New Manager

[Crono]

Rufus and Deo have everything that is possibly needed to say summed up quite well. I don't know why PWA with such limited playerworld history are appointed to begin with. They may have good administration skills but honestly what is that if you don't know what's actually going on? Classic has been stuck for a long time now, think about it. It's 2009, almost half a decade ago the server was put under the trust of Master Storm. Where has it gone since?

Originally Posted by Bell

Long story short. Storm gets to prove his Storm2.0 is real, Thor is there if he fails. If he doesn't fail then you have more people to voice your opinions to. You have DC to be your louder voice if he feels it will benefit the server.

My advice to all of you? Be careful what you wish for. You may not like the reality of it in the end.

Storm2.0? Bell it's been 4 years. I have nothing against Storm personally but as a manager I think he's had enough chances. Thor? Thor is Classic's backup? If our wishes causes Classic to be taken down then so be it, I don't know about you guys but apart from the few awesome events this server has UN offers the same and more.

Originally Posted by Bell

Opinion noted and filed. Thank you for your input

Promise me you'll stick it on the fridge.

[Rufus]

I just don't understand how this 'resolution' was even suggested. The Playerworld Administration clearly collected minimal research and ignored all player concerns that were made. I mean, I never once saw a PWA on player actually playing the server, nor did I see them associate with the players. That alone would have given them a better picture and understanding, but they've apparently been on RC and reading threads in private forums with the staff that have caused a lot of the problems on the server. Talking about Pokemon Cards or flirting with the 13 year old Shannon is certainly not doing research, and I'm starting to think that the cozying up to staff has blinded the actual reality of the server. Where was the investigations? Where was PWA on accounts that staff didn't know actually assessing what goes on? Where was the actual review here?

[Kill]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Talking about Pokemon Cards or flirting with the 13 year old Shannon is certainly not doing research

Hilarious yet such a valid point indeed.

To be perfectly clear; I don't really understand how 3 admins who haven't played the server in the last 5 years (or more) can just come along and conclude such a vital decision that could've removed it from stagnation; without knowing everything or every aspect of the server.
Of course if you converse with people on RC or look at private forums they will show you all the positive changes they've made.
Never the true or the reality of things.

Just because someone is active and making any content regardless of quality or not the direction that Classic should be heading in; doesn't mean you have to motivate the guy by making him Manager so that he doesn't stop making things.
Thor should've stayed as Dev Admin, he is not a Manager. He is not good with people. How can the PWA not add 1 + 1 to get 2?

As for Storm - he has done virtually NOTHING in the last 5 years, and has been really inactive during those years. Yet when his position is in doubt, he logs on acting as if he's working by bsing the players with fancy words in a polite manner - and all of a sudden PWA are assured that he is now Storm 2.0.

There's just one word to describe all of this: Absurd.

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by Kill

To be perfectly clear; I don't really understand how 3 admins who haven't played the server in the last 5 years (or more) can just come along and conclude such a vital decision that could've removed it from stagnation; without knowing everything or every aspect of the server.
Of course if you converse with people on RC or look at private forums they will show you all the positive changes they've made.
Never the true or the reality of things.

That's the thing, they didn't even converse with those involved. DC heard from Tig once on day one of the review. I heard from nobody. Bell even slipped my name on the list of potential Managers but we see how far that went. How can they change Managers without speaking to the Admins that directly have to work with that Manager? Let alone consider all options.

The funny thing is Tig said they talked to everyone involved, then when I said "No, no you didn't." he came on RC to apologize and ask my opinion, AFTER. THE. FACT. then said my opinion was just that, opinion. Very insulting.

He even said he was under the impression somebody had spoken with me. This is the second bit of miscommunication among the PWA during the review I was talking about. Ignore the fact they don't even play the server, they can't even talk amongst themselves properly.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

Between the 3 PWA members, we've had Tig log onto RC and pick fights with Stryker, we've had Tig come on here and pick a fight with Rufus, who isnt even an admin or staff member here, a player. we have TSAdmin doing that with Kill now, albiet in a more professional attempt.

I just woke up and read that and laughed. Man that was fun. Shades of old Stryker. If I still had a disconnect option it wouldn't have went as far as it did though. I liked the part where Tig tried to use my near 10 years of staff experience against me then invited me to apply for PWA and show them how it's done. Good times.

