New Manager

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by TSAdmin

This is backup, rather than screwing someone over completely or throwing the "We're not going to do anything at all" ball at you. Storm is not incapable of fulfilling his duties, though he may need support where possible. Thor is a seriously large, important part of that support.

Thor is so much support for Storm. I mean, he totally wasn't telling people he was considering holding back releases on content incase they made Storm look good and therefore keep his position. You might not have known this but Bell did.

[xnervNATx]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

One of the biggest issues on classic is the low player and staff morale about the server in general. This has been a big thing I have been dedicating myself to fix as much as I can. The PWA right now is completely throwing all of the players morale into the toliet. The decision was going to generate hostility, DEAL WITH IT. Act like global administrators for christ's sake. This isn't some damn flame war, this is GLOBAL STAFF interacting with PLAYERS but it sure as hell isn't how its coming off. If this is how you guys are going to react and interact with the players, please, go away, far far away from Classic, I don't need the player and staff morale going down FURTHER because you guys can't take a little heat without getting butthurt.

i must agree with you. GET the **** away from classic , i do not hate thor , but he should have stick with dev admin . why manager? what thing will he do that will be more benefit to the server? just by having him having MORE power than he had before.

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by Kill

To be perfectly clear; I don't really understand how 3 admins who haven't played the server in the last 5 years (or more) can just come along and conclude such a vital decision that could've removed it from stagnation; without knowing everything or every aspect of the server.
Of course if you converse with people on RC or look at private forums they will show you all the positive changes they've made.
Never the true or the reality of things.

That's the thing, they didn't even converse with those involved. DC heard from Tig once on day one of the review. I heard from nobody. Bell even slipped my name on the list of potential Managers but we see how far that went. How can they change Managers without speaking to the Admins that directly have to work with that Manager? Let alone consider all options.

The funny thing is Tig said they talked to everyone involved, then when I said "No, no you didn't." he came on RC to apologize and ask my opinion, AFTER. THE. FACT. then said my opinion was just that, opinion. Very insulting.

He even said he was under the impression somebody had spoken with me. This is the second bit of miscommunication among the PWA during the review I was talking about. Ignore the fact they don't even play the server, they can't even talk amongst themselves properly.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

Between the 3 PWA members, we've had Tig log onto RC and pick fights with Stryker, we've had Tig come on here and pick a fight with Rufus, who isnt even an admin or staff member here, a player. we have TSAdmin doing that with Kill now, albiet in a more professional attempt.

I just woke up and read that and laughed. Man that was fun. Shades of old Stryker. If I still had a disconnect option it wouldn't have went as far as it did though. I liked the part where Tig tried to use my near 10 years of staff experience against me then invited me to apply for PWA and show them how it's done. Good times.

I will say that it's really cute that the PWA found a way to unite the Classic playerbase. May not be the way they wanted it but it's still funny.

[Remonq]

if by "talking to each of the admins" they mean reading the responses to the questions that we posted in the globals forum then yeah, they "talked" to us. but i never heard from any of them concerning the subject of the matter

[Bell]

There is one thing that bothers me that people seem to be forgetting about. Due to the fact that the PWA and staff of Classic are all on differant time zones. It was suggested by DC that a private forum be set up so that the staff and PWA could talk to each. While a few people thought it was a dumb idea I agreed to it and had Darlene set it up.

Each and every one of you had an opportunity to say whatever you wished, there was no moderation, nothing to say you couldn't speak your mind and put in anything you felt was important. If you chose not to participate then so be it, your decision. A few people chose to contact the PWA outside of the forums with other comments they preferred not to say publicly. Which was alright too. Several of you said "This is all I have to say." Because I felt that it still may of left some questions unanswered, I posed a few questions of my own. Those were also responded to.

Why is it now though that when this is all over, some of you now come back and complain that nobody talked to you. You have your own voice, there was absolutely nothing stopping any of you from adding anything you wanted to say. Instead the PWA gets blamed for not asking you personally?

