The Fine Line - The Limit of Roleplaying

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

And have you abandoned the 'learning aid' argument now?

No?

We will continue to use the brackets as a learning aid.

Why? Because those that can role play can tell an OOC statement from an IC statement, but those that are new to it can't always do that. And, sometimes some CAN differentiate them, but they lack in role playing skill.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Gambet

No?

We will continue to use the brackets as a learning aid.

Why? Because those that can role play can tell an OOC statement from an IC statement, but those that are new to it can't always do that. And, sometimes some CAN differentiate them, but they lack in role playing skill.

Or if you had a set of RP rules, you could use them as a learning aid. Since people could just read them, and then they'd know how to RP!

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Googi

Or if you had a set of RP rules, you could use them as a learning aid. Since people could just read them, and then they'd know how to RP!

Even with rules, we will still use the brackets x_X.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

those that can role play can tell an OOC statement from an IC statement, but those that are new to it can't always do that

Yes they can. The problem isn't that these people are stupid. It's that they don't care as much as you do. You don't need training to distinguish between IC and OOC messages.

And, sometimes some CAN differentiate them

...in which case the brackets aren't necessary.

[Curt1zzle]

Googi:

The "team" can not compensate for the stupidity of the average player. The only people who would take the time to read these guides would be the ones who already follow and abide by the rules.

Those who are too lazy to read the guides are ussually those who break the RP rules anyhow.

It's a neverending loop of laziness and stupidity.

[Draenin]

Wow. I miss a few hours and the post count in this topic explodes. Kaim, if you don't like RPing, that's great. Shut up about it. We're not going to force you into using brackets or not using brackets if you don't want to. *Glares at Gambet* Quit making this such a struggle, both of you. The administration is going to exist, and it is comprised of people who were selected because they were recommended for their abilities. We plan on using our abilities to try and get things rolling on GK again in terms of character development for those who are not so uptight. If you don't like to dance, just be a wallflower. "Checkmate," mate. *snickers*

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Curt1zzle

The "team" can not compensate for the stupidity of the average player. The only people who would take the time to read these guides would be the ones who already follow and abide by the rules.

Players are no more stupid or lazy than they were on 2K1, and it was the people who knew how to RP who were the trouble there.

[Butz]

The entire team hasn't had a chance to meet yet, so I can't say anything definitive, but I think we should be focusing on encouraging roleplay by making it interesting and somewhat easy for people to get into, not by becoming the RP secret police and breathing down players' necks. Here to help RP to exist by teaching and participating, not here to force it.

[Splke]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Wow. I miss a few hours and the post count in this topic explodes. Kaim, if you don't like RPing, that's great. Shut up about it. We're not going to force you into using brackets or not using brackets if you don't want to. *Glares at Gambet* Quit making this such a struggle, both of you. The administration is going to exist, and it is comprised of people who were selected because they were recommended for their abilities. We plan on using our abilities to try and get things rolling on GK again in terms of character development for those who are not so uptight. If you don't like to dance, just be a wallflower. "Checkmate," mate. *snickers*

<<... You're about to get slammed into a wall thousands of time for that one, dudez.

Oh, and honestly.. the only problem I have with the "RP Team" is the people (so far I've seen) who are part of it, that being Draenin and Gambet. That's pretty pathetic lol

[busyrobot]

Just to point out: use of OOC brackets is not a rule for RPing, its a rule for not RPing and they get way overused. I find when people think its okay to disrupt the flow of an RP event to make a "look at me" joke in ((oocs)) its more distracting than not using brackets at all.

Overall I support their use, but I support actually roleplaying during the day instead of using them more, and only using them in an event to convey info needed in game that cannot be said IC. When no one in a group is roleplaying, but are on tag the lack of use them doesn't cause any problems in my opinion.

If roleplaying is to thrive, there has to be rp continuity. If you travel to Samurai while your kingdom is at war with them, oocs make no difference if the two sentries you run into just say ((dumb retard noobs get tf off if u wer in bmode youd be dead)). I am not saying Samurai is like that now (I haven't played for more than 20 minutes in months) but if you are serious about reviving RP you need rules to handle continuity in a fair way.

