You're welcome, Eurocenter

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by Unkownsoldier

Point proven. you want to know why Eurocenter stopped putting time in this game? Because of people like you who would develop for them. Where did that get you?

I think the iOS platform and other greedy ventures (http://games.eurocenter.fr/index.html) like that had more to do with Graal's lack of support not because we continued to develop.

Side note: Looks like they updated from the ugly blue thing it used to be, I guess they could afford better web developers now.

[Umat]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

Side note: Looks like they updated from the ugly blue thing it used to be, I guess they could afford better web developers now.

it's still ugly though...

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by Unkownsoldier

Point proven. you want to know why Eurocenter stopped putting time in this game? Because of people like you who would develop for them. Where did that get you?

That's the problem.
When most if not all of these servers were created, we believed we were making our own game, our own world to enjoy and play, now it has been literally stolen from us through a weak clause in Terms of Service. Why should developers like Dustyshouri, cbk1994, WhiteDragon, MrOmega, taylor, fowlplay4, myself and many others be stripped of credit for their success?
It's unethical, and like sssssss- said, it's asinine to even think of such a ludicrous alibi for their behavior.

I forgot to mention that Eurocenter lucked out on one factor, If it wasn't for the fact that they had such loyal as hell players, they wouldn't have even made it past 2006.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Unkownsoldier

Point proven. you want to know why Eurocenter stopped putting time in this game? Because of people like you who would develop for them. Where did that get you?

Ya, I guess we just helped Graal too much. I mean, who wouldn't take advantage of our being too helpful?

[devilsknite1]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Also, just because they didn't ask us to do it doesn't change the fact that nearly all of the content on Graal was made by players. And I mean nearly ALL of it. Even Classic, before hosting, was mostly made by players. Zone was made by players before Stefan took it over and made it a Gold server. G2k1? A team of developers picked by Stefan worked on it, and I don't think they were paid. Same for New World(which most of the biggest changes to Graal came from, like the NPC Server and the NW format).

Doesn't mean that because we weren't asked to do it, that none of the people who worked their ass off deserves to be recognized for it.

I've learned quite a bit in the GraalScript area purely because of the higher developers on Graal (Fowlplay, Dusty, Ziro, Chris, etc) and to say they don't deserve credit to anything is like saying every server in Graal should be completely remade by the Eurocenter team and themselves only. That obviously would make no sense.

On behalf of a player / [sort-of] developer, I thank you all for creating material on Graal and letting players and rising developers learn and enjoy the game more... For free.

PS: I was actually able to make a script for someone for $20.00 before... The guy quit Graal and still owes me $35.50. Let's just mug him

[sssssssssss]

To say its our fault that Eurocenter stopped developing for pc graal and that we stepped to far when we develop on servers they offer us to do so on is asinine. If the company was willing to offer the opportunity to do so, that doesn't automatically excempt a service provider and product provider from keeping up with the products and service they still provide, and trying to make them better. It also, being it's pretty much a 2 man group there at Eurocenter, doesn't excuse them from giving a thank you to people who helped keep their product going for free. Not to say it can't happen and people don't do it, just saying we are not the reason; they just don't really care enough.

[cbk1994]

It is more than a bit annoying to see them abandon us even more than before now that they have a chance of making substantial profit, but I know I'm not the only one who can say that Graal has had more influence over my life than almost anything else—my future career will likely involve programming on a regular basis, which is largely thanks to the experience I gained developing on Graal.

It's a complex issue. I don't know where I stand on it.

[Admins]

It's funny to see people complaining that "graal is dieing" but once we get some players the same people say "They scam us" (ok they were doing that before too).
We are trying to hire people from the Graal player base and also create ways for devs to make money by creating or managing servers, this is a work in progress.

[Vinka]

Originally Posted by Stefan

It's funny to see people complaining that "graal is dieing" but once we get some players the same people say "They scam us" (ok they were doing that before too).
We are trying to hire people from the Graal player base and also create ways for devs to make money by creating or managing servers, this is a work in progress.