I will say that it's really cute that the PWA found a way to unite the Classic playerbase. May not be the way they wanted it but it's still funny.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Talking about Pokemon Cards or flirting with the 13 year old Shannon is certainly not doing research, and I'm starting to think that the cozying up to staff has blinded the actual reality of the server. Where was the investigations? Where was PWA on accounts that staff didn't know actually assessing what goes on? Where was the actual review here?

I don't really see how that's any of your business considering you're not a part of the staff team.

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

No, no you didn't.

I know I didn't get your opinion, and I'm very sorry. I already apologized to you on RC but you apparently didn't accept my apology and are being very immature about this situation. Bell said positive things about you, I don't understand what she is talking about, and to be honest I have probably lost respect for Bell in the whole situation due to her suggesting anything positive after I've seen the way you behave.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

Yeah you really didn't talk to me much either, Tig.
In fact I remember you ignoring me quite a bit after the first day of the review.

I never ignored you. You're just adding in fluff to make your story sound good so you can contribute to the drama and feel like part of the team. Have fun.

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

Basicly what I said to Tig when he came to pick a fight with me on RC. When Mystic and I can agree completely on something you know something is up.

I didn't "pick a fight" with you. I logged on, I civilly apologized and you told me to "get the **** out of here," and continued to say how "insulting" I'm being for apologizing.

Originally Posted by Rufus

To be fair, TSAdmin and Skyld both agreed on wanting Storm to keep his position. It was Tig who forced this Thor idea into it and now I understand why he got so upset and singled out my post.

Yes, I am the one who added the idea of making Thor manager. I figured it would be better and give Classic a better chance at some progress than just leaving everything alone, as proposed.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

Alright, time for me to speak up, now that I've been able to get some sleep.
While I'm going to remain neutral about this new Thorm management specifically,
I am not going to remain neutral of the PWA awful handling of the aftermath this has created.

I'm not here to be your punching bag. I don't know what you're talking about specifically, either. Aftermath is being created by you guys, not us.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

Yeah, you made your final decision, guess what? It wasn't the change the people wanted here. I'm not speaking for myself either, obviously with such a negative poll number about the decision(Current results to has the PWA made the correct decision is 5 Yes to 21 No) and this much outcry from it on the forums and in game. While I agree the PWA should have to defend their judgement and explain to the masses on why they came to such a decision, while answering their specific quieries in such a polite manner, that is not what is happening at all.

So what if it isn't what the players wanted to hear? Why should we base our decision solely off of what players want when we're the administrators who have deep rooted management experience? We took the player's opinions into account when making a decision, but you, as a developer, should know by now that listening to the players on every single decision is simply a bad move.

Players should be involved in decisions for:

• Content Updates
• Events
• Reviews of the server

As far as I'm concerned the players should hardly be involved in changes of the staff team. They're not part of the staff team, so they really don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

The general theme coming from various PWA members at any time is to tell the people to 'quit whining'(that was how TSA STARTED OFF). Quit trying to fight with these players that don't agree with you, pick them apart and argue with them. I'm not talking about one specific instance either.

I'm not going to deny anything here, you're absolutely correct, and you can refer to my statement above. We're not here to be your personal punching bag, we made the decision, you can complain all you want but it's not going to change anything, sorry, that's the reality of it.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

Between the 3 PWA members, we've had Tig log onto RC and pick fights with Stryker, we've had Tig come on here and pick a fight with Rufus, who isnt even an admin or staff member here, a player. we have TSAdmin doing that with Kill now, albiet in a more professional attempt.

I really hate people who stretch the truth. I didn't log on RC and "pick fights" with anyone, and I'm certainly not fighting with Rufus. I'd just like to thank you for helping me prove my point, considering TSAdmin isn't fighting with anyone. Apparently you consider arguing a point to be fighting, well it's not.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

The general reaction of the PWA to the player outcry of the decision that they made has been negative and hostile. I can see the reasoning behind their outcry, the decision arrived to, has been that nearly opposite the views of the players in general, it certainly is of this 20+ page thread we're in now.