[Draenin]

Just to point out: use of OOC brackets is not a rule for RPing, its a rule for not RPing and they get way overused. I find when people think its okay to disrupt the flow of an RP event to make a "look at me" joke in ((oocs)) its more distracting than not using brackets at all.

Thank you. I don't feel they need to necessarily be enforced either. Argo, don't even talk like you know who I am. You've never even spoken to me, aside from on the forums. I have other stuff to post, but not here and now, and not dealing with you, Argo, so don't get defensive.

[Gambet]

Our intentions are not to be extremely strict, as Val is. It seems the main goal is to bring back role playing to the server and to the kingdoms, and that is what we will try to do. No one alone will make any decisions, but rather all of our decisions are to be made as a team. Six minds are a lot greater then one, so we will all have to sit down and converse on basically everything (role playing wise atleast).

We are not GP's. Our intentions are not to punish. We will teach players how to role play and hopefully role playing can become more active on GK.

[Splke]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Argo, don't even talk like you know who I am. You've never even spoken to me, aside from on the forums. I have other stuff to post, but not here and now, and not dealing with you, Argo, so don't get defensive.

I know there are better candidates than you. You're the one getting defensive :0

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Kaim, if you don't like RPing, that's great

Don't be an idiot. This isn't a matter of liking RPing, it's a matter of knowing how to do it properly. You want to inundate people with *****ic rules that only obstruct something that should be fundamentally free-form. And why? So that you can appear to be doing something? So you can pat yourself on the back and say you did a good job? Your problem isn't something that can be solved so trivially, and you're completely ignoring the bigger issues.

The administration is going to exist, and it is comprised of people who were selected because they were recommended for their abilities

Hell, man. You could take any player and eventually find somebody that would recommend him. Doesn't really prove much.

Originally Posted by Butz

I think we should be focusing on encouraging roleplay by making it interesting and somewhat easy for people to get into, not by becoming the RP secret police and breathing down players' necks. Here to help RP to exist by teaching and participating, not here to force it.

Aha. At least one of you has the right idea.

[Draenin]

Don't be an idiot. This isn't a matter of liking RPing, it's a matter of knowing how to do it properly. You want to inundate people with *****ic rules that only obstruct something that should be fundamentally free-form. And why? So that you can appear to be doing something? So you can pat yourself on the back and say you did a good job? Your problem isn't something that can be solved so trivially, and you're completely ignoring the bigger issues.

Since when have I been churning out rules? As far as I know, all I have been talking about is what our purpose will be. Shawn and I have spoken with Gambet, who seems to be wanting to make quite a few over-the-top rules. We are not missing out on the 'bigger issues.' We have been told what to focus on, and I will ensure that we stay focused.

Hell, man. You could take any player and eventually find somebody that would recommend him. Doesn't really prove much.

We were picked not only by other people who knew us, but also by Sam himself. True, anyone could do it, but it just so happens that we are.

Aha. At least one of you has the right idea.

Actually, three of us have that idea as far as I know. Only one of us doesn't. It's okay though. We will try to get things with Gam--er... the team, straightened out.

You're the one getting defensive :0

Perhaps, but you've done your best to try to take down a lot of stuff I say on the forums.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Since when have I been churning out rules?

So you think that use of parentheses should not be mandatory? In that case, we agree with one another. We have the same opinion! So why are you saying that my disagreements with Gambet imply that I don't want to roleplay? Did you even read the things I said?

We were picked not only by other people who knew us, but also by Sam himself

I don't think that's a name you should be proud to drop.

Also: When quoting posts, please indicate who you're actually quoting.

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Also: When quoting posts, please indicate who you're actually quoting.

Yeah, I've kind of been noticing that too. I'll be sure to do that. =) It sparks from laziness.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

So why are you saying that my disagreements with Gambet imply that I don't want to roleplay?

