have the time to work on it.)

Keep in mind that I want to hear what you guys want to see for PVP not just responses to what I've posted. I plan on keeping the PVE element the same for now so lets leave that out of this discussion.

General
* Make food deplete slower and reduce players feeling like they need to stay bile. - Hopefully this will help diversify what gods are being used among the playerbase.
* Remove knockback when players attack other players. Knock back will stay when a monster hits a player.
* Add shield block like the one present in the arena - Make it have a 20% to block damage 50% chance to reduce damage 20% chance to not reduce any damage.
* Revamp resistances
* Change casting. Make it so you are not locked into a cast and are still able to move
* Add a freeze time when equipping a wand to prevent running and healing. - Will only be for the equipping phase.
* Add a Countdown timer after giving or taking damage before being able to enter or exit a building to prevent running from PVP.

Attack Types
* Poison - No stat reduction but applies a burst DoT
* Fire - Long DoT that does a large amount of damage but spread out of a long period of time so it will not be as noticeable. - Getting in water will remove the debuff
* Fear - Reverses Keys
* Ghosthit - Chance of a second hit
* Slow - Captain Obvious
* Cold - Reduce attack speed
* Blind - Reduce the dreaded minute blind to about 10-15 seconds of pure darkness
* Acid - Lowers AC for a short amount of time
* Drain - Leeches life



I'm at work currently so I'm keeping this short but I'm sure I'm missing some of the other things I would like to do. Please stay on topic by keeping this solely about PVP

[Conqueror]

Sweeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!! Stuff is actually happening!!

Removing the knockback could make daggers/fists incredibly vicious again-- so that's interesting for sure.

I REALLY like the shield block idea. Surely more people would start using their shields if something like this were in place. PvPing would be less "swing your sword randomly" and more tactical and precise like in the Spar Arena. But giving it a % chance makes it so it's not overly-used to the point where someone is just countering every swing. Or maybe that could even be a new stat on some items? (+5% block increase) etc.

I don't agree with the proposed "10-15 seconds of pure darkness" for blind. (Assuming you mean the screen is entirely black for 10-15 seconds). So much can happen in that amount of time, at least in a spar event with 20+ people. Mind you, on the overworld it wouldn't be so bad since there's so much space to randomly scramble about until your vision is returned. But for any major spar event-- this would give the dianceht users an incredibly one-sided advantage.

I always thought it'd be neat if for spar events everyone's Speed, HP, AC/WC and weapon/shield was some sort of default. So literally everyone has a balanced chance (even new players) in the spar events. There would be 0 reason for people to complain anymore about items-- it would be based purely on skill like any old classic server. And then obviously, people would have their gear and stuff for PKing on the overworld.

[Stephen]

I'm just going to focus on this for now - if you focus on too much at once it can become overwhelming.

Originally Posted by Cubical

Attack Types[/B]
* Poison - No stat reduction but applies a burst DoT
* Fire - Long DoT that does a large amount of damage but spread out of a long period of time so it will not be as noticeable. - Getting in water will remove the debuff
* Fear - Reverses Keys
* Ghosthit - Chance of a second hit
* Slow - Captain Obvious
* Cold - Reduce attack speed
* Blind - Reduce the dreaded minute blind to about 10-15 seconds of pure darkness
* Acid - Lowers AC for a short amount of time
* Drain - Leeches life

These sounds great. I like fire (water debucc, cool) and ghost hit is a great idea too. Regarding blind, perhaps 5-10 seconds of pure darkness would be more appropriate - testing will tell for sure, but even 5 seconds may be too much. I would like to see Acid do damage like fire, but without the water debuff.

Regarding drain, you mean the attacker regains HP from the damage drain deals? I like this idea a lot.

[Conqueror]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Regarding drain, you mean the attacker regains HP from the damage drain deals? I like this idea a lot.

There's an attribute on bile's blessing called "life stealing", which I believe already does this-- but the effect is hardly noticeable.

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Cubical

Let me start off by saying these ideas have not been approved and this is an open discussion. I am outlining what my plans are should they be approved. Just as I have posted my suggestions you may post yours or comment on mine or others.

