this needs to be discussed

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I wonder why successful games don't adopt such a foolproof system.

Sandbox games like SL don't cater to individual user 'wants' either. They are focused on their own projects, and leave most of the in-game content up to their players.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Yeah, see, that's the problem. You spend your days waiting for miracles to happen, and it's not their job to do your work for you.

You need to realize that, despite the fact that you pay to play, Graal Staff owes you nothing. People pay for development space (servers) and to be able to interact with the work of others. That, if you ask me, should be enough. Updates will come when they can. The best anyone can do is make good use of what they've got.

i've stated several times that i am not a developer. i, personally, cannot develop. i can't do it. i don't know how many times i need to say this: I AM NOT A DEVELOPER i am a player. i play graal for it's video game aspect, not it's developing platform

that said, how do you expect graal staff to owe us nothing? the game is in our hands, and the game is dying. when the game was in the hands of the creator, it flourished. people can pay all they want for server support and use of graal's game engine, and yes updates will eventually come. but the updates are not what we want. the servers being made are pathetic compared to what has been made in the past - and they were made with less up-to-date material no less! you're saying it's fine if the owners of their game let it die, and i agree. but if it's in our hands to do something, and we do nothing, then we are no better than the owners

i made this thread because i know that we are on our own. it's been this way for awhile, and it's about time we started acting like it. we need to organize, we need to prepare, and we need to take action. don't say that people like myself, who are trying to get people who CAN do something to get into action, are the "cancer killing graal" because i'm currently doing more to "save graal" than you are - a developer! stop spouting your self-righteous bull**** and "take a step back for a moment" pessimism. if it's up to us, then lets get something done (and i mean that in the most friendly-smiling optimistic way i possibly can, because if nothing happens then ****s done, we might as well stop posting altogether)

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Hiro

but if it's in our hands to do something, and we do nothing, then we are no better than the owners

Precisely.

Originally Posted by Hiro

stop spouting your self-righteous bull**** and "take a step back for a moment" pessimism. if it's up to us, then lets get something done

Who ever said I was being pessimistic? I'm right there with ya on this sentiment. I think more users need to start kicking ass and taking names.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Who ever said I was being pessimistic? I'm right there with ya on this sentiment. I think more users need to start kicking ass and taking names.

it's how i perceived it - sorry for the misunderstanding

now, as a developer, would you be willing to work on a project with the goal of bringing in new players? would you be willing to ask everyone and anyone you know who can help out with the project? non-developers can't lead a development charade, and all it takes is one person with the time and motivation to start making it happen

if not you, then who?

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Hiro

it's how i perceived it - sorry for the misunderstanding

now, as a developer, would you be willing to work on a project with the goal of bringing in new players? would you be willing to ask everyone and anyone you know who can help out with the project? non-developers can't lead a development charade, and all it takes is one person with the time and motivation to start making it happen

if not you, then who?

Well, it's not just something that -you- or -I- need to do. The community itself needs a better attitude altogether about bringing in new players and not just turning them away. Instead of saying, "Yeah, all these servers suck," players and developers should give newbies (and even oldbies) more reasons to stick around.

And by the way, here's that particle editor I was talking about. Players are -very- capable of making their own tools. The problem is, even when they're made, a lot of people don't bother to share them:

[Stephen]

What I've previously suggested is a that a group of interested parties within the community form a sub-community whose interest & purpose is the betterment of Graal Online... in preparation for advertising...

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Well, it's not just something that -you- or -I- need to do. The community itself needs a better attitude altogether about bringing in new players and not just turning them away. Instead of saying, "Yeah, all these servers suck," players and developers should give newbies (and even oldbies) more reasons to stick around.

And by the way, here's that particle editor I was talking about. Players are -very- capable of making their own tools. The problem is, even when they're made, a lot of people don't bother to share them:

i didn't say that we should stand alone. i meant someone has to take the initiative and start the social proof. also, that's a pretty awesome tool you've made there, looks very useful since you can skip the scripting and get into the functionality

Originally Posted by Stephen

What I've previously suggested is a that a group of interested parties within the community form a sub-community whose interest & purpose is the betterment of Graal Online... in preparation for advertising...

i think we should formulate this immediately, it's a great idea. i'm in if others are

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Hiro

i didn't say that we should stand alone. i meant someone has to take the initiative and start the social proof. also, that's a pretty awesome tool you've made there, looks very useful since you can skip the scripting and get into the functionality

Credit goes to Mallard, not me. If users made tools as useful as this, things would get done much quicker.

The code itself is shared, but few people have taken a look at it, and they really should.