You didn't like the inititial review, fine. I removed myself from the process and saw to it you got your review under your conditions. Making it very clear that it wouldn't be done a third time if you didn't like the outcome. The PWA team did their review and came to a conclusion which I then posted. It seems like we're back to square one again which is historically the case on Classic.

If I could magically find a way to raise player morale and make Classic the server it was pre npc I would. Graal's playerbase as a whole wouldn't support it at this time and all of you know that. This isn't the fault of the PWA, this isn't a problem limited to Classic alone. Morale will only go so far though. History shows that its also short lived.

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by Bell

Due to the fact that the PWA and staff of Classic are all on differant time zones. It was suggested by DC that a private forum be set up so that the staff and PWA could talk to each.

Because I felt that it still may of left some questions unanswered, I posed a few questions of my own. Those were also responded to.

You didn't like the inititial review, fine. I removed myself from the process and saw to it you got your review under your conditions.

These three parts stood out.

Yes, we had a private forum so that staff and PWA could talk to each other. However, go look at that post. We had one post from a PWA involved in the review and it was more of a 'suck it up and do work' post.

Yes, you posted questions, but as you also admit in the next quote you weren't apart of the review. We did not know what the three PWAs who were making the decision were thinking throughout this process. We voiced our opinions best we could because we did not know otherwise. Like you said, our own answers made you feel like there were questions unanswered. Okay, so where were the other PWAs to voice that? Why did it have to be you to take notice when you were not apart of this review?

Answer: Lack of communication between staff and PWA.

I will say for somebody who wasn't suppose to be involved you were very involved. Not saying it's a bad thing, but considering the past how information gets lost in transit from PWA to Players I can see why we never knew what the other PWAs were thinking because Bell was the one trying to get the ball rolling, not them.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Talking about Pokemon Cards or flirting with the 13 year old Shannon is certainly not doing research, and I'm starting to think that the cozying up to staff has blinded the actual reality of the server. Where was the investigations? Where was PWA on accounts that staff didn't know actually assessing what goes on? Where was the actual review here?

I don't really see how that's any of your business considering you're not a part of the staff team.

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

No, no you didn't.

I know I didn't get your opinion, and I'm very sorry. I already apologized to you on RC but you apparently didn't accept my apology and are being very immature about this situation. Bell said positive things about you, I don't understand what she is talking about, and to be honest I have probably lost respect for Bell in the whole situation due to her suggesting anything positive after I've seen the way you behave.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

Yeah you really didn't talk to me much either, Tig.
In fact I remember you ignoring me quite a bit after the first day of the review.

I never ignored you. You're just adding in fluff to make your story sound good so you can contribute to the drama and feel like part of the team. Have fun.

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

Basicly what I said to Tig when he came to pick a fight with me on RC. When Mystic and I can agree completely on something you know something is up.

I didn't "pick a fight" with you. I logged on, I civilly apologized and you told me to "get the **** out of here," and continued to say how "insulting" I'm being for apologizing.

Originally Posted by Rufus

To be fair, TSAdmin and Skyld both agreed on wanting Storm to keep his position. It was Tig who forced this Thor idea into it and now I understand why he got so upset and singled out my post.

Yes, I am the one who added the idea of making Thor manager. I figured it would be better and give Classic a better chance at some progress than just leaving everything alone, as proposed.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

Alright, time for me to speak up, now that I've been able to get some sleep.
While I'm going to remain neutral about this new Thorm management specifically,
I am not going to remain neutral of the PWA awful handling of the aftermath this has created.

I'm not here to be your punching bag. I don't know what you're talking about specifically, either. Aftermath is being created by you guys, not us.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

Yeah, you made your final decision, guess what? It wasn't the change the people wanted here. I'm not speaking for myself either, obviously with such a negative poll number about the decision(Current results to has the PWA made the correct decision is 5 Yes to 21 No) and this much outcry from it on the forums and in game. While I agree the PWA should have to defend their judgement and explain to the masses on why they came to such a decision, while answering their specific quieries in such a polite manner, that is not what is happening at all.

So what if it isn't what the players wanted to hear? Why should we base our decision solely off of what players want when we're the administrators who have deep rooted management experience? We took the player's opinions into account when making a decision, but you, as a developer, should know by now that listening to the players on every single decision is simply a bad move.