I don't honestly have anything to say about this, I feel like everyone is just saying the same thing over and over again. Broken record.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

One of the biggest issues on classic is the low player and staff morale about the server in general. This has been a big thing I have been dedicating myself to fix as much as I can. The PWA right now is completely throwing all of the players morale into the toilet. The decision was going to generate hostility, DEAL WITH IT. Act like global administrators for christ's sake. This isn't some damn flame war, this is GLOBAL STAFF interacting with PLAYERS but it sure as hell isn't how its coming off. If this is how you guys are going to react and interact with the players, please, go away, far far away from Classic, I don't need the player and staff morale going down FURTHER because you guys can't take a little heat without getting butthurt.

As I liked to tell Ocelot on Era, "I don't take heat, I extinguish it." You can blame the PWA for all of your problems if you want, I don't care, but not taking responsibility for your own problems is just sad. We reviewed your server as a result of you. We gave you our honest decision based on what we had observed. We came there because you guys asked us to come there, so I really don't see how we're the ones responsible for this happening.

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

That's the thing, they didn't even converse with those involved. DC heard from Tig once on day one of the review. I heard from nobody. Bell even slipped my name on the list of potential Managers but we see how far that went. How can they change Managers without speaking to the Admins that directly have to work with that Manager? Let alone consider all options.

I see you're still dragging this out and beating a dead horse. I've apologized countless times, there's nothing else I can say to you now.

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

The funny thing is Tig said they talked to everyone involved, then when I said "No, no you didn't." he came on RC to apologize and ask my opinion, AFTER. THE. FACT. then said my opinion was just that, opinion. Very insulting.

You're right, that is an absolute riot. I don't see how apologizing for missing you in the review and then asking your opinion is "very insulting." I guess back here on Earth things work a bit differently though.

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

He even said he was under the impression somebody had spoken with me. This is the second bit of miscommunication among the PWA during the review I was talking about. Ignore the fact they don't even play the server, they can't even talk amongst themselves properly.

Yes, I'm human, I make mistakes. Oops!!! Get over it already.

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I don't really see how that's any of your business considering you're not a part of the staff team.

He plays the server you just did a bogus review of, of course it's his business.

I know I didn't get your opinion, and I'm very sorry. I already apologized to you on RC but you apparently didn't accept my apology and are being very immature about this situation. Bell said positive things about you, I don't understand what she is talking about, and to be honest I have probably lost respect for Bell in the whole situation due to her suggesting anything positive after I've seen the way you behave.

I didn't "pick a fight" with you. I logged on, I civilly apologized and you told me to "get the **** out of here," and continued to say how "insulting" I'm being for apologizing.

You logged on and asked my opinion knowing fully well it wouldn't matter. You already made it clear it didn't matter by doing the review without it, but to even ask after the fact? That's insulting. And you weren't trying to pick a fight?

"Tig: So in the 10 years you've worked here, you're telling me you don't know any of the staff well enough to make an informed decision on who should be manager?"

What kind of comment is this? To try and use my experience against me. It wasn't just me and DC who saw you trying to pick a fight. You may not think you were, but you were.

I'd also like to point out two people have echoed my "get the **** out of here" comment in this very post. Just because I was the first one to say it directly to you doesn't make it misplaced.

As far as I'm concerned the players should hardly be involved in changes of the staff team. They're not part of the staff team, so they really don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

Either you worded this very poorly or you just slapped every player in the face. I want to believe you're saying that they shouldn't have a swaying decision on the matter, but players should be heard and involved.

I don't honestly have anything to say about this, I feel like everyone is just saying the same thing over and over again. Broken record.

So if you're hearing it over and over from everyone, does that not say something to you?

Yes, I'm human, I make mistakes. Oops!!! Get over it already.

This isn't the only mistake the PWA made during the review. One I can look passed.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I don't really see how that's any of your business considering you're not a part of the staff team.

If a member of the staff team had posted it, would you have answered it? That can be arranged.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Bell said positive things about you, I don't understand what she is talking about, and to be honest I have probably lost respect for Bell in the whole situation due to her suggesting anything positive after I've seen the way you behave.

Bell has no control over how Stryker acts and if she has had good experience with him over a long period of time, who the hell are you to say **** about her judgment?

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Yes, I am the one who added the idea of making Thor manager. I figured it would be better and give Classic a better chance at some progress than just leaving everything alone, as proposed.

