Gabriel's Economic Plan Part A

[Kappa00p2p]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

If people have stuff to buy, they'll be able to then sell it. For example, a locker costs $50 to buy. But then, supply goes down, demand goes up, and they can turn around and sell it for 5k. The same would happen for new toys, apartments, guns, etc.
There's tons to buy on era, the problem is that the supply drops too much, and people can make a huge profit reselling items. You need some other form to control money. People might not even notice their bank account losing a few bucks every day. What's $10 per day to someone with over 100k in their account, and ads 1k per week?

People would just withdraw everything before they logged off.

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by Kappa00p2p

People would just withdraw everything before they logged off.

Large withdraws have a percentage removed too
Come on, it's not that hard to close that loophole

I bet if you do it you could fix the economy in a month or so.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

Large withdraws have a percentage removed too
Come on, it's not that hard to close that loophole

I bet if you do it you could fix the economy in a month or so.

A percentage fee upon withdrawal would have the exact same effect as taxing, except that it would be much better received by players by allowing them to have a decision in what happens with their money instead of it just constantly disappearing.

[Sinkler]

Hell, we should create a government.
I have so many political ideas, and politics has never really been implemented in Era's Society.
I myself would like to work for the government, reason being, I have a giant interest. The taxes from the citizens would then go to pulic places, perhaps lowering gun prices? Lowering Housing costs?

[DustyPorViva]

Yay corrupt politics.

[DustyPorViva]

Then the problem is supply and demand. That's the problem with Era last time I was on... you couldn't find any guns in the actual shops... thus, you had to buy them from players. That's a huge problem.

Also, like I said, people sell this stuff at insanely high prices because the money is there. They wouldn't be able to sell a locker at 5k if 5k was hard to come by. This is accomplished by having money sinks -- things meant to suck money out of the economy. Lots of stuff for sale. Lots. Houses. Cars. Monthly payments on the expensive stuff. If they're constantly spending their money, they have no way to build it up, thus they won't become incredibly rich, and as a result, people can't sell items at insane prices because no one will have that kind of money.

[TSAdmin]

I remember when one of the Managers (I think it was Andrew, he even had the "Angry Mob" guys hanging around it) threw in a scenario that involved cutting off the city from the suburbs of Southridge by having "terrorists blow up the bridge" as it's base storyline, and in order to get it fixed, a certain amount of money needed to be donated to the "Bridge Foundation" or something in order for it to be fixed, which was just as simple as reuploading a backup of the old, 'pre-destroyed' versions of those levels affected.

Fun things like these could have at minor impact on current player cash totals, especially since the rich people are likely the ones who currently own any houses in Southridge, and don't want to be cut off from their homes. I'm not saying repeat this scenario, but little mini-things like that get players attentions and takes from their pockets.

[Demisis_P2P]

Originally Posted by TSAdmin

I remember when one of the Managers (I think it was Andrew, he even had the "Angry Mob" guys hanging around it) threw in a scenario that involved cutting off the city from the suburbs of Southridge by having "terrorists blow up the bridge" as it's base storyline, and in order to get it fixed, a certain amount of money needed to be donated to the "Bridge Foundation" or something in order for it to be fixed, which was just as simple as reuploading a backup of the old, 'pre-destroyed' versions of those levels affected.

Fun things like these could have at minor impact on current player cash totals, especially since the rich people are likely the ones who currently own any houses in Southridge, and don't want to be cut off from their homes. I'm not saying repeat this scenario, but little mini-things like that get players attentions and takes from their pockets.

That was Morg, Mange and Daisetsu.
It was mostly Morgoth's idea though.
And I think he only did it because he doesn't like Southridge at all.
The idea to charge people 500k before fixing the bridge was Dai's or Mange's.

[Curt1zzle]

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

That was Morg, Mange and Daisetsu.
It was mostly Morgoth's idea though.
And I think he only did it because he doesn't like Southridge at all.
The idea to charge people 500k before fixing the bridge was Dai's or Mange's.

Eh no I think it was Alec, actually. Yea, definitely Alec's gig. He brought me back and gave me my old Era Police Chief tag and I was in charge of the "investigation" or something retarded.