Great to hear

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by Stefan

We are trying to hire people from the Graal player base and also create ways for devs to make money by creating or managing servers, this is a work in progress.

Well, If that's true then if you need a gani artist, thinktank, or just a kind public figure, just let me know for I have an open calendar.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Stefan

It's funny to see people complaining that "graal is dieing" but once we get some players the same people say "They scam us" (ok they were doing that before too).
We are trying to hire people from the Graal player base and also create ways for devs to make money by creating or managing servers, this is a work in progress.

No one is saying you're scamming them. I think it's a matter of appreciation, or the lack of.

[papajchris]

Originally Posted by Stefan

It's funny to see people complaining that "graal is dieing" but once we get some players the same people say "They scam us" (ok they were doing that before too).
We are trying to hire people from the Graal player base and also create ways for devs to make money by creating or managing servers, this is a work in progress.

Where are these players? They certainly aren't on PC graal. And what makes you think that Facebook graal will be a hit? This isn't 2001 anymore, there are THOUSANDS of other games like graal - with better graphics, support, and communities.

If you new anything at all about running a business, you would know that communication with your clients is essential. It's great you and Uni decided to drop by this week, but what about next week or the week after? You shouldn't be an impossible person to reach. Imagine if the Obama administration just went silent. The U.S. would be in the dark and I am sure much conspiracies and chaos would arise. The same is happening here. Want people to think Graal is alive? Give us an update once in a while, or heres one we can all agree on - Answer the ****ing question in the thread you post in. All to many times you ignore the main question of a topic. (Someone called Uni out on that earlier in this thread.) Use those things between your legs and people will begin to respect you once more.

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by papajchris

Where are these players? They certainly aren't on PC graal. And what makes you think that Facebook graal will be a hit? This isn't 2001 anymore, there are THOUSANDS of other games like graal - with better graphics, support, and communities.

If Angry Birds, Farmville, other "crappy" flash games can be hits. I believe Graal is just as able especially considering a lot of Graal's success is related to the social aspect of it and basically one of the only reasons it's still around today.

[0PiX0]

Originally Posted by Stefan

We are trying to hire people from the Graal player base and also create ways for devs to make money by creating or managing servers, this is a work in progress.

This is news. I look forward to hearing more about this.

[kia345]

Originally Posted by Stefan

It's funny to see people complaining that "graal is dieing" but once we get some players the same people say "They scam us" (ok they were doing that before too).
We are trying to hire people from the Graal player base and also create ways for devs to make money by creating or managing servers, this is a work in progress.

I think it's less about payment and more about the fact you're so detached from the developing community. You don't work with them as fellow Graal developers. You're not always here seeing what's being worked on and helping to push it along with your authority or giving them any sort of real help, there's no constantly being around to see what sort of things they need and what type of updates they - the lifeblood of Graal - prioritize. And then when updates like this come around, there's not even so much as a nod in the direction of the people who are really responsible, the ones who have been keeping Graal playable for nothing while you were off seeing how best to milk it.

You manage it like an already finished developing platform that no longer needs updates and marketing it like a kiddie, time-wasting game.

[Admins]

Originally Posted by kia345

You manage it like an already finished developing platform that no longer needs updates

We are updating it several times each month (server-updates), moving it to faster machines, working on a new much improved client version etc.

[papajchris]

Originally Posted by Stefan

We are updating it several times each month (server-updates), moving it to faster machines, working on a new much improved client version etc.

I personally experience more lag than i recall in the past

[Demisis_P2P]

Originally Posted by Stefan

We are trying to hire people from the Graal player base and also create ways for devs to make money by creating or managing servers, this is a work in progress.

I guess I'll wait for this to be implemented before I start working on my server then.

If I can earn even just $100 a day from Graal that'll probably be enough to get me to quit my current job and work on a server full time.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

I guess I'll wait for this to be implemented before I start working on my server then.

If I can earn even just $100 a day from Graal that'll probably be enough to get me to quit my current job and work on a server full time.