How would it?

Originally Posted by Tigairius

So what if it isn't what the players wanted to hear? Why should we base our decision solely off of what players want when we're the administrators who have deep rooted management experience? We took the player's opinions into account when making a decision, but you, as a developer, should know by now that listening to the players on every single decision is simply a bad move.

Players should be involved in decisions for:

• Content Updates
• Events
• Reviews of the server

As far as I'm concerned the players should hardly be involved in changes of the staff team. They're not part of the staff team, so they really don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

What you don't seem to get is that Graal is comprised entirely of players. The Playerworld Administration are players, the Classic staff are players, and so are the rest of the people involved. Why do you act like people who aren't holding staff positions are below those that are? Yeah, I can see how the PWA might work hard and do a lot more than inexperienced players do, but the loudest voices in this thread are far from inexperienced. I have worked on Classic in a couple of different staff positions (like everyone else in this thread), I have developed for Classic, and I have been a player on it for god damn years. How does that make my opinion, or anyone else's for that matter, apparently worthless?

I think that most of the people in this thread know more of what goes on behind the scenes on Classic than you do and it's obvious through the decisions, conclusions, and blindly stupid statements you come out with. If Classic was all happy and perfect, maybe players wouldn't need to even get involved in staff drama, but it gets in the way of playing and every single decision made on that server should be for the players. Yes their opinion matters, because they're the ones that are constantly picking up the pieces of these bad decisions, not the "deep rooted management experience[d]" team who apparently only make it worse.

[BlackSolider]

People are so fickle. For years they ask for a change of the manager position, or at least a review. So finally, they got a review. The people thus developed an expectation that their dreams would finally come true: storm would be removed and a new, "more capable" manager would be appointed.

Yet their expectations were not met with this decision. Storm wasn't fired even though classic had been mostly stagnant under his rule. The PWAs, apparently, decided that "storm 2.0" can do his job. However, they half-way met the people's request by appointing a second manager, Thor. Cleverly, they covered their rears by giving classic a fall back option of "storm 2.0" turned out to be as idle as the original version.

But, being fickle, the community is, apparently, not satisfied. They wanted storm's blood, or at least for someone they saw as more capable to take his job. Their half-met request might actually be a good thing, though not necessarily the best option.

Then again, we'll never know if another option would have worked out better. There's no reset button on time. There's no "loading the previous saved game". What there is, however, is the future. Now I don't know how long most of us will keep playing graal. It's pretty obvious though, that graal, as a whole, is going downhill. With bigger, better, and far more advanced MMORPGs or w/e on the market, graal will never draw in enough new players to keep the game going for another decade. So, while we still play this (pretty crappy) game, we need to make it as fun as possible. Can our new manager, Thormo, guide us in that direction? Well there's only one way to find out. And it's not sitting on our asses and *****ing at the PWAs + bell via forums/pms. It's playing the game we've (for whatever reason) played for so long, and by helping in whatever way we can.

So, good people of classic, sit down, shut up, and do what you got to do. If you're going to stop playing graal because of this, then you really have wasted the past couple years of your life. This decision is not a great reason to just stop playing. I'd go into details of reasons why we should have stopped playing graal years ago, but I can bet most of you are educated enough to know what those are.

Thus each of you is left with two options:
1) stop playing graal altogether, or move to another server just b/c your fragile feelings were hurt
OR
2) keep playing the game you've played for years, because change is coming

Now I won't sit here and pretend to know exactly what the future holds or what the future could have been. The time for speculation and theories is over. It is time for action. Storm 2.0 and Thor have been given a chance to improve the server. We need to help them along, even if it isn't exactly what you wanted.

I'm already on noah's arc, safe from the flood of tears from many of you. Sadly there is no female dinosaur present, but oh well. I'm going to do what I can to help the server, until I decide to move on. I can only hope that most of you decide to do the same.

Wow...I really have got to stop rambling in these posts.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

People are so fickle. For years they ask for a change of the manager position, or at least a review. So finally, they got a review. The people thus developed an expectation that their dreams would finally come true: storm would be removed and a new, "more capable" manager would be appointed.

