this needs to be discussed

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Hiro

honestly, it's developers not doing anything, and the upper tier of graal staff that are killing graal

You need to realize that that the higher-ups have left it mostly in our hands. They can't swoop down and make miracles every day for every server.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Draenin

You need to realize that that the higher-ups have left it mostly in our hands. They can't swoop down and make miracles every day for every server.

hence the purpose of this thread?

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Hiro

hence the purpose of this thread?

Yeah, see, that's the problem. You spend your days waiting for miracles to happen, and it's not their job to do your work for you.

You need to realize that, despite the fact that you pay to play, Graal Staff owes you nothing. People pay for development space (servers) and to be able to interact with the work of others. That, if you ask me, should be enough. Updates will come when they can. The best anyone can do is make good use of what they've got.

[Switch]

Originally Posted by Hiro

the very lack of seriousness by certain members of the forum also adds to this problem. it discredits the rest of us who can take it seriously, since then the "thread is ruined"

If you're talking about my revolt idea, I am completely serious.

Originally Posted by Draenin

You need to realize that that the higher-ups have left it mostly in our hands. They can't swoop down and make miracles every day for every server.

No one wants them to make a miracle, we want them to do something to better THEIR game. I'm pretty sure we can say the players have done a lot more work than the higher-ups have, and quite fed up with having to do every bit (besides a few ****ty client updates) of work for them.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Switch

If you're talking about my revolt idea, I am completely serious.


No one wants them to make a miracle, we want them to do something to better THEIR game. I'm pretty sure we can say the players have done a lot more work than the higher-ups have, and quite fed up with having to do every bit (besides a few ****ty client updates) of work for them.

i wasn't referring to you, but in all honesty a revolt of that kind is unrealistic. again - how do we get other people to join in?

and technically, the owners actually created the game and then warped it to work with the torque engine. that is a big feat, but in terms of actual content i will completely agree with you

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Hiro

but if it's in our hands to do something, and we do nothing, then we are no better than the owners

Precisely.

Originally Posted by Hiro

stop spouting your self-righteous bull**** and "take a step back for a moment" pessimism. if it's up to us, then lets get something done

Who ever said I was being pessimistic? I'm right there with ya on this sentiment. I think more users need to start kicking ass and taking names.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Who ever said I was being pessimistic? I'm right there with ya on this sentiment. I think more users need to start kicking ass and taking names.

it's how i perceived it - sorry for the misunderstanding

now, as a developer, would you be willing to work on a project with the goal of bringing in new players? would you be willing to ask everyone and anyone you know who can help out with the project? non-developers can't lead a development charade, and all it takes is one person with the time and motivation to start making it happen

if not you, then who?

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Hiro

it's how i perceived it - sorry for the misunderstanding

now, as a developer, would you be willing to work on a project with the goal of bringing in new players? would you be willing to ask everyone and anyone you know who can help out with the project? non-developers can't lead a development charade, and all it takes is one person with the time and motivation to start making it happen

if not you, then who?

Well, it's not just something that -you- or -I- need to do. The community itself needs a better attitude altogether about bringing in new players and not just turning them away. Instead of saying, "Yeah, all these servers suck," players and developers should give newbies (and even oldbies) more reasons to stick around.

And by the way, here's that particle editor I was talking about. Players are -very- capable of making their own tools. The problem is, even when they're made, a lot of people don't bother to share them:

[Stephen]

What I've previously suggested is a that a group of interested parties within the community form a sub-community whose interest & purpose is the betterment of Graal Online... in preparation for advertising...

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Well, it's not just something that -you- or -I- need to do. The community itself needs a better attitude altogether about bringing in new players and not just turning them away. Instead of saying, "Yeah, all these servers suck," players and developers should give newbies (and even oldbies) more reasons to stick around.