Players should be involved in decisions for:

• Content Updates
• Events
• Reviews of the server

As far as I'm concerned the players should hardly be involved in changes of the staff team. They're not part of the staff team, so they really don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

The general theme coming from various PWA members at any time is to tell the people to 'quit whining'(that was how TSA STARTED OFF). Quit trying to fight with these players that don't agree with you, pick them apart and argue with them. I'm not talking about one specific instance either.

I'm not going to deny anything here, you're absolutely correct, and you can refer to my statement above. We're not here to be your personal punching bag, we made the decision, you can complain all you want but it's not going to change anything, sorry, that's the reality of it.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

Between the 3 PWA members, we've had Tig log onto RC and pick fights with Stryker, we've had Tig come on here and pick a fight with Rufus, who isnt even an admin or staff member here, a player. we have TSAdmin doing that with Kill now, albiet in a more professional attempt.

I really hate people who stretch the truth. I didn't log on RC and "pick fights" with anyone, and I'm certainly not fighting with Rufus. I'd just like to thank you for helping me prove my point, considering TSAdmin isn't fighting with anyone. Apparently you consider arguing a point to be fighting, well it's not.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

The general reaction of the PWA to the player outcry of the decision that they made has been negative and hostile. I can see the reasoning behind their outcry, the decision arrived to, has been that nearly opposite the views of the players in general, it certainly is of this 20+ page thread we're in now.

I don't honestly have anything to say about this, I feel like everyone is just saying the same thing over and over again. Broken record.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

One of the biggest issues on classic is the low player and staff morale about the server in general. This has been a big thing I have been dedicating myself to fix as much as I can. The PWA right now is completely throwing all of the players morale into the toilet. The decision was going to generate hostility, DEAL WITH IT. Act like global administrators for christ's sake. This isn't some damn flame war, this is GLOBAL STAFF interacting with PLAYERS but it sure as hell isn't how its coming off. If this is how you guys are going to react and interact with the players, please, go away, far far away from Classic, I don't need the player and staff morale going down FURTHER because you guys can't take a little heat without getting butthurt.

As I liked to tell Ocelot on Era, "I don't take heat, I extinguish it." You can blame the PWA for all of your problems if you want, I don't care, but not taking responsibility for your own problems is just sad. We reviewed your server as a result of you. We gave you our honest decision based on what we had observed. We came there because you guys asked us to come there, so I really don't see how we're the ones responsible for this happening.

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

That's the thing, they didn't even converse with those involved. DC heard from Tig once on day one of the review. I heard from nobody. Bell even slipped my name on the list of potential Managers but we see how far that went. How can they change Managers without speaking to the Admins that directly have to work with that Manager? Let alone consider all options.

I see you're still dragging this out and beating a dead horse. I've apologized countless times, there's nothing else I can say to you now.

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

The funny thing is Tig said they talked to everyone involved, then when I said "No, no you didn't." he came on RC to apologize and ask my opinion, AFTER. THE. FACT. then said my opinion was just that, opinion. Very insulting.

You're right, that is an absolute riot. I don't see how apologizing for missing you in the review and then asking your opinion is "very insulting." I guess back here on Earth things work a bit differently though.

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

He even said he was under the impression somebody had spoken with me. This is the second bit of miscommunication among the PWA during the review I was talking about. Ignore the fact they don't even play the server, they can't even talk amongst themselves properly.

Yes, I'm human, I make mistakes. Oops!!! Get over it already.

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I don't really see how that's any of your business considering you're not a part of the staff team.

He plays the server you just did a bogus review of, of course it's his business.

I know I didn't get your opinion, and I'm very sorry. I already apologized to you on RC but you apparently didn't accept my apology and are being very immature about this situation. Bell said positive things about you, I don't understand what she is talking about, and to be honest I have probably lost respect for Bell in the whole situation due to her suggesting anything positive after I've seen the way you behave.

I didn't "pick a fight" with you. I logged on, I civilly apologized and you told me to "get the **** out of here," and continued to say how "insulting" I'm being for apologizing.