Because when Gambet argues, I get a tremendous headache and I have to run to the kitchen for caffeine or something to make my headache go away. We see things on the same level. I dunno if Gambet does. He has the tendency to complicate things. Butz and I have learned this well. So yeah.. I kind of get confused about things he talks about.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Because when Gambet argues, I get a tremendous headache and I have to run to the kitchen for caffeine or something to make my headache go away

Then insult him, not me.

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Draenin

We're not going to force you into using brackets or not using brackets if you don't want to. *Glares at Gambet*

He does not take hints well.

[Gambet]

Hey, I never take the easy way out of things. And this whole ordeal between Kai and myself has been going on for quite some time.


But, anyways, there will always be someone who doesn't agree with you on things. If you just go about insulting him all around the place, well then that will just lead to problems. I do believe the first thing I said was that since we're a team, we should not throw any insults to anyone in the team at all. It seems that you, Drae, forget things quite quickly. My ideas are not "complicated" if you would sit back and listen. It seems that since I'm not at the same "level" with you, you wouldn't hear out anything I have to say since I don't agree with you.


But, hey, that's cool. There are four others.

Hey, something I learned from Kai :

If someone doesn't agree with you on something, rather then insulting them, which gets you no-where, state your views and support them, let them state their views and support them, and then you can converse the both point of views and come up with a solution.


(or something like that =P)

Originally Posted by Draenin

He does not take hints well.

Oh, I understood your "hint", but I chose not to address it. I'd rather not have problems with my fellow teammates, since the whole team is about teamwork. So, say what you want about me, but keep the comments on a private level.

[Draenin]

Gambet, you are rushing ahead of things far too quickly. We have not discussed any rules regarding brackets or whatnot, and you are throwing your ideas out like frisbees on a California beach. If you want to keep arguing with Kai, do it on your own time. Don't bring your unapproved ideas onto the forum to get folks uptight about the RP Team when we haven't even had our first meeting yet. I could throw the ideas you discussed onto here, but I am kind enough not to do so. Except maybe one, since you decided to say this:

Originally Posted by Gambet

My ideas are not "complicated" if you would sit back and listen.

I suppose the idea of making areas like buildings, dungeons, etc. IC areas and forcing people to roleplay when they're in them isn't complicated, huh? I bet half of GK would just love that. Nothing better than going into trade, forgetting brackets, and being pilloried. Makes my day anyday.

Originally Posted by Gambet

I do believe the first thing I said was that since we're a team, we should not throw any insults to anyone in the team at all.

By "we" you mean me. Don't mask it. And the first thing you discussed was the roleplaying guide with Butz. Remember the second thing? Something about Debug. Don't make me go into it, or I can get you into more trouble than you anticipated.

Oh, and don't act like the RP Team is behind everything you say. As Gryffon has said to me, "It's fine if he prefaces it with 'It's just my opinion but' but not 'The RP Team thinks that'."

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Gambet, you are rushing ahead of things far too quickly. We have not discussed any rules regarding brackets or whatnot, and you are throwing your ideas out like frisbees on a California beach. If you want to keep arguing with Kai, do it on your own time. Don't bring your unapproved ideas onto the forum to get folks uptight about the RP Team when we haven't even had our first meeting yet. I could throw the ideas you discussed onto here, but I am kind enough not to do so. Except maybe one, since you decided to say this:


I suppose the idea of making areas like buildings, dungeons, etc. IC areas and forcing people to roleplay when they're in them isn't complicated, huh? I bet half of GK would just love that. Nothing better than going into trade, forgetting brackets, and being pilloried. Makes my day anyday.

Butz came up with a better solution that I do believe we all agreed on. I love when people do this....use old references in arguments, when they have already been cleared. Happens a lot lately.

Originally Posted by Draenin

By "we" you mean me. Don't mask it. And the first thing you discussed was the roleplaying guide with Butz. Remember the second thing? Something about Debug. Don't make me go into it, or I can get you into more trouble than you anticipated.

By "we" I mean the team. You wouldn't like it very much if the team was talking behind your back, now would you? That's not much of a team. A team is not a team if we have an outcast. There will always be disagreements, but as a team we need to hear all disagreements out and come up with a better solution. Thus, the art of teamwork!

