Dear Graal Online Staff...

[Devil_Lord2]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

The point of the new system was to replace the old one. The charging aspect of it is just unixmad's greed manifesting itself. In the Era thread it was 20k for a head, so if those prices carry over it will become even more obvious.

unixmad will slowly but surely run this platform into the ground as well as he's done before.

fowlplay4, I must admit I'm slightly upset from this post.


Because it says I can't positive rep you for a while.

[xAndrewx]

charging for it on iEra was my idea.

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

charging for it on iEra was my idea.

I believe we've found our unixmad2 then.

[Hiro]

how about we charge a few cents every time you swing a sword or take a step or pull on a wall

then we can start charging a few cents for every time you try and talk on client. and then we can charge a few cents for every time you post on OGCC

with all these micro-payments, we won't even realize we're still paying full price!

[ffcmike]

I recall making an eventually deleted post within one of the earlier threads regarding this in the Era section, which was as follows:

I hope you realise that if you provide customers with a bad deal there is a decreased chance that they will purchase from you again in future. Whereas if you provide customers a good deal there is an increased chance that they will make further purchases from you.

Interestingly I've had conversations with iPhone players on PC Classic where they've claimed that they have quit iClassic because of this new policy.
Undoubtedly anything that charges will always be unpopular to an extent and some will react more thoroughly than others, but it seems as if what as always been one of the biggest contributors to what makes Graal...... Graal, has been ruined.
There are some things you just not should put a price tag on.

[MattKan]

People are quitting. I've seen it and experienced it firsthand.

[xAndrewx]

looks like the playercount has stayed static if you ask me

[Rufus]

35 shields were uploaded this week, 318 the week before that, 653 two weeks ago, 658 three weeks ago, 375 four weeks ago.

[oo_jazz_oo]

I hope you enjoy those 35 dollars Stefan. I really hope you do.

[ffcmike]

I wonder if the creation of an "Upload Pack" which would allow an infinite number of future uploads but for a few dollars more could possibly achieve a finer balance between income and graphic uploads.

[oo_jazz_oo]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

I wonder if the creation of an "Upload Pack" which would allow an infinite number of future uploads but for a few dollars more could possibly achieve a finer balance between income and graphic uploads.

Still seems ridiculous to charge for uploads at all.

I want to know what was the logic behind this choice? Is the game not making enough money as it is? (Serious question)
Can the servers not take the amount of uploads/players on at a time?

If its space thats an issue, then this price still seems quite ridiculous. As i'm sure it doesn't cost 1 dollar for the extra space to host a couple KB file.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by oo_jazz_oo

Still seems ridiculous to charge for uploads at all.

In the matter of personal ideals I agree, this is detrimental to the fact that one of the greatest features of Graal as a game is that you can build your own unique identity, the often used excuse "optional customisation" simply doesn't cover it.
This is really one of the base foundations of the game they should be trying to build sell-able updates on-top of rather than market it directly, it essentially should be acting as a glue.

I'm only proposing the possibility of a fairer system on the assumption that the system won't be removed entirely.

[xAndrewx]

you all know you can make in-game money from various jobs right?

[oo_jazz_oo]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

you all know you can make in-game money from various jobs right?

Perhaps on Era, but were talking about Classic, where there is no way to get money but by tedious multi-hour endeavors.

And thats the problem. If there were jobs to make money on Classic, this wouldn't be that much of an issue.

[Tricxta]

The ghetto farms okayish (1k-2k/hr, depending on how many noobs there are)... just give 2000 hours of your life to iClassic and your all set or you could just ruin your battery and afk the whole thing. Your choice.

[MattKan]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

you all know you can make in-game money from various jobs right?

It's much easier to make money on Era iPhone, though.

[xAndrewx]

so what do you recommend? every 10 uploads you get one free?

[Tricxta]

I think its fair to charge 20k for a head, classic does it for ****ty heads all the time, this way you get to choose a head that you actually like, However I disagree to the payment of uploading a shield. Take the price of uploading a shield down to 500 which still requires work/money to obtain but you dont loose half your life in the process.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

so what do you recommend? every 10 uploads you get one free?

Originally Posted by ffcmike

I wonder if the creation of an "Upload Pack" which would allow an infinite number of future uploads but for a few dollars more could possibly achieve a finer balance between income and graphic uploads.