You logged on and asked my opinion knowing fully well it wouldn't matter. You already made it clear it didn't matter by doing the review without it, but to even ask after the fact? That's insulting. And you weren't trying to pick a fight?

"Tig: So in the 10 years you've worked here, you're telling me you don't know any of the staff well enough to make an informed decision on who should be manager?"

What kind of comment is this? To try and use my experience against me. It wasn't just me and DC who saw you trying to pick a fight. You may not think you were, but you were.

I'd also like to point out two people have echoed my "get the **** out of here" comment in this very post. Just because I was the first one to say it directly to you doesn't make it misplaced.

As far as I'm concerned the players should hardly be involved in changes of the staff team. They're not part of the staff team, so they really don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

Either you worded this very poorly or you just slapped every player in the face. I want to believe you're saying that they shouldn't have a swaying decision on the matter, but players should be heard and involved.

I don't honestly have anything to say about this, I feel like everyone is just saying the same thing over and over again. Broken record.

So if you're hearing it over and over from everyone, does that not say something to you?

Yes, I'm human, I make mistakes. Oops!!! Get over it already.

This isn't the only mistake the PWA made during the review. One I can look passed.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

You logged on and asked my opinion knowing fully well it wouldn't matter. You already made it clear it didn't matter by doing the review without it, but to even ask after the fact? That's insulting. And you weren't trying to pick a fight?

"Tig: So in the 10 years you've worked here, you're telling me you don't know any of the staff well enough to make an informed decision on who should be manager?"

What kind of comment is this? To try and use my experience against me. It wasn't just me and DC who saw you trying to pick a fight. You may not think you were, but you were.

(I approve of him posting this RC chat history, so it doesn't need to be deleted.)
You were quick to point out all of our mistakes and tell us that we made the wrong decision, but when I asked you who you thought would have been a better choice, you were completely dumbfounded. You scrambled to find some excuse that "you don't know the situation well enough to judge," even though you're judging right now. I asked you how long you worked for Classic, you said you worked there for 10 years, and then I proceeded to ask, "So in the 10 years you've worked here, you're telling me you don't know any of the staff well enough to make an informed decision on who should be manager?"

You never gave an answer, so as far as I see it, you're just complaining to complain.

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

you're saying that they shouldn't have a swaying decision on the matter, but players should be heard and involved.

Yes, that is correct.

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

You never gave an answer, so as far as I see it, you're just complaining to complain.

Yes, I get up every day and say to myself "What can I complain about on Classic today."

I can't make a decision on who should be Manager because I'm a GP Admin. I've been a GP since '99. I don't see the Development side of things. If I had to make a decision I'd have to say give me a week or two or however long it took you guys to come up with this bogus solution. You don't and didn't make a decision on the spot so to expect me to is pretty shady.

Like I said, give me the same amount of time and I know for a fact I could come up with a better solution.

[xnervNATx]

wow i didnt bother reading that huge ass paragraph tig . my eyes ARE BLEEDING

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I don't really see how that's any of your business considering you're not a part of the staff team.

If a member of the staff team had posted it, would you have answered it? That can be arranged.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Bell said positive things about you, I don't understand what she is talking about, and to be honest I have probably lost respect for Bell in the whole situation due to her suggesting anything positive after I've seen the way you behave.

Bell has no control over how Stryker acts and if she has had good experience with him over a long period of time, who the hell are you to say **** about her judgment?

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Yes, I am the one who added the idea of making Thor manager. I figured it would be better and give Classic a better chance at some progress than just leaving everything alone, as proposed.

How would it?

Originally Posted by Tigairius

So what if it isn't what the players wanted to hear? Why should we base our decision solely off of what players want when we're the administrators who have deep rooted management experience? We took the player's opinions into account when making a decision, but you, as a developer, should know by now that listening to the players on every single decision is simply a bad move.