And by the way, here's that particle editor I was talking about. Players are -very- capable of making their own tools. The problem is, even when they're made, a lot of people don't bother to share them:

i didn't say that we should stand alone. i meant someone has to take the initiative and start the social proof. also, that's a pretty awesome tool you've made there, looks very useful since you can skip the scripting and get into the functionality

Originally Posted by Stephen

What I've previously suggested is a that a group of interested parties within the community form a sub-community whose interest & purpose is the betterment of Graal Online... in preparation for advertising...

i think we should formulate this immediately, it's a great idea. i'm in if others are

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Hiro

i didn't say that we should stand alone. i meant someone has to take the initiative and start the social proof. also, that's a pretty awesome tool you've made there, looks very useful since you can skip the scripting and get into the functionality

Credit goes to Mallard, not me. If users made tools as useful as this, things would get done much quicker.

The code itself is shared, but few people have taken a look at it, and they really should.

[fowlplay4]

I've always been under the impression for a long time now that the men upstairs don't really care about projects other than their own gold servers, and the only time you get their attention is when something goes terribly wrong.

So to have to go to those extremes like that to get attention so action can be taken is sad

[Admins]

My 2 cents:
Please play and develope for Graal if you have fun with it, don't get a headache by making weird business proposals. We know ourself that the best way to make money with Graal would be to take some successful server, stop development, making it Flash or so, and make tons of advertising (advertising for and in the game). But that wouldn't be Graal. The interesting part of Graal is that the players can take part, can submit their own graphics for heads, become FAQ, get RC, make their own server, work on interesting projects. We currently have a clear plan for Graal, that is releasing v6 in the near future to make the game run fast and bring a lot of new possibilities for players and developers. But we know that Graal will not make us rich, we are happy if the subscriptions can pay for the costs of running it. That's why we take the opportunities and try to expand into other areas, including iPhone and mobile devices where the future of computing and gaming lies, and use our experience with online game.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Crono1508

Want to make a new movement? What to get their attention? Stop logging on Graal, everyone.

how do we even organize that, or get the people who don't post or view the forums to get in on it, or understand why we're doing it in the first place?

the very lack of seriousness by certain members of the forum also adds to this problem. it discredits the rest of us who can take it seriously, since then the "thread is ruined"

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by Hiro

how do we even organize that, or get the people who don't post or view the forums to get in on it, or understand why we're doing it in the first place?

the very lack of seriousness by certain members of the forum also adds to this problem. it discredits the rest of us who can take it seriously, since then the "thread is ruined"

They will laugh that we wasted a day of our gold subscription.

@ Stephen:
People are moaning that their favorite game is being ruined by the management.
Of couse: We can develop better servers, we can tell friends about it, we can play it. But we can do nothing about the outside marketing and about graal shrinking every day.
There is no roadmap, no announced upcoming features, no real development on client, server and especially the devtools.

If the management is not willing to invest more time or time at all: close it down or lower gold subscriptions, so that it only covers hosting costs - because:
Are we men't to pay for our own work, while the mgmt relaxes in their seats and laugh? They are certainly doing no noticeable work at the moment.

I understand that most parts of graal are developed by the community, but they should atleast work on their turf, too: Client updates, upcoming features, new concepts to fetch more players, better devtools - and no scam, as it seems to be at the moment.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Darklux

They will laugh that we wasted a day of our gold subscription.

@ Stephen:
People are moaning that their favorite game is being ruined by the management.
Of couse: We can develop better servers, we can tell friends about it, we can play it. But we can do nothing about the outside marketing and about graal shrinking every day.
There is no roadmap, no announced upcoming features, no real development on client, server and especially the devtools.

If the management is not willing to invest more time or time at all: close it down or lower gold subscriptions, so that it only covers hosting costs - because:
Are we men't to pay for our own work, while the mgmt relaxes in their seats and laugh? They are certainly doing no noticeable work at the moment.

I understand that most parts of graal are developed by the community, but they should atleast work on their turf, too: Client updates, upcoming features, new concepts to fetch more players, better devtools - and no scam, as it seems to be at the moment.

completely agree. having rights to the playerworld you made is not comparable to how much money the owners are making off it. not that it's a terrible deal, it's just not fair. the people upstairs have to keep up their end of the bargain - advertisements, updates, information announcements, and help to the players that need it. this may not be the real motivation, but it seems that they want to work on other aspects of their business as we keep the core of their business operating - and we get practically nothing in return