As many of you know recently I've been tasked with revamping attack types and PVP in general. If you've logged on Kingdoms since July 4th and attempted PVPing you've noticed that poison has been changed drastically and Fear is now working. I'll cover the exact details below of my current plans and what has been done so far and would like your input on them. A big issue in the past with Kingdoms aside from the lack of constant updates has been not getting enough input from the players. While nothing in the thread is set in stone until it has been approved by Nico and moved to the main server I do not think my opinion nor any single member of the current staff team should dictate the direction PVP should go as everyones opinion is different. I'm hoping to roll out these updates frequently (weekly or biweekly should I have the time to work on it.)

Keep in mind that I want to hear what you guys want to see for PVP not just responses to what I've posted. I plan on keeping the PVE element the same for now so lets leave that out of this discussion.

Glad to hear you want to make this a public discussion. There are bound to be some things most players may not agree on, but that's alright. At least we'll see what people are interested in most.

Originally Posted by Cubical

General
* Make food deplete slower and reduce players feeling like they need to stay bile. - Hopefully this will help diversify what gods are being used among the playerbase.
* Remove knockback when players attack other players. Knock back will stay when a monster hits a player.
* Add shield block like the one present in the arena - Make it have a 20% to block damage 50% chance to reduce damage 20% chance to not reduce any damage.
* Revamp resistances
* Change casting. Make it so you are not locked into a cast and are still able to move
* Add a freeze time when equipping a wand to prevent running and healing. - Will only be for the equipping phase.
* Add a Countdown timer after giving or taking damage before being able to enter or exit a building to prevent running from PVP.

* Well, hopefully it doesn't get a lot of people to switch off of Bile too. I know Bile already has a ton of benefits, but still.
* I kind of worry about this one. I know knockback is a kind of annoying effect in combat, but a lack of it allows players to 'pin' others down in corners or against objects more easily. I kind of like what Conq said about only certain weapons having it removed. Mostly short-range weapons, since that means you have to get in closer to other players to actually hit them. Bows, especially, should still have some kind of knockback effect since it means needing to re-aim after a few shots.
* Any use for shields would definitely be great. People have wanted them to reflect stuff for a few years now, but from a mechanics standpoint, I don't think that's possible without some very complicated coding. So blocking is the next best thing. Are there any plans for what to do about their effect against spells and arrows, though? Will they be handled any differently? (It would be nice to have them totally block arrows, and reduce spell damage.)
* In what way? Making them more or less important?
* Well, just make sure people aren't allowed to move and cast. Moving should probably interrupt the cast, not allow for both at once.
* A lot of the time, running and healing is done with scrolls rather than wands. Adding a freeze time to wands only punishes casters, and doesn't really address the problem directly. Why not add a cooldown time for healing spells? (That is, you can only heal so many times each minute.)
* How long of a countdown time are we talking about here? Would this impede the ability to simply leave in the middle of an event spar? (For example, in Bomboria or Hotaru's arena? I know they have lock-out features already that prevent players from re-entering during events.)

Originally Posted by Cubical

Attack Types
* Poison - No stat reduction but applies a burst DoT
* Fire - Long DoT that does a large amount of damage but spread out of a long period of time so it will not be as noticeable. - Getting in water will remove the debuff
* Fear - Reverses Keys
* Ghosthit - Chance of a second hit
* Slow - Captain Obvious
* Cold - Reduce attack speed
* Blind - Reduce the dreaded minute blind to about 10-15 seconds of pure darkness
* Acid - Lowers AC for a short amount of time
* Drain - Leeches life

* The terms 'burst' and 'dot' kind of mean two different things, but nice to see this change. :]
* I kind of worry that you pair the terms 'large amount of damage' and 'long periods of time,' but I really like the idea of being able to remove burns by soaking in water.
* Again, I think doing something different with fear would be nice. It just too closely resembles confusion in my eyes. (Reversed keys vs. attacking in the wrong direction.) Both deal with messing with player's directional facings, and I'm wondering if this could be made to either make victims actually flee in different directions or cower in place for a short duration. Alternatively, it could also slightly reduce Attack or WC for a limited amount of time. (As kind of the opposite of what acid does.)
* Kinda weird, but at least ghosthit would finally be good for something.
* Well, yeah.
* Probably a lot better than freezing players altogether.
* Yeah, a solid minute of blinding is rough. Most effects should not last as long as a minute, or even 30 seconds in most cases. GK has had a history of having status effects that are often overwhelming, and it would be good to work on those first. (Poison being the most prominent example, and thankfully it has finally been addressed.)
* I definitely approve. Certainly makes a lot more sense than poison doing the same.
* Hopefully this will be based on a low percentage or a fixed number, because the HP return rate, I imagine, will probably depend on how much damage you're doing in the first place. I would recommend no greater than 10 percent, if even that much, because when stronger players are fighting weaker ones they may do more damage and thus return more HP to themselves, giving them an incentive to pick on weaker players for more health.