Would you rather have $35 for 35 shield uploads a week, or (hypothetically: give or take) $150 for 350 uploads a week?

I also believe this would act as a slight reciprocation for the fact that you pay to upload a graphic only for another player to then be able to wear that same graphic for free (assuming this is still an issue), as this price would be covering all future uploads you make.

[oo_jazz_oo]

There are just so many problems with this...

You spend hours to pay to upload a shield for everyone to use.

There is just nothing right about that statement.

[Tricxta]

There is nothing right with charging money for a dead pc graal game yet people still pay, why do you think stefan or unixmad is gunna change it anyway. If people are still paying why would they care?

[Admins]

Originally Posted by oo_jazz_oo

There are just so many problems with this...

You know that all those shields are lagging the players and by making it free we would get even more of them? It costs money to serve the files, and it costs work to check and approve them, that's why it needs to cost something. We also made it relatively cheap, and most players seem to like the system (costs some money but you get it relatively quickly online).
You don't always need to cry OH NO NOW I MUST GO AND CUT SOME BUSHES TO GET MY BEAUTIFUL SHIELD ONLINE
Prices can always be changed although like I said there is more about it than just 2k hard drive space or so.

[DuBsTeRmAn]

Originally Posted by Stefan

You know that all those shields are lagging the players and by making it free we would get even more of them? It costs money to serve the files, and it costs work to check and approve them, that's why it needs to cost something. We also made it relatively cheap, and most players seem to like the system (costs some money but you get it relatively quickly online).
You don't always need to cry OH NO NOW I MUST GO AND CUT SOME BUSHES TO GET MY BEAUTIFUL SHIELD ONLINE

Love how you said that, really. Though yeah i agree, its not much work cutting some bushes.

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by DuBsTeRmAn

Love how you said that, really. Though yeah i agree, its not much work cutting some bushes.

It is when it takes 10 hours to accumulate the amount needed.

[oo_jazz_oo]

Originally Posted by Stefan

You know that all those shields are lagging the players and by making it free we would get even more of them?

Usually, when one goes into the online gaming business, they have servers that can appropriately serve that purpose.

Originally Posted by Stefan

It costs money to serve the files, and it costs work to check and approve them, that's why it needs to cost something. We also made it relatively cheap, and most players seem to like the system (costs some money but you get it relatively quickly online).

It does cost money to host files on a server, but definitely not 1$ per image file.
And 'relatively cheap' as compared to what? The actual price of the game?
If thats your measure, then yes. Uploading shields is cheaper than buying the game itself. (Not by much, mind you)
And I dont know where you get your information that players like the system. I read through countless complaints on facebook.

Originally Posted by Stefan

You don't always need to cry OH NO NOW I MUST GO AND CUT SOME BUSHES TO GET MY BEAUTIFUL SHIELD ONLINE

Your right, you don't have to. But how else do you get money....oh right, theres that convenient little purchase button that puts money into your account. Brilliant alternative.

Originally Posted by Stefan

Prices can always be changed although like I said there is more about it than just 2k hard drive space or so.

Prices do need to be adjusted.
Thor had the best idea, making an upload pack for players to purchase...then you get money for server space, and people dont pay an arm and a leg to upload shields.

[fowlplay4]

Well since hats and heads are sold without issue, making them cost money but provide an option to 'Submit for Public Consumption' (include a free to submit not necessarily get uploaded and usable) option and if enough of them are of high enough quality, create a new store and sell them, and as a sign of good faith give the artist a 5-10% cut per sale.

It would actually give the people who spend time making the heads and hats incentive to continue making them. So instead of getting gralats from just one player, you get it from multiple.

Obviously submitting stolen work would be a problem but the end result definitely seems worth it as compared to the system currently proposed.

Shields and swords should be free though, or 100 gralats if you really insist are on charging for it.

[DuBsTeRmAn]

Holy hell, Thats long. 10 Hours bushcutting.. why do you still play that game?