Originally Posted by Draenin

Oh, and don't act like the RP Team is behind everything you say. As Gryffon has said to me, "It's fine if he prefaces it with 'It's just my opinion but' but not 'The RP Team thinks that'."

I don't act like anyone is behind me. OOC brackets have been around forever. The OOC brackets rules have also been around forever. Until we, the team, come up with better rules to replace them, then they will have to still be used in the future.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

I don't act like anyone is behind me. OOC brackets have been around forever. The OOC brackets rules have also been around forever. Until we, the team, come up with better rules to replace them, then they will have to still be used in the future.

1) How exactly do you intend to enforce them?
2) You seem to be arguing that a bad rule can only be removed if a better one can be identified?

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Butz came up with a better solution that I do believe we all agreed on.

We didn't "all agree" on anything. You just liked the idea, and you ran with it. The problem is that you do not listen, Gambet.

And no, by "we"

Originally Posted by Gambet

we should not throw any insults

You meant me. And by

Originally Posted by Gambet

anyone in the team

You meant yourself. You are not the Team, Gambet.

Originally Posted by Gambet

A team is not a team if we have an outcast.

You were an outcast from the beginning. (A 'testmember.')

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Draenin

We didn't "all agree" on anything. You just liked the idea, and you ran with it. The problem is that you do not listen, Gambet.

Considering you said you agreed on it and I said I agreed on it and Butz made the suggestion, then I guess that means we all agreed on it (atleast everyone who was there at the moment). Remember, it does not mean that what Butz suggested would be used, it just means that we found a better solution for an idea, which is a good thing.

Originally Posted by Draenin

And no, by "we"

You meant me. And by

By "we" I meant The Team.

Originally Posted by Draenin

You were an outcast from the beginning. (A 'testmember.')

That does not make me an outcast. I'm in the team on more of a trial basis to show Bjoern and Sam that I can keep up with both my Zone job and GK job.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

1) How exactly do you intend to enforce them?
2) You seem to be arguing that a bad rule can only be removed if a better one can be identified?

1) I'm not going to enforce that rule if the team does not agree upon it. As I said, my intentions are not to punish, but rather to teach.

2) Not exactly. A bad rule can be removed, but we still have not found valid reasoning for it to be deemed a "bad rule". It is quite useful for those beginning to learn, and it's also useful during role playing events (which was explained a few posts above by someone else).

[xAndrewx]

Kingdoms were invented on Graal Kingdoms for RP. If you don't want to RP then don't join a kingdom.

[Draenin]

Considering you said you agreed on it and I said I agreed on it and Butz made the suggestion, then I guess that means we all agreed on it (atleast everyone who was there at the moment). Remember, it does not mean that what Butz suggested would be used, it just means that we found a better solution for an idea, which is a good thing.

What the hell? Okay, whatever. I didn't agree to anything regarding areas designated for RP. Period. We did not all agree.

Originally Posted by Gambet

That does not make me an outcast. I'm in the team on more of a trial basis to show Bjoern and Sam that I can keep up with both my Zone job and GK job.

You are clearly not. Your mind is still "Zoned out." People don't like being punished for not using a damned set of parinthesis. Your ideas snuff out the more fun aspects of it.

Originally Posted by Gambet

A bad rule can be removed, but we still have not found valid reasoning for it to be deemed a "bad rule".

Do not say "we." Have we met on this yet? No. Has everyone had a chance for input? No. Quit putting your words in our mouths.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Draenin

What the hell? Okay, whatever. I didn't agree to anything regarding areas designated for RP. Period. We did not all agree.

AIM logs say differently.

Originally Posted by Draenin

You are clearly not. Your mind is still "Zoned out." People don't like being punished for not using a damned set of parinthesis. Your ideas snuff out the more fun aspects of it.

Read what I said to Kai about the enforcing of rules.

Originally Posted by Draenin

Do not say "we." Have we met on this yet? No. Has everyone had a chance for input? No. Quit putting your words in our mouths.