Yet their expectations were not met with this decision. Storm wasn't fired even though classic had been mostly stagnant under his rule. The PWAs, apparently, decided that "storm 2.0" can do his job. However, they half-way met the people's request by appointing a second manager, Thor. Cleverly, they covered their rears by giving classic a fall back option of "storm 2.0" turned out to be as idle as the original version.

But, being fickle, the community is, apparently, not satisfied. They wanted storm's blood, or at least for someone they saw as more capable to take his job. Their half-met request might actually be a good thing, though not necessarily the best option.

Then again, we'll never know if another option would have worked out better. There's no reset button on time. There's no "loading the previous saved game". What there is, however, is the future. Now I don't know how long most of us will keep playing graal. It's pretty obvious though, that graal, as a whole, is going downhill. With bigger, better, and far more advanced MMORPGs or w/e on the market, graal will never draw in enough new players to keep the game going for another decade. So, while we still play this (pretty crappy) game, we need to make it as fun as possible. Can our new manager, Thormo, guide us in that direction? Well there's only one way to find out. And it's not sitting on our asses and *****ing at the PWAs + bell via forums/pms. It's playing the game we've (for whatever reason) played for so long, and by helping in whatever way we can.

So, good people of classic, sit down, shut up, and do what you got to do. If you're going to stop playing graal because of this, then you really have wasted the past couple years of your life. This decision is not a great reason to just stop playing. I'd go into details of reasons why we should have stopped playing graal years ago, but I can bet most of you are educated enough to know what those are.

Thus each of you is left with two options:
1) stop playing graal altogether, or move to another server just b/c your fragile feelings were hurt
OR
2) keep playing the game you've played for years, because change is coming

Now I won't sit here and pretend to know exactly what the future holds or what the future could have been. The time for speculation and theories is over. It is time for action. Storm 2.0 and Thor have been given a chance to improve the server. We need to help them along, even if it isn't exactly what you wanted.

I'm already on noah's arc, safe from the flood of tears from many of you. Sadly there is no female dinosaur present, but oh well. I'm going to do what I can to help the server, until I decide to move on. I can only hope that most of you decide to do the same.

Wow...I really have got to stop rambling in these posts.

"Instead of peeing on the side of the wall, you get to use this bucket now. Why aren't you ever satisfied?"

[BlackSolider]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

"Instead of peeing on the side of the wall, you get to use this bucket now. Why aren't you ever satisfied?"

It amazes me how people find a way to sum things up in a sentence that I take paragraphs to say. It's a curse, I guess.

[maximus_asinus]

I could drown in all the tears coming from this thread.

You asked for a review. The PWA made a decision. You're all unhappy with the outcome because the people you've been brown nosing didn't get the job, and Storm didn't get the old heave-ho.

Now that the PWA has made the 'wrong decision', you're bringing up issues that you probably should have addressed before the PWA had completed the review. You're all "butthurt" (to quote Rufus). Just because the PWA decision didn't agree with you, doesn't mean it is wrong. Get over yourselves.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

You asked for a review. The PWA made a decision. You're all unhappy with the outcome because the people you've been brown nosing didn't get the job, and Storm didn't get the old heave-ho.

How many people who are unhappy with this decision were gunning for management? Two out of eighteen?

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

Now that the PWA has made the 'wrong decision', you're bringing up issues that you probably should have addressed before the PWA had completed the review. You're all "butthurt" (to quote Rufus). Just because the PWA decision didn't agree with you, doesn't mean it is wrong. Get over yourselves.

You mean I'm bringing up issues. I didn't really get involved with the review process, nor did I give a supporting opinion for anyone. I figured that the Playerworld Administration would actually do their jobs and give an appropriate review of the server, and actually put some effort in when doing so. They didn't do that, and had I known that they didn't do it I would have brought it up before now. I don't think anyone at all had expected this as an outcome to even need to go into the issues attached to it.

Originally Posted by Bell

I'm sorry if this is not the outcome you wanted to see. I'm not at all convinced though that any outcome would of been acceptable. I can't make promises of change as I will only promise what I personally can change through my own efforts but I will not abandon the effort to improve Classic as some of you seem to think.