[DustyPorViva]

Dammit, I made a long post and got that ****ing bad request and now the post is gone.

[DustyPorViva]

Here I go again. After being a part of this thread I will sum up what I think will help the economy.

> Less player run shops, at least for weapons. Player run shops mean the money is going to players... that means no money is getting out of the economy. Furthermore, get rid of stocks in store. Stocks in store means limited supplies. Limited supplies mean players can buy out the whole stock and resell at high prices. BIG PROBLEM. That's where inflation comes in. Have infinite stock, that way players don't have to rely on other players for items, meaning no monopolizing. The only rare items should be far and few and won at events or such... not just because a player found a store that had them in stock and bought them all.

> Money sinks. More content = more spending. More spending = less piling up. If players have nothing to buy, the money has nothing to do but pile up. It doesn't have to be huge content, or important stuff. Players will buy anything that is possible to buy. Costumes, hats, even stuff just to show off.

> Target rich people. Rich people can afford houses... therefor, adding monthly rent will target them specifically. Add furniture as content with a price. If they want their interior to look nice, they have to pay for it. This will mean they have a constant place to put their money to use.

> Fee their withdrawals. 5[percent] of withdrawals as a fee will encourage players to perhaps hold their money. This means larger drops, which means money being spread around. On the otherhand, if they choose to use the ATM regardless, large amounts will be hit hard, meaning large sums disappearing -- this is good. It balances itself out.

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Here I go again. After being a part of this thread I will sum up what I think will help the economy.

> Less player run shops, at least for weapons. Player run shops mean the money is going to players... that means no money is getting out of the economy. Furthermore, get rid of stocks in store. Stocks in store means limited supplies. Limited supplies mean players can buy out the whole stock and resell at high prices. BIG PROBLEM. That's where inflation comes in. Have infinite stock, that way players don't have to rely on other players for items, meaning no monopolizing. The only rare items should be far and few and won at events or such... not just because a player found a store that had them in stock and bought them all.

> Money sinks. More content = more spending. More spending = less piling up. If players have nothing to buy, the money has nothing to do but pile up. It doesn't have to be huge content, or important stuff. Players will buy anything that is possible to buy. Costumes, hats, even stuff just to show off.

> Target rich people. Rich people can afford houses... therefor, adding monthly rent will target them specifically. Add furniture as content with a price. If they want their interior to look nice, they have to pay for it. This will mean they have a constant place to put their money to use.

> Fee their withdrawals. 5[percent] of withdrawals as a fee will encourage players to perhaps hold their money. This means larger drops, which means money being spread around. On the otherhand, if they choose to use the ATM regardless, large amounts will be hit hard, meaning large sums disappearing -- this is good. It balances itself out.

I could agree with this, but I really do think people will try to beat the system with the atm. Unless all amounts have a 5º/o fee.

[Curt1zzle]

i'll take the job guys

[DustyPorViva]

All amounts will have a 5% fee. Amounts $10 or less will have a set $1 fee, to avoid abusing rounding up.

This way, even if they do $50 at a time to withdraw $5000, they're still going to lose 5[percent].

lol, I see you had to work around the percentage sign :P

[Sinkler]

Why not make player-run businesses have difficulties, needing more lead/iron and other stuff etc. Possible failure building stuff.

[Sinkler]

But see, if we have all the guns stocked, then people will be able to AFFORD all the guns, and then people will be able to play fair.

Think of it this way, if everyone can get anything, then why would they complain?

[DustyPorViva]

Also, all the playerhouses I've noticed are down in Southridge(?), where no one goes. Put a few houses right smack in the middle of town, with high mortgage rates and such. And perhaps a few cheap apartments for not-so-rich.

[Crono]

They need to try to revive Morano Family but place it down south where it belongs. It was doing great when it was down there, it seperated it from other gangs and fit the whole "rich mafia" theme. If I recall the family was only falling apart when it was moved to the northern beach.

[Baszle]

Crono, why did you have to sacrifice me to satan?

[CharlieM]

How about make something like wealth coins, that players can purchase for a set amount of money, and then use to buy like special things, (that aren't tradeable?) like special varations of guns that dont have stat bonuses but look cool. like a golden handgun or something? to show off a players money basically.