[Tricxta]

when your a real iNoob time has no meaning :P

[Crono]

Originally Posted by DuBsTeRmAn

Holy hell, Thats long. 10 Hours bushcutting.. why do you still play that game?

ppl like to just sit around and socialize. they're all young teens (like we were when we started Graal) so it's not like they have anything to do.

hell i dont either i should be playing iphone

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by Crono

ppl like to just sit around and socialize. they're all young teens (like we were when we started Graal) so it's not like they have anything to do.

hell i dont either i should be playing iphone

got ffm?

[WhiteDragon]

I think everyone should remember how rarely we get to discuss these things with Stefan, and how sarcasm usually doesn't do much except make things confusing and heat up the discussion. It's best to think critically and utilize this opportunity we have to make a point.



Let me throw some information around to orient the discussion:

• Graal is for-profit. They want to make money.
• Graal is private and by law doesn't need to reveal to us how much money they are making.
• It costs money to run Graal. It isn't a small amount of money judging by the number of servers required, mentioned by Stefan.

Of course, on the other hand, it's also worth mentioning that the PC community has felt 'gypped' for a long time and there is trust lacking that when Graal charges for something, it isn't just trying to bludgeon all the money out of its customers.


Something that has always contributed to this sense of being gypped is that players often are charged for doing things which help Graal out. Such as:

• Players getting charged for rights to develop.
• Players getting charged for servers.
• Players not getting any money back for running Classic servers.

(I'm not saying any of these are necessarily right or wrong, but that they exist.)

So charging for player uploads, whether it's good or not, definitely doesn't look or feel good considering Graal's track record.

Many probably think: "Who's to say that they aren't just trying to do the same dance that makes us pay to do work for them?"

Whether it's micro- or mega- transactions, the sense of being gypped won't go away if these sorts of charges exist.




The way to fix this problem is to:

• Be more transparent, and let the players know exactly how much it costs for bandwidth and storage of shields, so they don't feel robbed when they pay for one, but instead that they are holding their own weight.
• Start giving back. It makes sense that people need to pay for a server when they start out: because it's making Graal lose money. But once it goes Classic-tab, the server should not only be free (as it is), but the staff should get paid, with actual money. Developing is hard work, and no one likes being robbed for doing work. Pay a percentage of sales back to the developers (possibly based on server population).

I don't think this feeling of being gypped is a hard one to fix, it just requires some time to figure out the numbers. If that time is invested, expect a good response from the playerbase. I think this investment from Eurocenter is a reasonable thing for all the players to ask for.

[Crono]

Either way players keep the PC version alive both as 'players' and 'developers'. Despite the worst, a lot of us kept going.

You're welcome.

[WanDaMan]

You get money from sponsers, events, quests; just to name a few.

On iEra if people help us develop something we also give them a free upload or if we do a competition and get everyone involved on the server we also give other freebies.

We understand that players are funding everything so we have a lot of fun with them we constantly participate and get involved in events on the server to make it more enjoyable for them.

[Devil_Lord2]

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

You get money from sponsers, events, quests; just to name a few.

On iEra if people help us develop something we also give them a free upload or if we do a competition and get everyone involved on the server we also give other freebies.

We understand that players are funding everything so we have a lot of fun with them we constantly participate and get involved in events on the server to make it more enjoyable for them.

I'd appreciate it if you let iClassic in on some of the 'having a lot of fun,
getting involved in events, and making it more enjoyable' secrets.



-------------



I personally think players should be payed 'slightly' for making their 'codes' as they call them,
or others would say heads, bodies, shields, swords, and hats.
Perhaps 10-20% profit for each head, hat or body bought.
Shields and Swords could be private, global, or for guild members.


Possibly each person could be limited to 5 or so uploads.
Some of the current staff members could search through some of the shields and swords they consider crap and delete them.

Furthermore, it could also cost money to delete one of the five already uploaded to be able to have a different thing submitted.
(Gralets Purchase, not USD, maybe USD for 10-20 uploads)


This takes care of the trust issue if the prices are reasonable.
It gives players a reason to take the time to do fix up the sword or shield how they want since they can only submit up to ?5.
And it would, I assume, save space on the server. Stefan already said it could be done to have the swords or shields private.
And the creators would even be happy; especially if they developed a nice hat, head, or body.


I agree to different money systems as bushwhacking can get old ;o
Why not have different type of ways to make money on iClassic too?
I don't think I'd mind picking cotton for money.