LOL. $100 a day? That's a hell of a lot of money, and the way you're so casual about it... LOL. "I'd be happy with only $100 a day. I could buy bread with that. Stale bread, but bread."

LOL.

[Demisis_P2P]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

LOL. $100 a day? That's a hell of a lot of money, and the way you're so casual about it... LOL. "I'd be happy with only $100 a day. I could buy bread with that. Stale bread, but bread."

LOL.

A server with 1000 players per day would only need 1/3 of those players to spend $1 per day for a 30% cut to make about $100 a day.
If you're managing/developing full time (8 hours a day) 7 days a week then $700 a week only works out to be about $12.50 an hour.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

A server with 1000 players per day would only need 1/3 of those players to spend $1 per day for a 30% cut to make about $100 a day.
If you're managing/developing full time (8 hours a day) 7 days a week then $700 a week only works out to be about $12.50 an hour.

Are you seriously developing 8 hours a day though? Also, you gotta think about server upkeep and other expenses on their end, and then the fact that you have a whole staff team too.

[SlikRick]

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

I guess I'll wait for this to be implemented before I start working on my server then.

If I can earn even just $100 a day from Graal that'll probably be enough to get me to quit my current job and work on a server full time.

You are greatly mistaken if you think they are going to pay you while your server is UC. UC servers do not bring in players to the game and keep them there like the Gold, Classic and Hosted servers. The only revenue they bring in is the money you pay to get Gold Dev time, so you are better off starting on your server now in hopes of getting it completed and up on one of the tabs when/if this ever gets implemented.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by SlikRick

You are greatly mistaken if you think they are going to pay you while your server is UC. UC servers do not bring in players to the game and keep them there like the Gold, Classic and Hosted servers. The only revenue they bring in is the money you pay to get Gold Dev time, so you are better off starting on your server now in hopes of getting it completed and up on one of the tabs when/if this ever gets implemented.

If his goal behind a server is making money, it doesn't make sense to create the server until you know you can actually make money off it eventually.

It would be like developing an iPhone app in a world where Apple hasn't yet said whether developers will receive a percentage of sales and yet still planning to make money off it. After all, you don't get paid during the development of the app!

[Vinka]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

If his goal behind a server is making money, it doesn't make sense to create the server until you know you can actually make money off it eventually.

It would be like developing an iPhone app in a world where Apple hasn't yet said whether developers will receive a percentage of sales and yet still planning to make money off it. After all, you don't get paid during the development of the app!

Well, that's just a risk you'd have to take.

If you don't enjoy the process of developing it, it would be pretty pointless however.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Stefan

It's funny to see people complaining that "graal is dieing" but once we get some players the same people say "They scam us" (ok they were doing that before too).
We are trying to hire people from the Graal player base and also create ways for devs to make money by creating or managing servers, this is a work in progress.

I think a lot of people are just frustrated about how you piggybacked on the work of scripters, graphic artists, levelers, etc. and haven't offered a word of thanks. They're not asking to be paid.

[Chompy]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

i think a lot of people are just frustrated about how you piggybacked on the work of scripters, graphic artists, levelers, etc. And haven't offered a word of thanks. They're not asking to be paid.

qft!!!

[Rufus]

Devs receive money for their help, or devs receive gelats for their help?

[Geno]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Devs receive money for their help, or devs receive gelats for their help?

silly ruf, Gelats are money!

[sssssssssss]

Stefan can u please read my pm so I can continue my server please? :o

[Demisis_P2P]

Patent pending.

[xAndrewx]

hmm i would prefer a bomy kinda server

[Galdor]

Imagine a community with competent moderators that has a mind of their own as well beside the rulebook they keep under their pillow every night, but also sane rules that don't just exist to just piss people off, perhaps giving you the ability to criticize without being locked, closed and bananed (not even allowed to talk about that, like wtf not? so ridiculous) but don't get me wrong they do improve (sometimes) like remember when we wasn't even allowed to post youtube links in that popular music thread without asking for permission first... but then again it was moved to the lounge so that doesn't really count

Anyways, and administrators that listen and take part of their small but cuddly cute dying community, the one making all the rules don't post anything himself and have no clue what hes customers want and the other one takes like a half year to get a forum reply from and then only get a message that says "hmm what do you mean?".