[DustyPorViva]

Oh, and of course, giving every item an ID would help a lot. Logging ANY creation of items. So in case some GP wants to **** up the economy, you can track the items down and delete them. All this stuff is very basic for keeping track of a gaming economy, and should have been done from the beginning.

[Frankie]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Oh, and of course, giving every item an ID would help a lot. Logging ANY creation of items. So in case some GP wants to **** up the economy, you can track the items down and delete them. All this stuff is very basic for keeping track of a gaming economy, and should have been done from the beginning.

it's not as easy as you think. I just tried to give you an example but it just gets way to confusing. basically, items and money are handed through so many people's hands, and I can say this from experience. I've had to reverse over 4 trades before over a simple scam because as soon as the person scammed they went and sold / gave the items to a friend, who then sold / gave it out, who then sold / gave it out, etc. and that was when I was lucky, it can get A LOT more complicated than that, trust me.

it's extremely hard to monitor these things. especially if a staff spawns a large amount of money and trades it to numerous people (like ace did) how are we supposed to reverse all of that?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Frankie

it's not as easy as you think. I just tried to give you an example but it just gets way to confusing. basically, items and money are handed through so many people's hands, and I can say this from experience. I've had to reverse over 4 trades before over a simple scam because as soon as the person scammed they went and sold / gave the items to a friend, who then sold / gave it out, who then sold / gave it out, etc. and that was when I was lucky, it can get A LOT more complicated than that, trust me.

it's extremely hard to monitor these things. especially if a staff spawns a large amount of money and trades it to numerous people (like ace did) how are we supposed to reverse all of that?

Never said it'd be easy, but it's necessary. With the SQLite databases coming out, perhaps you could move your item system over to that database, and that way you'd know who had what item with what ID at all times.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Frankie

it's extremely hard to monitor these things. especially if a staff spawns a large amount of money and trades it to numerous people (like ace did) how are we supposed to reverse all of that?

For staff doing it, you catch it before it's gets handed off to so many people. I'm not sure what scams Era has (is it just unfair trading?), but there's always a way to log things in real-time. Depending on what scams are going on, there are always ways to help prevent it; whether they be scripted or just a guide given to players to teach them how to spot a scam.

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by Frankie

it's not as easy as you think. I just tried to give you an example but it just gets way to confusing. basically, items and money are handed through so many people's hands, and I can say this from experience. I've had to reverse over 4 trades before over a simple scam because as soon as the person scammed they went and sold / gave the items to a friend, who then sold / gave it out, who then sold / gave it out, etc. and that was when I was lucky, it can get A LOT more complicated than that, trust me.

it's extremely hard to monitor these things. especially if a staff spawns a large amount of money and trades it to numerous people (like ace did) how are we supposed to reverse all of that?

Don't you have rc or staff tool logs?You can see who made it, and who they gave it to.
Then just confiscate it, or at least the money they made from selling it. Threaten to man them unless they tell you who they sold it to (if you don't have a log for that too), and delete it.


I honestly think if there were more things to buy, guns had more pros and cons (there aren't one or two that were the best), and you'd take a percentage out of the account on atm withdraws (not out of the amount they're withdrawing), you'd be making steps towards a better economy.

[Demisis_P2P]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

Don't you have rc or staff tool logs?You can see who made it, and who they gave it to.
Then just confiscate it, or at least the money they made from selling it. Threaten to man them unless they tell you who they sold it to (if you don't have a log for that too), and delete it.

It's all logged.
Even things like attempting to modifying a soda machine, so that it gives you some other item instead of soda is logged and alerts RC.
But we can't check the logs until we know what we're looking for, so we need to atleast suspect somebody of spawning things before we can go through and see what they spawned and who they gave it to.

And then it's not as easy as just deleting it.

Scenario:
Person A gets a gun from their staff buddy.
We don't find out for a week, and when we do find out Person A has sold the gun to Person B for 50k.
Now we need to take the 50k from Person A and give it back to Person B so that Person B isn't inconvenienced at all for something that isn't their fault.
But if Person A doesn't have the 50k anymore and spent it on something then we need to find out what they bought and reverse that as well before we can restore things to the way they should be.

And occassionally things are made much harder when USD or cross-server trading is involved, because we can't reverse those.