[Switch]

Originally Posted by Hiro

the very lack of seriousness by certain members of the forum also adds to this problem. it discredits the rest of us who can take it seriously, since then the "thread is ruined"

If you're talking about my revolt idea, I am completely serious.

Originally Posted by Draenin

You need to realize that that the higher-ups have left it mostly in our hands. They can't swoop down and make miracles every day for every server.

No one wants them to make a miracle, we want them to do something to better THEIR game. I'm pretty sure we can say the players have done a lot more work than the higher-ups have, and quite fed up with having to do every bit (besides a few ****ty client updates) of work for them.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Switch

If you're talking about my revolt idea, I am completely serious.


No one wants them to make a miracle, we want them to do something to better THEIR game. I'm pretty sure we can say the players have done a lot more work than the higher-ups have, and quite fed up with having to do every bit (besides a few ****ty client updates) of work for them.

i wasn't referring to you, but in all honesty a revolt of that kind is unrealistic. again - how do we get other people to join in?

and technically, the owners actually created the game and then warped it to work with the torque engine. that is a big feat, but in terms of actual content i will completely agree with you

[Switch]

and technically, the owners actually created the game and then warped it to work with the torque engine. that is a big feat, but in terms of actual content i will completely agree with you

That has to do with client updates, and some server updates I guess, which are still mediocre compared to some of the stuff we make.

[zim5354]

Graals problem is no one wants to pay for a 2d game that looks like it belongs on SNES. It's 2009 and no one is going to pay what Stefan/Unix is asking for a 2d sprite based game. And no one is definitely going to use this subscription based service they have.

I honestly can only see Graal being saved by banners inserted on trials clients, or an item shop. I mean its all about perceived value, and a 2d game doesn't have the perceived value a 3d one when the only way potential players can judge it is by screen shots and an extremely limited trial service.

Stefan and Unix need to get creative, perhaps rent out globel's assistance to help struggling playerworld for real world cash or so many store bought gelet. But if they cannot get new players into the game its just a matter of time till the existing ones lose interest and the final nail is put in this games coffin.

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by zim5354

Graals problem is no one wants to pay for a 2d game that looks like it belongs on SNES. It's 2009 and no one is going to pay what Stefan/Unix is asking for a 2d sprite based game. And no one is definitely going to use this subscription based service they have.

I honestly can only see Graal being saved by banners inserted on trials clients, or an item shop. I mean its all about perceived value, and a 2d game doesn't have the perceived value a 3d one when the only way potential players can judge it is by screen shots and an extremely limited trial service.

Stefan and Unix need to get creative, perhaps rent out globel's assistance to help struggling playerworld for real world cash or so many store bought gelet. But if they cannot get new players into the game its just a matter of time till the existing ones lose interest and the final nail is put in this games coffin.

"Players don't want to pay for a 2D online game, but hey, we should have ads plastered all over the client anyway."


Pleez.

[fowlplay4]

I've always been under the impression for a long time now that the men upstairs don't really care about projects other than their own gold servers, and the only time you get their attention is when something goes terribly wrong.

So to have to go to those extremes like that to get attention so action can be taken is sad

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by zim5354

Graals problem is no one wants to pay for a 2d game that looks like it belongs on SNES. It's 2009 and no one is going to pay what Stefan/Unix is asking for a 2d sprite based game. And no one is definitely going to use this subscription based service they have.

I honestly can only see Graal being saved by banners inserted on trials clients, or an item shop. I mean its all about perceived value, and a 2d game doesn't have the perceived value a 3d one when the only way potential players can judge it is by screen shots and an extremely limited trial service.

Stefan and Unix need to get creative, perhaps rent out globel's assistance to help struggling playerworld for real world cash or so many store bought gelet. But if they cannot get new players into the game its just a matter of time till the existing ones lose interest and the final nail is put in this games coffin.

i agree with you that most new people do not like the 2D aspects of the game. however, that doesn't seem to make most people not at least give it a try. graal has more going for it than most other games - a tight historical community, a development platform, and a lot of different types of game play. but these things take time to get noticed, and i do think the cost of graal is ridiculous, and i have always thought that. but we can't do anything about the cost, it's out of our hands

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

I've always been under the impression for a long time now that the men upstairs don't really care about projects other than their own gold servers, and the only time you get their attention is when something goes terribly wrong.

So to have to go to those extremes like that to get attention so action can be taken is sad

i've also been under the same impression. they only really talk to the developers or customers who are having a monetary problem. i doubt they give care about any specific server, other than the fact that it might generate a little revenue besides the server hosting costs. at least if it's a gold server, they might be quicker to help their staff out

but again, if we have to go to the extremes, how do we get people to actually go to those extremes?