A community where the developers are appreciated for making all the content, get good updates like easier and upgraded tools to work with and of course not having to pay to dev (server renting I can understand but developing... seriously?)

And like listen to the awesome ideas that people post, like my 3d terrain idea (yes it is awesome) also has layer tiles, premade scripts and stuff like that baked into it, and is from 2009! and still haven't even got a single care.

[kia345]

yeah but galdor, they're trying to make money, so any of the neglect and short ends of the stick we get are okay!! /blindjustification


I miss indy devs with big hearts, coding from their bed in their NY flat. Slapping shareware.txt files into their game .rars, or asking only that you get them a (root)beer if you ever see them in public as payment for the game.

[Unkownsoldier]

Originally Posted by Galdor

Imagine a community with competent moderators that has a mind of their own as well beside the rulebook they keep under their pillow every night, but also sane rules that don't just exist to just piss people off, perhaps giving you the ability to criticize without being locked, closed and bananed (not even allowed to talk about that, like wtf not? so ridiculous) but don't get me wrong they do improve (sometimes) like remember when we wasn't even allowed to post youtube links in that popular music thread without asking for permission first... but then again it was moved to the lounge so that doesn't really count

Anyways, and administrators that listen and take part of their small but cuddly cute dying community, the one making all the rules don't post anything himself and have no clue what hes customers want and the other one takes like a half year to get a forum reply from and then only get a message that says "hmm what do you mean?".

A community where the developers are appreciated for making all the content, get good updates like easier and upgraded tools to work with and of course not having to pay to dev (server renting I can understand but developing... seriously?)

And like listen to the awesome ideas that people post, like my 3d terrain idea (yes it is awesome) also has layer tiles, premade scripts and stuff like that baked into it, and is from 2009! and still haven't even got a single care.

I understand that you would like to develop for "free" because it would help the game, draw new/old players in, and better your own skills which we assume Admins want.

Yet, truth be told being able to develop is a service they provide us. In return we must pay for this service, like most other companies require. For us to benefit off of their programs for free, would no longer make them a profitable company, but a charity. Take a look at it from this perspective, you want to learn self defense, so you take up a local martial arts class (costing you money.) It would be nice for them to teach you for free, because it would help protect you and others, which is a good thing. Yet, they like EuroCenter, is a business and they need profits for what they provide. What they provide benefits us, and they are kind enough to give us development tools (which a lot of games don't normally provide).

I know they have progressed from updating the computer client version and have moved on to mobile devices/facebook, so in all likeliness the new development tool updates they promised(?) would probably be the final developmental update for the game (other than scripting variables etc.) So it is just time for us players to accept that they aren't our friend, we are the customer they are the provider.

[Galdor]

Originally Posted by Unkownsoldier

Yet, truth be told being able to develop is a service they provide us. In return we must pay for this service, like most other companies require. For us to benefit off of their programs for free, would no longer make them a profitable company, but a charity. Take a look at it from this perspective, you want to learn self defense, so you take up a local martial arts class (costing you money.) It would be nice for them to teach you for free, because it would help protect you and others, which is a good thing. Yet, they like EuroCenter, is a business and they need profits for what they provide. What they provide benefits us, and they are kind enough to give us development tools (which a lot of games don't normally provide).

How is making content for them and at the same time paying money for that the same as paying for martial arts classes?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Galdor

How is making content for them and at the same time paying money for that the same as paying for martial arts classes?

What? You've never taken a martial arts class that you've had to pay for and teach yourself?

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Unkownsoldier

I understand that you would like to develop for "free" because it would help the game, draw new/old players in, and better your own skills which we assume Admins want.