But staff members spawning things and giving them to players isn't very common at all, and thankfully up until this point nobody has done it on a large enough scale to cause severe economic problems.

[Frankie]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

Don't you have rc or staff tool logs?You can see who made it, and who they gave it to.
Then just confiscate it, or at least the money they made from selling it. Threaten to man them unless they tell you who they sold it to (if you don't have a log for that too), and delete it.


I honestly think if there were more things to buy, guns had more pros and cons (there aren't one or two that were the best), and you'd take a percentage out of the account on atm withdraws (not out of the amount they're withdrawing), you'd be making steps towards a better economy.

but when you're taking items/money away from people that had no idea the items/money was non legit, it's not fair.

[DustyPorViva]

If items are given unique IDs, I have no idea why it would be hard to track it down.

[DarkRenji]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

If items are given unique IDs, I have no idea why it would be hard to track it down.

Well it wouldnt be hard to find.
Just hard to fix it...

Like if someone spawned a Sten then traded it for 500k to someone would you just take the sten and say f*** his 500k?

what if the guy who sold him the sten spent the 500k and it just could go on and on z.z

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by DarkRenji

Well it wouldnt be hard to find.
Just hard to fix it...

Like if someone spawned a Sten then traded it for 500k to someone would you just take the sten and say f*** his 500k?

what if the guy who sold him the sten spent the 500k and it just could go on and on z.z

Usually, you would say tough luck... but people tend to like staff who are generous. So you simply undo the trade until you get back to where it was generated. This shouldn't be a long process if staff catch this stuff fast, like they should.

The reason Era is so screwed up economically right now is because staff ignored it for so long.

[Demisis_P2P]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Usually, you would say tough luck... but people tend to like staff who are generous. So you simply undo the trade until you get back to where it was generated. This shouldn't be a long process if staff catch this stuff fast, like they should.

The reason Era is so screwed up economically right now is because staff ignored it for so long.

Ignored what?

It's screwed up because of duping, primarily.

[DustyPorViva]

Which took how long to fix? I'm pretty sure it was years.

[Demisis_P2P]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Which took how long to fix? I'm pretty sure it was years.

It took about 2 months, I think.

And it was caused by server lag coming from Zodiac, so there wasn't much we could have done besides completely disable all dropping, trading and selling of items.

[DustyPorViva]

2 months is WAY too long for a huge bug like that :/
And you can't say there is no way to fix a bug because of lag. Lag is a part of any online game, and to have a item database system that is abused by lag is not a very good item database.

[Frankie]

we had numerous scripters look at it and none could figure it out. andy came along and found a way. you can't blame us.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Frankie

we had numerous scripters look at it and none could figure it out. andy came along and found a way. you can't blame us.

Yes I can. Ya, it sucks that it couldn't be fixed, but you all are the staff and it's your responsibility.

[Crow]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Yes I can. Ya, it sucks that it couldn't be fixed, but you all are the staff and it's your responsibility.

I tried fixing it twice with almost failsafe ways. At least I thought they were failsafe. And even though i couldn't fix it, some of us did alot to reduce items being duped. Dupers were reset and got some jailtime afterwards, and I asked people if they noticed any horrible lag lately, when exactly it was and then checked the item logs, and sorted out dupers.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Crow

I tried fixing it twice with almost failsafe ways. At least I thought they were failsafe. And even though i couldn't fix it, some of us did alot to reduce items being duped. Dupers were reset and got some jailtime afterwards, and I asked people if they noticed any horrible lag lately, when exactly it was and then checked the item logs, and sorted out dupers.

Ya, I just mean the staff of a server can't say, "you can't blame us" when it's an oversight in their system. Sure, I can't blame you for the lag, but every online game has lag and a system should be built with that in consideration.

I have no doubt the staff worked to fix it, but I can still blame you all for it

[Frankie]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I have no doubt the staff worked to fix it, but I can still blame you all for it

which is just plainly being a douchebag.

[Crono]

2 months, lol...

Wasn't duping a problem every year on Era? I mean, isn't that where glitched money came from to begin with? Hell I'd go back to 2003, when people had somehow "earned" tons of money. Weren't those dupped too?