I said 'we' as in everyone complaining about it in this thread, not the team. It seems you are rather confused.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

I'm not going to enforce that rule if the team does not agree upon it. As I said, my intentions are not to punish, but rather to teach

This seems to conflict with your earlier statement:

"they will have to still be used in the future"

If they are not going to be enforced, how are they going to be "used"?

Not exactly. A bad rule can be removed, but we still have not found valid reasoning for it to be deemed a "bad rule"

Well, I already explained that. Context usually makes it easy to tell that a person is speaking out of character. The brackets don't add anything, and they inconvenience the players. Bad rule.

Your words:

"Until we, the team, come up with better rules to replace them [...]"

Are you now rescinding this and agreeing that the rule could be removed even without a replacement, as long as it can be shown to be detrimental?

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

This seems to conflict with your earlier statement:

"they will have to still be used in the future"

If they are not going to be enforced, how are they going to be "used"?

They won't be if the team decides to not use them.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Well, I already explained that. Context usually makes it easy to tell that a person is speaking out of character. The brackets don't add anything, and they inconvenience the players. Bad rule.

Your words:

"Until we, the team, come up with better rules to replace them [...]"

Are you now rescinding this and agreeing that the rule could be removed even without a replacement, as long as it can be shown to be detrimental?

Yes, I will bring up this discussion with the team when we have our meeting. We have still yet to meet everyone together, so nothing has been determined as of yet. But, all suggestions are welcome.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

They won't be if the team decides to not use them

Then you are rescinding your statement. Okay.

If it were all up to you, how would you enforce the rule?

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Then you are rescinding your statement. Okay.

If it were all up to you, how would you enforce the rule?

I'm not going to punish people left and right for not knowing the rules, or for being new and so forth. I just hope I WON'T have to punish anyone. I mean, I'm sure if we all agree on punishing anyone, it would be for extreme matters. Learning how to properly role play may take some time for certain people, so we have to bare with them.

Warnings are always nice .

But I honestly wouldn't warn anyone unless they knew the rules but wanted to "act cool" by not following them . It happens a lot on Graal.

[Draenin]

supathug818: a definite rule is that if you are not in an OOC zone then you ARE IN CHARACTER NO MATTER WHAT and if you are caught speaking in OOC terms without OOC brackets, then you will be first warned, then punished if it happens again.

That is how.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Draenin

That is how.

That would be irrelevant if we removed OOC brackets, now wouldn't it?

Think, my friend.

[Draenin]

You first.

You have been promoting the use of brackets, and now you want to remove them? Way to think.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

I'm not going to punish people left and right for not knowing the rules, or for being new and so forth

I didn't ask what you wouldn't do.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Draenin

You first.

You have been promoting the use of brackets, and now you want to remove them? Way to think.

Read everything I've been saying. Kai provided good reasoning as to why they wouldn't be needed, so this can be discussed during our first meeting. As I said, I'm not going to enforce anything that is not agreed upon the team. I'll be sure to bring up the whole OOC brackets topic when we do have the meeting.

[Craigus]

If your going to inforce RP'ing inforce it..at the moment your asking people to carry on how they normally do with double brackets, this is kind of stupid..most situations trades/teaming together etc can be made into a RP'ing conversation with a little imagination, brackets should just be used for unavoidable things such as "What level is a certain spell, or what level do i need to bless bile+3, these sorts of questions can't be turned into RP situations.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Craigus

If your going to inforce RP'ing inforce it..at the moment your asking people to carry on how they normally do with double brackets, this is kind of stupid..most situations trades/teaming together etc can be made into a RP'ing conversation with a little imagination, brackets should just be used for unavoidable things such as "What level is a certain spell, or what level do i need to bless bile+3, these sorts of questions can't be turned into RP situations.

Yes, all of this will, hopefully, be discussed by everyone in the team.

[Draenin]

Definitely. Thank you, Craig.

Gambet, read the rules of the team again. The part about how we enforce RPing.

Edit: I have a job thing to go to. If I come back to about 80 posts of Gambet rant, I'm going to throw grenades at random people. I'm not kidding.