Also, if possible, could you list the other attack types and what they do currently in your first post? I'm curious as to whether depletion (as an attack) and paralyze are currently doing anything different than what they have in the past.

[kia345]

hi someone pm'd me about this and I don't play GK but fear giving the inflicted player a "debuff radius" where they suffer lowered stats while other players are in that circle would make more sense in relation to being inflicted with fear (encouraging the player to escape (fight or flight??)) and make it not seem like what you'd imagine confusion as anyway nice to know stuff is happening, everything else looks neat esp ghosthit mattering, A+ I guess <3<3

[Iscariot_p2p]

I really like that this is happening too. Thank you Cubical. Just to throw some thing out there. I would love to see it so that the god people pray to has a bigger effect on the game. In reality the only big ones are Bile, Ogma and Gov. The rest are not worth while since they have no benefits. If their effects changed the way we PVP then there might be cool to pray to Balor or DianCecht.

Also, I like conq idea of having a spar that had standard stats to everyone has a chance. That would be pretty sweet.

Also, perhaps our class could have some bearing on anything at all lol

[Cubical]

Originally Posted by Conqueror

Removing the knockback could make daggers/fists incredibly vicious again-- so that's interesting for sure.

I can leave it enabled for certain weapons should they become an issue.

I REALLY like the shield block idea. Surely more people would start using their shields if something like this were in place. PvPing would be less "swing your sword randomly" and more tactical and precise like in the Spar Arena. But giving it a % chance makes it so it's not overly-used to the point where someone is just countering every swing. Or maybe that could even be a new stat on some items? (+5% block increase) etc.

Yes, I was also worried about someone retreating into a corner and just laming. There will definitely be a block chance and I'm not sure what I'm going to base it on. I think nico has already approved me doing this.

I don't agree with the proposed "10-15 seconds of pure darkness" for blind. (Assuming you mean the screen is entirely black for 10-15 seconds). So much can happen in that amount of time, at least in a spar event with 20+ people. Mind you, on the overworld it wouldn't be so bad since there's so much space to randomly scramble about until your vision is returned. But for any major spar event-- this would give the dianceht users an incredibly one-sided advantage.

This is exactly why I made this post. I cannot make each attack type balanced by just guessing. I would have made it 15 seconds and then the tears would have started flowing. I'll most likely use the idea Stephen posted below for blind. Right now I feel as if it's not overpowered but extremely annoying in its current state and it does need to be changed.

I always thought it'd be neat if for spar events everyone's Speed, HP, AC/WC and weapon/shield was some sort of default. So literally everyone has a balanced chance (even new players) in the spar events. There would be 0 reason for people to complain anymore about items-- it would be based purely on skill like any old classic server. And then obviously, people would have their gear and stuff for PKing on the overworld.

That is actually kind of how it's currently calculated but to give people who have put effort into leveling an advantage. Damage is based of the victims HP and a percent of your current damage. That's why everyone stands a fighting chance in spars.

Originally Posted by Stephen

I'm just going to focus on this for now - if you focus on too much at once it can become overwhelming.

I know, I also get burnt out easily.

ghost hit is a great idea too.

My plan is making it a hit like when Ksavir warps next to you and you see two of him for a split second.

Regarding blind, perhaps 5-10 seconds of pure darkness would be more appropriate - testing will tell for sure, but even 5 seconds may be too much.

A lot of this will be trial and error and nothing can be completely balanced until all the attack types are complete.

I would like to see Acid do damage like fire, but without the water debuff.