Yet, truth be told being able to develop is a service they provide us. In return we must pay for this service, like most other companies require. For us to benefit off of their programs for free, would no longer make them a profitable company, but a charity. Take a look at it from this perspective, you want to learn self defense, so you take up a local martial arts class (costing you money.) It would be nice for them to teach you for free, because it would help protect you and others, which is a good thing. Yet, they like EuroCenter, is a business and they need profits for what they provide. What they provide benefits us, and they are kind enough to give us development tools (which a lot of games don't normally provide).

I know they have progressed from updating the computer client version and have moved on to mobile devices/facebook, so in all likeliness the new development tool updates they promised(?) would probably be the final developmental update for the game (other than scripting variables etc.) So it is just time for us players to accept that they aren't our friend, we are the customer they are the provider.

Yes, they are the provider and we are the customers. However, what we are discussing is if they are a good provider.


Also, there is no need for an analogy. The situation is as simple as this:

We are paying to develop content for Graal. We get no money from the content we make.


Sure it's legal for them to do this, but it's hardly a good model. It means that all the skilled developers will leave because they aren't getting anything out of this deal. It also just generally annoys everyone because it smells like a scam. This isn't theoretical, it's really what happens (proof: look at the this thread and the dozens like it before, and then look at how fast staff disappear from servers after only short stays).

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

We are paying to develop content for Graal. We get no money from the content we make.


Sure it's legal for them to do this, but it's hardly a good model. It means that all the skilled developers will leave because they aren't getting anything out of this deal. It also just generally annoys everyone because it smells like a scam. This isn't theoretical, it's really what happens (proof: look at the this thread and the dozens like it before, and then look at how fast staff disappear from servers after only short stays).

That's pretty succinct. End of day, Graal needs an incentive program for developers.

[skillmaster19]

If you are a scripter and hate reading, skip to the bottom.

All of the experienced developers should all suddenly stop developing for Graal, especially those working on mobile and facebook servers. There aren't that many amazing scripters left on Graal, maybe 10-20 at most. Then Stefan will be forced to script everything himself, "hire" inexperienced developers, or speak with Unixmad to actually give developers some kind of incentive. Facebook Graal is going to be huge, and with the huge income from iPhone, he should easily be able to hire & pay the best of the best developers to work on the mobile and Facebook version of Classic. I am sure most of them would work a few hours a day for a little extra money, not being paid as full time jobs, but paid for completing specific projects. There are plenty of decent LAT's, so that won't be a problem. Even if there isn't, Stefan could easily announce level development to the public and offer admin positions to people who master level development, it really only takes a few weeks to learn.(few days to learn, few weeks to actually tile right)
Thousands of iPhone players would be willing to make graphics just to be an admin on the server, so that won't need paying either. However, scripting requires several months to learn and years of experience to master.

TO SCRIPTERS:
We need to organize a day for us all to stop scripting all at once. There aren't that many great scripters on Graal, so it won't be that difficult. I do not consider myself an amazing scripter, don't think I am trying to sound like me stopping scripting will do anything. However, many others quitting will help.


To Players:
If you are a Gold subscription, don't renew, and stefan will see that graal needs to go fully free to play and not just removed observer mode. Zodiac and Era already added gelat shops, why should they still have limited heads?
I understand this is difficult, but it may help in graal becoming free to play forever.

If you are a classic subscription, don't bother quitting as Stefan isn't making any more money off of you, other than you raising the playercount,thus attracting more players.

If you are a trial and for some reason on the forums, don't subscribe. Graal will likely become free to play soon and your gelats will likely only become good for in game cash shops.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

Sure it's legal for them to do this, but it's hardly a good model.

Yeah, a model such as this will never work. It's not a perfect example, but there are still undeniable comparisons.

And, you guys need to quit saying that you make content for Eurocenter. That has never been the case. You've made content for friends, strangers, and mostly yourself. You are using Graal's tools to upload content to Graal's servers.

Could there be more updates for developers? Should their be more appreciation for the developers? Sure. But, you're all fully capable of deciding if the money is worth the enjoyment/effort you put in.