I'm pretty concerned about your idea of the reality of the situation, and your view of what is acceptable in Classic's growth. There are many factors running against Classic, but I can see any form of development they make on the server being received by people like yourself as "progress" while Classic slowly loses it's opportunity to thrive. Classic has potential, but not with these two running it.

[BlackSolider]

I concur with the above post. Oddly enough I seemingly said similar things, but in a more rambling fashion. Or at least I think I did.

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

I concur with the above post. Oddly enough I seemingly said similar things, but in a more rambling fashion. Or at least I think I did.

you probably did, I got washed to the last page from all these tears so I may have missed your post.

[BlackSolider]

No one knows what's best for classic because each player has a different vision of what they'd like. However, it is now up to two people to try to mold classic into something acceptable to the majority with the help of the dev team.

[MysticX2X]

I honestly thought Classic was back on a good track when Storm was hyping up his activity.

Obviously the people aren't satisfied with this dual management system. I'm not so sure it will make Classic worse but the Manager to players connection is going to get vastly spread out. Nor do I think 2 managers will even better Classic.

Bad move.

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Obviously the people aren't satisfied with this dual management system. I'm not so sure it will make Classic worse but the Manager to players connection is going to get vastly spread out. Nor do I think 2 managers will even better Classic.

Bad move.

Basicly what I said to Tig when he came to pick a fight with me on RC. When Mystic and I can agree completely on something you know something is up.

[jacob_bald6225]

Ctrl+F : Ziplock
"Cannot find Ziplock"

[Bell]

I'm sorry if this is not the outcome you wanted to see. I'm not at all convinced though that any outcome would of been acceptable. I can't make promises of change as I will only promise what I personally can change through my own efforts but I will not abandon the effort to improve Classic as some of you seem to think.

[Luda]

I think it's ****ing stupid that storm gets by yet again, surprised you let this happen Bell

[StrykerTFFD]

Signs of a Fail Review:

1) Miscommunication among the PWA: Check, not once but twice that we know of.

2) Lack of communication between PWA and Staff on the server: Check.

3) No noticeable observation of the server by PWA: Check.

4) Cop out solution that solves nothing and furthers problems: Check.

5) A solution that leaves the majority angry and the PWA saying "wait and see": Check.

Should I continue? Why did it take so long for you guys to decide to just have two Managers? Clearly you don't want to fire Storm but you don't trust Storm to stay active. What?

What should have been done in terms of how a review should be done was not done. It almost feels as if the PWA's definition of a review is "Wait a week or two then try to give everyone what they want." Bottom line this "second review" was more bogus than the "first review".

[Rufus]

To be fair, TSAdmin and Skyld both agreed on wanting Storm to keep his position. It was Tig who forced this Thor idea into it and now I understand why he got so upset and singled out my post.

[Bell]

Originally Posted by Luda

I think it's ****ing stupid that storm gets by yet again, surprised you let this happen Bell

If I remember correctly, I was under the distinct impression that my involvement would not be acceptable since I may be biased toward the current management staff. That's exactly why this second review was done.

I asked a few questions in the private forums but stayed out of the discussion other than that. When the review was over, I posted the results, so I don't see how let or didn't let anything happen.

[Terazel Tenjin]

What's the better option here for the dissatisfied populace? Suck it up and work with Storm and hope for the best outcome, or start work on their own server and bring all of their wants and ideas to life with the Classic talent pool that don't want to accept the Storm option?

It's painfully obvious to see that people aren't happy with the decision, but it went through official investigation and review. Not commenting on the validity of the reviews, just pointing out that it's the official word.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Terazel Tenjin

or start work on their own server and bring all of their wants and ideas to life with the Classic talent pool that don't want to accept the Storm option

That's an interesting idea, but I'm curious as to whether or not essentially stealing all of Classic's old (and obviously some of which is still used) content would be allowed.

[Terazel Tenjin]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

That's an interesting idea, but I'm curious as to whether or not essentially stealing all of Classic's old (and obviously some of which is still used) content would be allowed.

I don't imagine it'd be too hard to put a new spin on old (and ultimately unused) content from Back in the Golden Days, and then build on top of that with what people of this Classic's generation want to see/have. But that is a fantastic question though, one that maybe the PWA will answer since they're on the horn in this thread (as to which level of "borrowing" or "mimicing" old/unused content from Original Classic is allowed). I wasn't really suggesting the idea of literally making old Classic on a new server.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Terazel Tenjin

I wasn't really suggesting the idea of literally making old Classic on a new server.