Well the only problem with acid being a damage over time attacktype is there is already fire+poison and stacking acid on top of that could really wreck someone. Maybe I could make it so applying it would remove fire or poision debuffs if they have it?

Regarding drain, you mean the attacker regains HP from the damage drain deals? I like this idea a lot.

That's exactly what I was going for.

Originally Posted by Draenin

There are bound to be some things most players may not agree on, but that's alright.

It's impossible to please everyone but if the majority of players agree then eventually they will adapt.

* Well, hopefully it doesn't get a lot of people to switch off of Bile too. I know Bile already has a ton of benefits, but still.

Bile is the best god and there really shouldn't be a 'best god' they should all have their benefits. Im also not talking about taking away anything from bile but buffing the food depletion so people can go longer without eating so a few may stray away and try another god.

* Any use for shields would definitely be great. People have wanted them to reflect stuff for a few years now, but from a mechanics standpoint, I don't think that's possible without some very complicated coding. So blocking is the next best thing. Are there any plans for what to do about their effect against spells and arrows, though? Will they be handled any differently? (It would be nice to have them totally block arrows, and reduce spell damage.)

Yes, it will have the same functionality that it has in spars except for melee attacks can break the shield block and cause damage.

* In what way? Making them more or less important?

Resistances are currently calculated by one set formula. I want to make them calculated on a per attack type basis so they are balanced. Not only that I do not want to have anyone be completely immune to anything aside from bile being immune to death attacks. I want someone who took the time to get 99 resist to have a noticeable reduction in an effect but not have no downside to sitting there and just taking hits.

* Well, just make sure people aren't allowed to move and cast. Moving should probably interrupt the cast, not allow for both at once.

It would be like casting on WoW. If you start a cast and move before it is done it cancels it.

* A lot of the time, running and healing is done with scrolls rather than wands. Adding a freeze time to wands only punishes casters, and doesn't really address the problem directly. Why not add a cooldown time for healing spells? (That is, you can only heal so many times each minute.)

Restoration scrolls are a plague and without a cooldown they shouldn't even have a place in PvP. I may look into somehow adding a cooldown to anything that heals a player instantly or maybe make them cause a speed debuff or something. I had not thought about scrolls so thank you for bringing that up

* How long of a countdown time are we talking about here? Would this impede the ability to simply leave in the middle of an event spar? (For example, in Bomboria or Hotaru's arena? I know they have lock-out features already that prevent players from re-entering during events.)

It would not be active in event levels.

* The terms 'burst' and 'dot' kind of mean two different things, but nice to see this change. :]

A burst of damage over a short period of time.

* I kind of worry that you pair the terms 'large amount of damage' and 'long periods of time,' but I really like the idea of being able to remove burns by soaking in water.

Large amount of damage over a long period of time. By that i mean instead of 10 damage over 10 seconds it would be 15 damage over 20. Those numbers are meaningless but it is an example.

* Again, I think doing something different with fear would be nice. It just too closely resembles confusion in my eyes. (Reversed keys vs. attacking in the wrong direction.) Both deal with messing with player's directional facings, and I'm wondering if this could be made to either make victims actually flee in different directions or cower in place for a short duration. Alternatively, it could also slightly reduce Attack or WC for a limited amount of time. (As kind of the opposite of what acid does.)

For now fear will stay how it is. I can see where you're coming from when you say that it is close to confusion but it is actually an entirely different effect.

* Hopefully this will be based on a low percentage or a fixed number, because the HP return rate, I imagine, will probably depend on how much damage you're doing in the first place. I would recommend no greater than 10 percent, if even that much, because when stronger players are fighting weaker ones they may do more damage and thus return more HP to themselves, giving them an incentive to pick on weaker players for more health.

Preferably it would be based on the victims hp and the cap of the amount able to be leeched would be based on the users physical level.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Cubical

A lot of this will be trial and error and nothing can be completely balanced until all the attack types are complete. Well the only problem with acid being a damage over time attacktype is there is already fire+poison and stacking acid on top of that could really wreck someone. Maybe I could make it so applying it would remove fire or poision debuffs if they have it?

It's probably unlikely that a weapon will have poison, fire, and also acid.

[Cubical]

Originally Posted by Stephen

It's probably unlikely that a weapon will have poison, fire, and also acid.

