Dictatorship Or Democracy?

[Kohola_KinG]

Originally Posted by Spikedude

I just figured Koho was bringing it up to say "I want to vote to change the manager now." Other people complained about them earlier in the thread, as though to say the same:



The reason I brought all of it up is that players will complain about whatever is in charge, no matter how good of a job they're doing. Look at almost all of the past managers. You can browse through the hall in the events place; can you really pull out more than like 3 or 4 that you thought did a good job? But somehow Era has managed to stay alive and making new stuff for like 15 years (without paying anybody for it). I don't think players should get the choice of who runs things, because it would change hands too quickly for anyone to get started on real projects, and some of the people that would get chosen would be horrible. Era is supposed to be more like a business than a government, and that's how we can be efficient. If everyone's out campaigning to the players to stay/get Manager, and still get cycled around before they can learn the ropes, nothing will get done.

The reason I got so defensive is because I thought this thread was supposed to be a personal attack on current management (saying "hey, we need new management, so let me vote on who it is").

Well you figured wrong.

This is not an attack. If you read what i said properly you would have seen that i said "im not saying it's a bad dictatorship but is it the right thing for era?" It was a suggestion to keep management right, not blasting them.

You have got this totally wrong and have went way of-topic.

[Fidel Castro]

There's one primary reason a democratic way of electing manager (whether by players or staff) would never work: collusion.

Era would become corrupt/more corrupt (depending on how a player views it currently, I don't actually know) and much more similar to the real world corruption we see everyday. I could see it now, items/gralats/even I'm sure someone would be desperate enough to offer USD for votes a certain way. There would be no way to police that, and never an honest vote.

[Spikedude]

I don't know how you make a thread talking about how "all staff burn out after a few months," then someone starts specifically naming current staff on Era as "not doing anything," all while mentioning "we need to be able to vote for new managers every few months," and don't expect it to be taken as an attack against the current staff on Era.

And my last post was definitely on topic, even if I rambled off a little hard at the end of the first. Era doesn't like anyone who is manager. If all players had a say in who was manager (even if it were just "public opinion polls"), we'd never have a manager last longer than one "term."

[Kohola_KinG]

Originally Posted by Spikedude

I don't know how you make a thread talking about how "all staff burn out after a few months," then someone starts specifically naming current staff on Era as "not doing anything," all while mentioning "we need to be able to vote for new managers every few months," and don't expect it to be taken as an attack against the current staff on Era.

And my last post was definitely on topic, even if I rambled off a little hard at the end of the first. Era doesn't like anyone who is manager. If all players had a say in who was manager (even if it were just "public opinion polls"), we'd never have a manager last longer than one "term."

I never said they burn out after a few months. I said things slow down but they don't burn out and things don't come to a halt. Who said staff don't do anything? This clearly proves you haven't read my post properly and carefully. It doesn't have to be a new manager. If the current manager is doing great then he can get to stay regarding he's voted back in. Yet again, you are getting off topic.

You are being super defensive because you are in the current management team. If you were fired yesterday or not staff, you would come on here with a totally different opinion. I've seen it happen x4488448 times.

I respect your opinion but you're getting it wrong.

This thread is not to bash any staff/managers. The thread was in the best interest of era and a way for players to rep current managers or for players to have a say in the game they play.

[Spikedude]

I understand now that you weren't trying to be offensive, I'm just saying that it was pretty easy to take it offensively based on the tone and content of the thread.

And I'm not current management or really even close to it, I'm a developer who has been around for a long time. I don't make any decisions as it is, other than what project I personally feel like working on at the time. I currently manage 0 people on Era (and can't even change rights, so I couldn't hire/fire someone if I wanted to). I more took it offensively because I've been positions like GBA before, where instead of doing visible work that people say "oh wow, he made ____," I was doing things constantly behind the scenes. It was always "This broke, fix it" or "This guy went inactive, replace him as leader." That's the kind of position management is in, and it gives everyone an automatic bad reputation when all you do is keep things normal (and never get to give that new thing). It just feels ridiculous to me when players who aren't on RC and actually being led by the manager complain about them. It isn't really their job at that level to be a popular guy with the people.

Maybe what we need is a revamped Player Services department. Have a "PSA" again (Player Services Admin) that would be elected by players. He can manage the directly player-impacting side of the house (like gang administration, PRAs, ETAs, etc), while a "Development Manager" helps make new stuff. The Development Manager can continue to be selected solely by the PWA. Obviously they could overrule the choice of PSA as well, but it would be "rule of thumb" to go with the player's choice except in extraordinary circumstances. It would be a win-win in my eyes.

[Kohola_KinG]

Originally Posted by Spikedude

I understand now that you weren't trying to be offensive, I'm just saying that it was pretty easy to take it offensively based on the tone and content of the thread.

And I'm not current management or really even close to it, I'm a developer who has been around for a long time. I don't make any decisions as it is, other than what project I personally feel like working on at the time. I currently manage 0 people on Era (and can't even change rights, so I couldn't hire/fire someone if I wanted to). I more took it offensively because I've been positions like GBA before, where instead of doing visible work that people say "oh wow, he made ____," I was doing things constantly behind the scenes. It was always "This broke, fix it" or "This guy went inactive, replace him as leader." That's the kind of position management is in, and it gives everyone an automatic bad reputation when all you do is keep things normal (and never get to give that new thing). It just feels ridiculous to me when players who aren't on RC and actually being led by the manager complain about them. It isn't really their job at that level to be a popular guy with the people.