Maybe you weren't, but I sure am.

Although I guess it doesn't matter anyway, since you (I think) need a gold account to even do things on a private playerworld. That's certainly not happening for me.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

Maybe you weren't, but I sure am.

Although I guess it doesn't matter anyway, since you (I think) need a gold account to even do things on a private playerworld. That's certainly not happening for me.

Storm said old levels could be converted freely but I'm sure he'd magic them back to Classic somehow.

[Unpredlctable]

ziplock for manager tbh

[TSAdmin]

Stop whining and make the best of a situation that you've been given. Like it or lump it, you asked for a review pending action, and you got it. While I admit to not being completely thrilled about the suggestion of Thor being a manager, I was not opposed to letting it play out since if you want my honest original standing: I said

"Let Storm do his job and weed out the dead weight of those who would in turn refuse to work for him should this be the outcome."

This is backup, rather than screwing someone over completely or throwing the "We're not going to do anything at all" ball at you. Storm is not incapable of fulfilling his duties, though he may need support where possible. Thor is a seriously large, important part of that support.

Earlier today, Rufus spoke to me via PM about how dissatisfied he was with the decision, but the bottom line is and always will be exactly how I responded:

Originally Posted by TSAdmin

[...]and if another manager were chosen that you supported, I'd be having this conversation with someone else. Not everyone was going to be happy with ANY decision. Realise that.

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by TSAdmin

This is backup, rather than screwing someone over completely or throwing the "We're not going to do anything at all" ball at you. Storm is not incapable of fulfilling his duties, though he may need support where possible. Thor is a seriously large, important part of that support.

If support were the case you would've made him Asst. Manager instead of giving him equal say to Storm. Thor has final say, but so does Storm. That shouldn't be the way it is.

Don't downplay what this really is. It's insulting.

[TSAdmin]

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

If support were the case you would've made him Asst. Manager instead of giving him equal say to Storm. Thor has final say, but so does Storm. That shouldn't be the way it is.

Don't downplay what this really is. It's insulting.

I'm not downplaying anything. I agree that one should be able to override the other, but that doesn't mean the view is shared by everyone. I am not ashamed to even share my final post on the topic in the Global Forum:

Originally Posted by TSAdmin

Any decision that involves his movement or removal from the Managers position is going to attract fits, but I do see where ______ [omitted to avoid targeted finger pointing] is coming from. He stays there = fit's, too. I, too, am not entirely thrilled about demoting Storm, but he'd have to understand that it's not a removal from the overall ManageMENT. They have their differences, but I don't see it getting TOO out of hand if Thor were to join Storm in this form, and I doubt Thor would be heartless enough to exercise his immediate right to remove Storm and appoint another Co-Manager.

I think what we have to keep in mind is that there is going to be fits no matter what we decide, but the level of fit differs from choice to choice. Storm fits, or another 4 years of fits because we did nothing? At least he's not losing total control, and if he can handle that, great.

I'm okay with the suggestion, not thrilled, but I can see it's benefits.

It doesn't bother me that the posts following mine lead to the others discussing a direct "joint manager" position rather than a Manager/Co-Manager duo leading to that becoming the official announcement, though.

Originally Posted by Kill

To be perfectly clear; I don't really understand how 3 admins who haven't played the server in the last 5 years (or more) can just come along and conclude such a vital decision that could've removed it from stagnation;

We were called in by you, yourselves. Not all of you, I'm not even pointing you out, either, Kill. But the PWA didn't just walk in unannounced or uninvited.

[DutchGuy]

Originally Posted by TSAdmin

I'm not downplaying anything. I agree that one should be able to override the other, but that doesn't mean the view is shared by everyone. I am not ashamed to even share my final post on the topic in the Global Forum:



It doesn't bother me that the posts following mine lead to the others discussing a direct "joint manager" position rather than a Manager/Co-Manager duo leading to that becoming the official announcement, though.




We were called in by you, yourselves. Not all of you, I'm not even pointing you out, either, Kill. But the PWA didn't just walk in unannounced or uninvited.