If multiple people were attacking or someone swapped weapons after debuffing someone it would be possible.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Cubical

If multiple people were attacking or someone swapped weapons after debuffing someone it would be possible.

That's just the rules of engagement. I strongly encourage developers not to design a padded room...

[Felix_Xenophobe]

Originally Posted by Stephen

That's just the rules of engagement. I strongly encourage developers not to design a padded room...

It's not a padded room thing it's just proper balancing. If it turns out balanced to apply 3 dots on a target then fine but I'm suspecting if you stack 3 dots on a target that tick with different intervals you're going to end up with some crazy chain stuns.

[DripZ]

I disagree about adding a shield block, though obviously there's a reason behind it. A PVP fight already takes ages so allowing someone to block your hit only makes it worse, spar is completely different and unbalanced AC doesn't matter in real PVP but in spar heck it makes a difference im 5 ac and i get hit for an 85 in spar with a sword, and 114 with bow personally i think you should balance that more. Anyway the shield blocking I disagree I definitely don't wanna fight someone for an hour.

I also hear some Gods will be changed if possible make it a day where you won't lose exp if perhaps people wanted to switch, I don't want to re-level my stats again.

[Cubical]

Danicides feedback provided via PM. He was able to write this wall of text but not able to spend 30 seconds registering on the forums. Just wanted to post this here since he took a fair amount of time writing it.

1. I personally feel like heavy weapons or 2 handed weapons should retain Knockback, and a property such as "heavy weapon" added to them. Or have it as an % chance to knockback for "heavy weapon".

2. If a shield has a 20% 20% and 50% chance to do something, what does the remaining 10% do?

3. Resistances AC WC and HP calculation are the most important factors to this game having thriving combat/pvp to me. It ultimately effects everyones survivability whether they sacrifice being strong for being survivable. EHP vs DPS etc. etc.

4.The "combat countdown timer" I feel would be a cool concept, if everyone could see it. Along the lines of "Ultima Online"'s criminal system, where you would be flagged as a criminal for xxx time.

Attack Types
* Poison - No stat reduction but applies a burst DoT
// Spot on
* Fire - Long DoT that does a large amount of damage but spread out of a long period of time so it will not be as noticeable. - Getting in water will remove the debuff
// Spot on, however getting in water, and having a water spell cast on you should both work. This allows a team mate to support you in larger fights while attacking offensively.
* Fear - Reverses Keys
// Fear should cause the character to run uncontrollably in random directions. We have a property for reversed keys already, being confusion. Which instead of reversing them it should be a randomized function. ULDR ULRD UDLR etc.
* Ghosthit - Chance of a second hit
// This should be chance to hit through AC/Armor/Resistances. True damage. Ghost's aren't known for being fast they are known for ethereal qualities.
* Slow - Captain Obvious
// Spot on
* Cold - Reduce attack speed
// Spot on
* Blind - Reduce the dreaded minute blind to about 10-15 seconds of pure darkness
// Instead of darkness, I feel actually applying a "fogged glass" bathroom window effect would be much better, possibly with 1/2/3 varying levels of blind (which cumulate on hit)
* Acid - Lowers AC for a short amount of time
// Spot on.
* Drain - Leeches life
// I feel this should be an on-hit damage to SP/Grace, however life leech ontop is still on topic so spot on.


There's my feedback for you.

[Conqueror]

I like the idea of acid having AC reduction-- since that in-turn increases the damage of each attack (I think it was roughly 1 dmg per 5AC when I tested it with StormY).

What I want to know is-- do/will the dots from poison&fire do more damage with lower AC? Because I think that could be disastrous xd.

I was also thinking, what if the little resistance icons in the menu displayed above a characters head when they're infected with poison/fire etc? Sometimes it's hard to know what's happened when there's a wave of text in the bottom right-hand corner.

I realize the beloved B-Mode icon might interfere/start to look messy with all those icons. So maybe changing the color of a players text to identify their stance instead?

Red Text = B-Mode, Enemy Kingdom
Blue Text = B-Mode, but Neutral with your kingdom (or kingdomless)
Green Text = B-Mode, Kingdom Member/or allied with your kingdom
Yellow Text = P-Mode, Gold Status
White Text = P-Mode, Trial/Guest Status