[Kamaeru]

Here's my dilemma:

When Graal first decided to charge money to its players, what did it charge them for?

A server. What server?

Graal2001. Was it worth the money?

Yes.

Are the things Graal is now charging money for worth purchasing compared to Graal2001 in its entirety?

Have the management and main influences (as far as thought goes) changed?

No.

Stefan, we expect you to produce something good for the price you ask, just as if, say, we hear that Shigeru Miyamoto is going to release a new game and the price is going up, the players are really going to put the pressure on the man to produce something worth the money.

And I really do think that Graal2001 is up there with Super Mario Bros. 3, being one of the very best video games ever created that I have personally played.

Why not make another good server worth playing, and furthermore worth paying for?

[Heroin]

How to do nothing at all and still make money, graal style:

Step 1: Score free graphics made by PC-Graalians over the years.
Step 2: Sell those graphics via micro transactions to people using the new platform.
Step 3: Charge the kids on the new platform even more money to get their custom stuff uploaded. They pay money to do work for Graalonline (just like any owner of an UC server, I guess..)
Step 4: Sell the new graphics to everyone else.

Now that's an awesome business-model!

[NewYorkerNick]

Just let the developers run their company the way they want and enjoy the game. The game is incredibly cheap and only expensive if you don't have self control. None of us really know the profits or statistics so we can't assume or claim anything. We will see what happens, but so far it has been super positive with the newer players--the most important demographic business wise if we wanna keep the Graal servers running.

It ain't that serious folks. It really ain't.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by NewYorkerNick

Just let the developers run their company the way they want and enjoy the game. The game is incredibly cheap and only expensive if you don't have self control. None of us really know the profits or statistics so we can't assume or claim anything. We will see what happens, but so far it has been super positive with the newer players--the most important demographic business wise if we wanna keep the Graal servers running.

It ain't that serious folks. It really ain't.

The post above you has less to do with players playing the game for cheap and more to do with developers having to pay to have their content uploaded so that Stefan and Co. are the ones that make money off of it.

[Door]

Originally Posted by NewYorkerNick

Just let the developers run their company the way they want and enjoy the game. The game is incredibly cheap and only expensive if you don't have self control. None of us really know the profits or statistics so we can't assume or claim anything. We will see what happens, but so far it has been super positive with the newer players--the most important demographic business wise if we wanna keep the Graal servers running.

It ain't that serious folks. It really ain't.

To be perfectly honest, it's the duty of customers to complain. I know that might sound silly, but I genuinely mean it.

If no one complained about products or services, quality would continue to fall (or at the VERY least never improve). Developers should never run a company the way they want--a business is run to get customers, so it should always be run the way the customers want. However, complaining serves a different purpose on Graal. Because it does not actually push Stefan and Unixmad to make changes, it has simply become a pastime of players.

In fact, Stefan and Unixmad should be thankful that Graal has such a massive complaining community. Without this, most people would probably leave. A lot of people probably stick around because they think complaining will eventually lead to improvements--especially since they complain in such great numbers. Complaining gives a whole lot of Graalians purpose when they normally would have none. They certainly aren't offered anything better to do in the actual game. At this point, complaining is part of Graal's content and gameplay.

So yeah, complaints pretty much save Graal's butt on a regular basis.

You're welcome, Stefan!

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Door

To be perfectly honest, it's the duty of customers to complain. I know that might sound silly, but I genuinely mean it.

If no one complained about products or services, quality would continue to fall (or at the VERY least never improve). Developers should never run a company the way they want--a business is run to get customers, so it should always be run the way the customers want. However, complaining serves a different purpose on Graal. Because it does not actually push Stefan and Unixmad to make changes, it has simply become a pastime of players.

In fact, Stefan and Unixmad should be thankful that Graal has such a massive complaining community. Without this, most people would probably leave. A lot of people probably stick around because they think complaining will eventually lead to improvements--especially since they complain in such great numbers. Complaining gives a whole lot of Graalians purpose when they normally would have none. They certainly aren't offered anything better to do in the actual game. At this point, complaining is part of Graal's content and gameplay.

So yeah, complaints pretty much save Graal's butt on a regular basis.

You're welcome, Stefan!

"It now costs 1000 gralats if you wish to file a complaint".