Kill is saying that you should stick to your gas producing bullet flying noob era server and leave us the heck alone

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by DutchGuy

Kill is saying that you should stick to your gas producing bullet flying noob era server and leave us the heck alone

Do you honestly think saying this is productive? ...

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by TSAdmin

This is backup, rather than screwing someone over completely or throwing the "We're not going to do anything at all" ball at you. Storm is not incapable of fulfilling his duties, though he may need support where possible. Thor is a seriously large, important part of that support.

Thor is so much support for Storm. I mean, he totally wasn't telling people he was considering holding back releases on content incase they made Storm look good and therefore keep his position. You might not have known this but Bell did.

[Kill]

We were called in by you, yourselves. Not all of you, I'm not even pointing you out, either, Kill. But the PWA didn't just walk in unannounced or uninvited.

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. We wanted you guys to do a full detailed constructed review whereby you looked at ALL the aspects of the server. Based on your decision alone, you have not done this.
Also, you singled out my opening statement of my full paragraph. If you quoted it fully (assuming you read it) you would've understood what I was trying to get at.

TSA you were invited, but the way you and your team approached this was all wrong.
I hope it's not like this in the future, you guys look like a complete and utter joke as of now.

Kill is saying that you should stick to your gas producing bullet flying noob era server and leave us the heck alone

No I am not. I'm just appauled by how his team didn't do the necessary paperwork or research needed to conclude such a decision.

[Kill]

So you don't have a response to what I said?

[DutchGuy]

Originally Posted by Kill

So you don't have a response to what I said?

indeed...he's still regretting his descision.

[TSAdmin]

Originally Posted by Kill

So you don't have a response to what I said?

Sorry, I didn't see it. After I responded to Ramirez, I went to bed.

Originally Posted by Kill

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. We wanted you guys to do a full detailed constructed review whereby you looked at ALL the aspects of the server. Based on your decision alone, you have not done this.
Also, you singled out my opening statement of my full paragraph. If you quoted it fully (assuming you read it) you would've understood what I was trying to get at.

TSA you were invited, but the way you and your team approached this was all wrong.
I hope it's not like this in the future, you guys look like a complete and utter joke as of now.

I could have walked around on Classic with the 2 or 3 people that were on each day over the past couple of weeks until my virtual feet bled, but no amount of walking around on the server was going to get my review input to be swayed by something like
"This tile looks like it's been inactive for 4 years"
but since merely being on the server didn't seem to be productively moving anything along, it was a good thing that the people still had a voice.

The moments in which I was able to get in contact with a tiny mass of people on Classic at one time, all I got were a 3-4 man strong set of "DC Supporters" who only moaned and complained how they wanted DC as Manager, but honestly avoided most of my questions by giving deflective answers, so I knew that DC would never get manager as he were one of the people in the room, as well. You can't hope to reach the top if you deflect everything.

This, in-turn, left only 1 real aspect to fulfil which was to just speak to those who would speak, and Bell summed that up pretty well. When given the chance, I had quite a few people simply say "I'll post it on the forum thread later" who never did, and never showed up again.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

I have no problem with Storm or Thor, but 2 managers shouldn't be the case, on any server. Reasons already stated.

While I have already stated that I see where people are coming from on the Duel Manager thing, and even showed you my opinion on it, they're big boys. I am sure that now they're both mature enough to (if they so decided) discuss between each other if there should be a "Co-Manager" instead of "2 Managers" and further decide which of the two should take up that position. That, in my opinion, is now entirely up to them.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by TSAdmin

I am sure that now they're both mature enough to (if they so decided) discuss between each other if there should be a "Co-Manager" instead of "2 Managers" and further decide which of the two should take up that position.

I personally found this to be very bothersome. You must have only had the most positive of experiences with Storm. To himself, most actions of his are justifiable, and the ones that aren't aren't severe enough to warrant anything negative being done. So no, he's not capable. This is pretty evident by the fact that he hasn't stepped down on his own.

Feel free to point out that this is my opinion of his actions. You'd be right, but what, exactly, DOES it take before it's severe enough without just plain being "corrupt"? There is no clear rule to go by here, it's all based on opinion of severity. Clearly myself and a lot of others think that what has transpired IS enough. The time involved is BEYOND ridiculous.