Maybe what we need is a revamped Player Services department. Have a "PSA" again (Player Services Admin) that would be elected by players. He can manage the directly player-impacting side of the house (like gang administration, PRAs, ETAs, etc), while a "Development Manager" helps make new stuff. The Development Manager can continue to be selected solely by the PWA. Obviously they could overrule the choice of PSA as well, but it would be "rule of thumb" to go with the player's choice except in extraordinary circumstances. It would be a win-win in my eyes.

Honestly. I'm sure staff knows the difference between me being offensive and friendly. If i wanted to overthrow the manager, i would have attempted it with other measures but that's not what i want here. Definitely not.

You're right. We need somebody here for the players. I'm sure we can both agree that there is a missing gap between the players and staff. It's like they're against each-other all the time.

That's not right, staff should be for the players not themselves and the players should be for the staff. We need somebody who cares about the players and somebody who has power/influence. Somebody who can make sure players aren't being treated badly etc.

We need a respected report system. The current one is over looked,old and not really used in a way it should be.
This is getting off-topic again but i liked how your post was going. We also need that.

[Spikedude]

I sincerely apologize for derailing completely, and also for jumping to conclusions about your post, we just hear it a lot from players and we're all doing the best we can (so it gets pretty frustrating). But hear me out for another minute.

Originally Posted by Kohola_KinG

You're right. We need somebody here for the players. I'm sure we can both agree that there is a missing gap between the players and staff. It's like they're against each-other all the time.

That's not right, staff should be for the players not themselves and the players should be for the staff. We need somebody who cares about the players and somebody who has power/influence. Somebody who can make sure players aren't being treated badly etc.

We need a respected report system. The current one is over looked,old and not really used in a way it should be.
This is getting off-topic again but i liked how your post was going. We also need that.

I mean, that's always been what the PRA, GBA, and ETA were supposed to be (and at one point FAQA and GPA instead of PRA), but now they're all managed by the Manager (when we used to have a Dev Admin and Player Services Admin). And I've always personally thought of Manager as a position that should be able to focus on development, and as it turns out, most managers have been developers.

Maybe it would make sense to split the two entirely. And I think it does go along with your original post - players shouldn't be able to choose the development manager, because we all know most of them don't have the slightest idea what goes in to producing software. But Players know exactly what they want in terms of gang leaders, special events, rule enforcement, etc. Why not let them have more of a say in who gets to be Player Services Admin?

[Cubical]

this whole post is too long. you cant put kids in charge and you cant expect people to do a good job managing a server if they aren't getting paid to do it. the exception to this is jerret.

[Kohola_KinG]

Originally Posted by Cubical

this whole post is too long. you cant put kids in charge and you cant expect people to do a good job managing a server if they aren't getting paid to do it. the exception to this is jerret.

I guess. It's starting to get off-topic. Thread wasn't set up to bash any managers or staff. Zao's a good guy, i might not agree with everything he does but he's a friend. I want what's best for era and does many others.

Not everybody uses the forums. I'm not just speaking for myself in the stuff i say. I speak for many other people to.

Stephen has came up with something that i like. I think it should be implemented. It gives the players a chance to rate current managers. It can evolve from there.

[Tim_Rocks]

Can I be dictator again?

[Spikedude]

If the PSA answered directly to the players instead of to the manager, it would solve the problem of them not listening to players. In all the old circumstances, there was always a manager on top who was often solely focused on development. The day-to-day life of the server came second to a lot of them. If the PWA were willing to actively maintain both the PSA and Manager spot on Era, and were also willing to use an opinion poll as a strong determinant of who gets to be PSA, it would make the people who should be answering to players more accountable to public opinion (while keeping those who are doing the technical aspects shielded from dealing with it).

The development manager would be entirely in charge of getting things made, and the PSA would be in charge of releasing/supporting them. If the development manager wasn't getting things done quickly enough, the PSA would be in a good position to complain to PWA. And if the PSA doesn't get things done quick enough, the players could vote him out a month later. Everyone is accountable to somebody, and it's ultimately up to the players.

[Godzilla]

So when are we going to just strip the management position with a council of 5 that work together in a voting system? Managers are nothing but a failure due to every single point Amsel has made. Giving ONE person the power to ruin everything is ALWAYS bad. I know from experience because I'm slapped with a permanent ban because ONE person decided that he DIDN'T like me so he stripped me of my PRA position and banned me on false evidence. It's like a third world country, everyone is scared to stand up and do something because at the end of the day ONE person has the say and it doesn't matter how many others disagree.

[PhantosP2P]

Originally Posted by Godzilla

So when are we going to just strip the management position with a council of 5 that work together in a voting system? Managers are nothing but a failure due to every single point Amsel has made. Giving ONE person the power to ruin everything is ALWAYS bad. I know from experience because I'm slapped with a permanent ban because ONE person decided that he DIDN'T like me so he stripped me of my PRA position and banned me on false evidence. It's like a third world country, everyone is scared to stand up and do something because at the end of the day ONE person has the say and it doesn't matter how many others disagree.

Valikorlia has a manager more or less just to speak with the globals, as we seem to do much better with a council of friends that know how to handle things.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by PhantosP2P

Valikorlia has a manager more or less just to speak with the globals, as we seem to do much better with a council of friends that know how to handle things.

It's easier when your staff are most of your players.

[Rave_J]

Originally Posted by Crono

It's easier when your staff are most of your players.

LOL I know right!

I can see that you and snake doesn't have that problem on iphone era