Players should be involved in decisions for:

• Content Updates
• Events
• Reviews of the server

As far as I'm concerned the players should hardly be involved in changes of the staff team. They're not part of the staff team, so they really don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

What you don't seem to get is that Graal is comprised entirely of players. The Playerworld Administration are players, the Classic staff are players, and so are the rest of the people involved. Why do you act like people who aren't holding staff positions are below those that are? Yeah, I can see how the PWA might work hard and do a lot more than inexperienced players do, but the loudest voices in this thread are far from inexperienced. I have worked on Classic in a couple of different staff positions (like everyone else in this thread), I have developed for Classic, and I have been a player on it for god damn years. How does that make my opinion, or anyone else's for that matter, apparently worthless?

I think that most of the people in this thread know more of what goes on behind the scenes on Classic than you do and it's obvious through the decisions, conclusions, and blindly stupid statements you come out with. If Classic was all happy and perfect, maybe players wouldn't need to even get involved in staff drama, but it gets in the way of playing and every single decision made on that server should be for the players. Yes their opinion matters, because they're the ones that are constantly picking up the pieces of these bad decisions, not the "deep rooted management experience[d]" team who apparently only make it worse.

[xnervNATx]

Originally Posted by Rufus

What you don't seem to get is that Graal is comprised entirely of players. The Playerworld Administration are players, the Classic staff are players, and so are the rest of the people involved. Why do you act like people who aren't holding staff positions are below those that are? Yeah, I can see how the PWA might work hard and do a lot more than inexperienced players do, but the loudest voices in this thread are far from inexperienced. I have worked on Classic as a few different things like everyone else in this thread, I have developed for Classic, and I have been a player on it for god damn years. How does that make our opinions worthless?

I think that most of the people in this thread know more of what goes on behind the scenes on Classic than you do and it's obvious through the decisions, conclusions, and blindly stupid statements you come out with. If Classic was all happy and perfect, maybe players wouldn't need to even get involved in staff drama, but it gets in the way of playing and every single decision made on that server should be for the players. Yes their opinion matters, because they're the ones that are constantly picking up the pieces of these bad decisions, not the "deep rooted management experience[d]" team who apparently only make it worse.

that is so damn true . tig i dont see how you know ANYthing about what we players have been getting since the start. if ur going to act like you know everything you should at least sthu before its make you look even more stupider

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Rufus

How would it?

Hopefully it would push development faster, you guys complained about an inactive manager and Thor isn't inactive. Now you have an active manager.

Originally Posted by Rufus

What you don't seem to get is that Graal is comprised entirely of players. The Playerworld Administration are players, the Classic staff are players, and so are the rest of the people involved. Why do you act like people who aren't holding staff positions are below those that are? Yeah, I can see how the PWA might work hard and do a lot more than inexperienced players do, but the loudest voices in this thread are far from inexperienced. I have worked on Classic in a couple of different staff positions (like everyone else in this thread), I have developed for Classic, and I have been a player on it for god damn years. How does that make my opinion, or anyone else's for that matter, apparently worthless?

Of course I know Graal is comprised entirely of players. I am obviously talking about the differences between the players on Classic and the staff on Classic. There are obvious differences between being a player and being staff.

Here is your typical twisting of my words again, I never said anyone's opinion is worthless.

Originally Posted by Rufus

I think that most of the people in this thread know more of what goes on behind the scenes on Classic than you do and it's obvious through the decisions, conclusions, and blindly stupid statements you come out with. If Classic was all happy and perfect, maybe players wouldn't need to even get involved in staff drama, but it gets in the way of playing and every single decision made on that server should be for the players. Yes their opinion matters, because they're the ones that are constantly picking up the pieces of these bad decisions, not the "deep rooted management experience[d]" team who apparently only make it worse.

I don't doubt that some of the players on Classic know more about what goes on behind the scenes than I do, but that doesn't mean everything they say is automatically fact and we should listen to everything they say and take it to heart.

[xnervNATx]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Hopefully it would push development faster, you guys complained about an inactive manager and Thor isn't inactive. Now you have an active manager. .

MY GOD THAT SPLENDID. let wait for him to release that raffle , i cant wait to win that pyramid gani and that npc that let you buy raffle tickets , cant wait.....